Americans are nuts

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Jamiet99uk
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Americans are nuts

#1 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat Apr 29, 2023 9:09 pm

Apparently in America, any schoolteacher who allows 11 year old children to view the penis of Michaelangelo's David, is evil and must be hounded out of their job.

Meanwhile, also in America, apparently nothing can be done to stop children being massacred by gun-owning nutcases on a regular basis.

Protecting children from seeing a statue's penis? = YES
Protecting children from violent death? = NO

Nuts. Insanity. A country of collective psychopathy.
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Re: Americans are nuts

#2 Post by Octavious » Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:43 pm

You want the gun control argument again, or a discussion on censorship in art, or whether parents should have influence over the running of their children's schools?

Or just some general Yank bashing?
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Re: Americans are nuts

#3 Post by Octavious » Sun Apr 30, 2023 3:06 pm

Let's have a look at an undisputed cultural artifact recovered from the Roman town of Herculaneum, a stone's throw from the more famous Pompeii.

The British museum's description of the object is
Marble statue showing the god Pan making love to a she-goat, Villa of the Papyri, Herculaneum.
https://www.bmimages.com/preview.asp?image=01183689001

So... God fucks a goat...

Suitable for children? Would you impose any age limit for school trips?
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Re: Americans are nuts

#4 Post by flash2015 » Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:49 pm

You are exaggerating a bit here. It was a single Christian charter school in Florida which did this. I mean it is Florida - what do you expect?
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Re: Americans are nuts

#5 Post by Octavious » Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:25 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:49 pm
You are exaggerating a bit here. It was a single Christian charter school in Florida which did this. I mean it is Florida - what do you expect?
Jamie always does.

But, on the subject of the censorship of art for the sake of the children, would you take action regarding Pan and the She-Goat?

What I'm trying to establish is whether we believe that the principle of censorship is sound, and the only difference between us and the Florida "nutters" is where we feel the line should be drawn, or whether some of us believe that art should never be censored
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Re: Americans are nuts

#6 Post by Octavious » Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:28 pm

Some other art to consider. This one a Renaissance piece decorating the Basilica Santa Maria Gloriose dei Frari in Venice. An exquisite study of the human form and social commentary of the racial politics of the day.
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Re: Americans are nuts

#7 Post by flash2015 » Mon May 01, 2023 12:22 am

Octavious wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:25 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:49 pm
You are exaggerating a bit here. It was a single Christian charter school in Florida which did this. I mean it is Florida - what do you expect?
Jamie always does.

But, on the subject of the censorship of art for the sake of the children, would you take action regarding Pan and the She-Goat?

What I'm trying to establish is whether we believe that the principle of censorship is sound, and the only difference between us and the Florida "nutters" is where we feel the line should be drawn, or whether some of us believe that art should never be censored
Censored to whom? Adults or children? Art shouldn't be censored at all for adults...but I believe there are genuine concerns in the US about the oversexualization of minors.

For minors, context is important. If minors go on a school field trip to a museum which displays different art from different time periods (where this is one of the sculptures on display) this is fine. If minors go on a school field trip to a museum exhibition "Bestiality In The Ancient World" where this was one of many pieces showing similar sex acts, probably not so fine.

You would probably question the judgement of a teacher that used a picture of this sculpture in a classroom lesson. The teacher would need a very good reason for using a picture of this specific sculpture in their lesson.

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Re: Americans are nuts

#8 Post by orathaic » Mon May 01, 2023 8:21 am

flash2015 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 12:22 am
Octavious wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:25 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:49 pm
You are exaggerating a bit here. It was a single Christian charter school in Florida which did this. I mean it is Florida - what do you expect?
Jamie always does.

But, on the subject of the censorship of art for the sake of the children, would you take action regarding Pan and the She-Goat?

What I'm trying to establish is whether we believe that the principle of censorship is sound, and the only difference between us and the Florida "nutters" is where we feel the line should be drawn, or whether some of us believe that art should never be censored
Censored to whom? Adults or children? Art shouldn't be censored at all for adults...but I believe there are genuine concerns in the US about the oversexualization of minors.
I'm not sure this is true.

Oversexualizationnof minors isn't a problem. Using words like penis and vagina with 4 and 5 year olds so they can describe their own anatomy (and coincidentally empower them to report sex abuse) is not sexualisation. But it is something parents in some places have ben 'paniced' about.

It sells well in some circles to call this sexualisation of minors. Meanwhile in those same circles purity rings and beauty pageants and daddy daughter balls places young girls (and it is particular to girls) in simulations of highly sexualised rituals, which normalised a very unhealthy sexualisation and objectification of girls, but is seen as perfectly healthy.

There is a shocking lack of self-awareness, and an unwillingness to reflect on the unhealthy attitudes which 'conservative family values' seems to embody.

But to the point, drag performee are being sexualised when they read stories to children in libraries. This unwanted sexualisation of adult drag performers is a perfect example of the lack of interest in sexualisation of minors. What they care about is not exposing young minds to anything non-conformity. As if hiding the existence of LGBTQ+ folks (not that drag is inherently queer) will prevent their children from being LGBTQ+ (ignorance will not change who they are, only how they are able to cope in a healthy way with who they are... Ultimately this is bad for the LGBTQ+ children of conservation Americans).

Would you censor pantomimes for children? (Nb according to wikipedia panto consists of:
Principal boy - Traditionally a young woman in men's clothing
Panto dame - Traditionally a middle-aged man in drag
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Re: Americans are nuts

#9 Post by Octavious » Mon May 01, 2023 12:17 pm

orathaic wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:21 am
Using words like penis and vagina with 4 and 5 year olds so they can describe their own anatomy (and coincidentally empower them to report sex abuse) is not sexualisation.
Indeed not, but you are picking very low hanging fruit with this statement and not really adding anything to the discussion
orathaic wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:21 am
Meanwhile in those same circles purity rings and beauty pageants and daddy daughter balls places young girls (and it is particular to girls) in simulations of highly sexualised rituals, which normalised a very unhealthy sexualisation and objectification of girls, but is seen as perfectly healthy.
Ok, beauty pageants I get can be rather dodgy ... but you're going to have to explain the other two
orathaic wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:21 am
drag performee are being sexualised when they read stories to children in libraries
You what? Why are drag performers reading stories to children in libraries?

But, back to the god fucks goat statue... suitable for all ages or not?
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Re: Americans are nuts

#10 Post by Octavious » Mon May 01, 2023 2:27 pm

Something more modern, perhaps? Emanuele Stifano's tribute to La Spigolatrice di Sapri. A true inspiration to young girls
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Re: Americans are nuts

#11 Post by flash2015 » Mon May 01, 2023 2:40 pm

orathaic wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:21 am
I'm not sure this is true.

Oversexualizationnof minors isn't a problem. Using words like penis and vagina with 4 and 5 year olds so they can describe their own anatomy (and coincidentally empower them to report sex abuse) is not sexualisation. But it is something parents in some places have ben 'paniced' about.

It sells well in some circles to call this sexualisation of minors. Meanwhile in those same circles purity rings and beauty pageants and daddy daughter balls places young girls (and it is particular to girls) in simulations of highly sexualised rituals, which normalised a very unhealthy sexualisation and objectification of girls, but is seen as perfectly healthy.

There is a shocking lack of self-awareness, and an unwillingness to reflect on the unhealthy attitudes which 'conservative family values' seems to embody.
You have just shown me you know little about the political debate in the US. All you have done here is create a strawman, regurgitate talking points and engage in whataboutism. You are the poster child for why these discussions seem to go toxic very quickly.
But to the point, drag performee are being sexualised when they read stories to children in libraries. This unwanted sexualisation of adult drag performers is a perfect example of the lack of interest in sexualisation of minors. What they care about is not exposing young minds to anything non-conformity. As if hiding the existence of LGBTQ+ folks (not that drag is inherently queer) will prevent their children from being LGBTQ+ (ignorance will not change who they are, only how they are able to cope in a healthy way with who they are... Ultimately this is bad for the LGBTQ+ children of conservation Americans).

Would you censor pantomimes for children? (Nb according to wikipedia panto consists of:
Principal boy - Traditionally a young woman in men's clothing
Panto dame - Traditionally a middle-aged man in drag
Rather than go into the weeds of specific skirmishes in the culture war, I believe there are two main questions here:
(a) Can exposure to hypersexualized content at a young age cause some minors to experiment sexually earlier than they otherwise would have?
(b) Can exposure/encouragement of alternative lifestyles at a young age encourage some children to partake in these alternative lifestyles...who would have otherwise been just as happy with a traditional lifestyle?

I suspect for (b) you are suggesting no...and make an analogy to left handedness (rates of left-handedness rose quickly after we stopped discouraging in). But analogy != evidence. You can't just assume this. The onus on you would be to actually prove it.

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Re: Americans are nuts

#12 Post by Octavious » Mon May 01, 2023 7:31 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 12:22 am
Censored to whom? Adults or children? Art shouldn't be censored at all for adults...but I believe there are genuine concerns in the US about the oversexualization of minors.
Children, especially younger children. I don't think Jamie was implying that American adults are so nuts they demand censorship for themselves.

Having said that, of course, in Europe we are doing exactly that with foreign news sources. So clearly we are nuts.
flash2015 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 12:22 am
For minors, context is important. If minors go on a school field trip to a museum which displays different art from different time periods (where this is one of the sculptures on display) this is fine
To a certain extent, perhaps. But when I was around 7 at school we made Viking shields with our names on in runes, and painted something that vaguely resembled a long ship. The rape and pillage aspect was glossed over somewhat.

As a young child Romans are cool because they have gladiators and armies like a tortoise, and slightly tedious because they spent so much time having baths and building roads. The whole goat fucking aspect would certainly not have fallen into the tedious category, but would have resulted in a lot of difficult questions and inadequate answers that wouldn't benefit the children in any way, regardless of context.
flash2015 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 12:22 am
You would probably question the judgement of a teacher that used a picture of this sculpture in a classroom lesson. The teacher would need a very good reason for using a picture of this specific sculpture in their lesson.
Possibly so. Context is everything when it comes to such stories, and I don't know enough to judge. From a personal point of view I think teaching, much like policing, should be by consent... so the fact that there was such a fuss made suggests that the teacher made a significant error of judgement
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Re: Americans are nuts

#13 Post by orathaic » Tue May 02, 2023 10:50 pm

orathaic wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:21 am
drag performee are being sexualised when they read stories to children in libraries
You what? Why are drag performers reading stories to children in libraries?
Why not? Children like stories, being read stories is good, children like characters dressing up and drag performers dress up like the best of them!

But seriously, why not?
But, back to the god fucks goat statue... suitable for all ages or not?
To be honest, i would not show a 5 year this statue, because i know bringing them to an actual art gallery would be incredibly boring and they'd rather see an actual goat.

The fucking would either lead to an honest conversation about sex or go right over their heads. Neither of which would really bother me if it were my child.

So no, but mostly because the context of the art isn't something a child would care about. Now if there was a dinosaur exhibit, or some train museum... Or am actual farm with petting zoo...
Octavious wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 12:17 pm
orathaic wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:21 am
Meanwhile in those same circles purity rings and beauty pageants and daddy daughter balls places young girls (and it is particular to girls) in simulations of highly sexualised rituals, which normalised a very unhealthy sexualisation and objectification of girls, but is seen as perfectly healthy.
Ok, beauty pageants I get can be rather dodgy ... but you're going to have to explain the other two
Ok, so young girls go through ceremonies that look exactly like weddings, where their fathers put a ring on their finger, basically a ritual to demonstrate their ownership.

They take them on romantic ball like events where only their father can be the date, because, again, he owns her.

And the creepiest part is, the girls promise not to have sex until another man outs a ring on her finger, because her father's ownership is specifically about the right to bodily autonomy. Her future husband will have a right to fuck her, but until then that belongs to the father.

It is one of the sickest ritual practices Americans have come up with. I mean beauty pageants are pretty bad, especially with the 4-9 year old category... (Training to be an object of the male gaze) but ritual ownership and sale of women and girls is deeply disturbing.
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Re: Americans are nuts

#14 Post by orathaic » Tue May 02, 2023 10:56 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 2:40 pm


Rather than go into the weeds of specific skirmishes in the culture war, I believe there are two main questions here:
(a) Can exposure to hypersexualized content at a young age cause some minors to experiment sexually earlier than they otherwise would have?
(b) Can exposure/encouragement of alternative lifestyles at a young age encourage some children to partake in these alternative lifestyles...who would have otherwise been just as happy with a traditional lifestyle?

I suspect for (b) you are suggesting no...and make an analogy to left handedness (rates of left-handedness rose quickly after we stopped discouraging in). But analogy != evidence. You can't just assume this. The onus on you would be to actually prove it.
A) No, evidence shows that comprehensivd sex education leads to lower rates of unwanted pregnancy in teens and lower rates of sexual activity in general.

We have multiple countries worth of evidence for this.

B) the evidence i would call for is that LGBTQ+ folks are discriminated against and lack of education and representation in our culture is had for them. The best approach to reduce stigma is early exposure. Whether it is Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, or BIPoC in the Western World, your children are less likely to become bigots and propogate the bullying which results in higher suicide rates when the go to school with and make friends with people from a diversity of backgrounds.

Being gay is not a choice, if it is, then i would like you to choose to be gay right now, for the next year. Just as an experiment.

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Re: Americans are nuts

#15 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed May 03, 2023 7:46 am

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:49 pm
You are exaggerating a bit here. It was a single Christian charter school in Florida which did this. I mean it is Florida - what do you expect?
You view Florida as backward and uncivilised? I see.

What should America do to help the poor people of Florida escape the 19th Century?
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Re: Americans are nuts

#16 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed May 03, 2023 7:47 am

Octavious wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:43 pm
You want the gun control argument again, or a discussion on censorship in art, or whether parents should have influence over the running of their children's schools?

Or just some general Yank bashing?
I am curious to understand how a society can view it as more important to protect children from sculptures, than from gunshots.
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: Americans are nuts

#17 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed May 03, 2023 7:49 am

Octavious wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 3:06 pm
Let's have a look at an undisputed cultural artifact recovered from the Roman town of Herculaneum, a stone's throw from the more famous Pompeii.

The British museum's description of the object is
Marble statue showing the god Pan making love to a she-goat, Villa of the Papyri, Herculaneum.
https://www.bmimages.com/preview.asp?image=01183689001

So... God fucks a goat...

Suitable for children? Would you impose any age limit for school trips?
An argument can be made that this statue is obscene. Michaelangelo's David is not obscene.

In either case I would not impose any age restriction on viewing the second statue, no. Are you genuinely afraid that viewing it will cause young children to attempt to have sex with goats?
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Re: Americans are nuts

#18 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed May 03, 2023 7:52 am

Octavious wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 2:27 pm
Something more modern, perhaps? Emanuele Stifano's tribute to La Spigolatrice di Sapri. A true inspiration to young girls
What is it you object to about this statue?
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Re: Americans are nuts

#19 Post by orathaic » Wed May 03, 2023 10:51 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 7:52 am
Octavious wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 2:27 pm
Something more modern, perhaps? Emanuele Stifano's tribute to La Spigolatrice di Sapri. A true inspiration to young girls
What is it you object to about this statue?
Had to look this up, some context:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58723918

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Re: Americans are nuts

#20 Post by orathaic » Thu May 04, 2023 10:52 am

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