sex work and feminism?

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orathaic
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sex work and feminism?

#1 Post by orathaic » Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:22 am

I guess the question is, is it feminist to sell your body to pay the rent?

Has anyone been following the Finnster drama on Twitter?

(For context, Finnster is sfw, but cross dresses, on his twitch stream, and chat can get very horny, he identifies as male, and makes lots of money from audience members who want to pretend he is a girl... Trans folks may take issue with making money pretending to be a girl.)

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Re: sex work and feminism?

#2 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:05 pm

I am not aware of the "Finnster drama" but clearly you are not very 1337 because it's actually "F1nn5ter". Kekekek.

Can you clarify the discussion point you are attempting to prompt here?

It seems like you are asking a number of separate but linked questions, which I might separate out as:

1. "Does a safe-for-work Twitch channel, which involves a gay/bisexual cis man who likes dressing as a woman and whose followers enjoy fantasising about him, and who derives income in the form of "tips" from these followers, represent "sex work"?"

2. "Is the above-mentioned activity (F1nn5ter wearing dresses so his fans can fap to him) offensive to trans people?"

3. What positions do feminists take with regard to sex work?

Is that what you are trying to ask?

If it is I would have a go at answering the first two:

1. This could be considered a form of sex work, yes. Assuming F1nn5ter is aware of the sexualised way in which their online content is consumed by their "fans", and assuming that F1nn5ter tailors the way they deliver that content in order to facilitate such sexualised consumption, then yeah, that fits into a very broad definition of "sex work" even though the content is "safe for work" from a purely audio-visual perspective (that is, F1nn5ter does not undress or use a lot of very sexual talk during the streaming sessions).

2. I do not think that the essence of what F1nn5ster is doing, would be offensive to most trans people. no. I know several Trans people; I'm in a band with a trans person. At a basic level people's right to self-portray as feminine or masculine or androgynous or whatever, irrespective of their gender, their pronouns, their sexuality, etc., is something nearly all trans people would be very *supportive* of. Having now looked at this in more detail than I really should have had time for, I do notice that a few people are somewhat offended by F1nn5ter's use of the term "trap", so perhaps he should be careful about that.

3. Is a whole different topic, is very complex, and is only tangentally related to your questions about F1nn5ter, so is a discussion for a different day when we have much more time.
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Re: sex work and feminism?

#3 Post by Octavious » Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:42 pm

orathaic wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:22 am
I guess the question is, is it feminist to sell your body to pay the rent?
No
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Re: sex work and feminism?

#4 Post by Doom427 » Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:53 pm

Didn't we just have this discussion last month? It's not even the 10th oldest thread here. Also what does Finn have to do with Feminism? (Actually been reading through the depths of feminist theory and the sex wars and thoughts I had gone to the wrong website for a minute)

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Re: sex work and feminism?

#5 Post by orathaic » Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:02 am

@Doom, did we have this discussion? Did i miss it :(

Finn and Feminism, or gender non-conformity and the trans community... I was really considering Finn as softcore sex work, the softest possible.

Taking that example, some sex work is far less exloitative than wage labour in physically punishing factories/mines...

@Octavious, why not? What is it in your mind which defines feminism in a way which excludes sex work?

@Jamie, i will admit to discussing the xdressing 'femboy' presentation with a number of my trans friends at this point, and most came to the conclusion, 'hey more power to him' which is not the idea you would get from the criticism... The way i heard it, Finn was seen as a cis male co-opting the trans identity (and yes using the word trap) to make money. Very much akin to a football team calling themselves the Red socks to co-opt an indigenous culture...

But i may missing a lot of the discourse. Generally i think the majority of what you said about Finn compliments what i know very well.

The main point of the topic would be the last part, wherein we talk about the other topic.

I don't know if Keffals is problematic, but this was my introduction to the topic: https://youtu.be/_BOsaDkaav8

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Re: sex work and feminism?

#6 Post by Octavious » Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:18 pm

orathaic wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:02 am
@Octavious, why not? What is it in your mind which defines feminism in a way which excludes sex work?
I don't think sex work is incompatible with feminism, in much the same way as eating an orange or going on holiday to Lisbon wouldn't be incompatible. But none of those things is a feminist act either. They are things people do, and they are neither feminist nor anti feminist.

Now, you could make an argument that campaigning for women to have the right to work in the sex industry is a feminist act. You could also argue that trying to ban sex work is a feminist act. But the sex work itself... is pretty neutral
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Re: sex work and feminism?

#7 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:37 pm

orathaic wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:02 am
@Doom, did we have this discussion? Did i miss it :(
There was a lengthy discussion about OnlyFans, porn, and Sex Work, started by Fluminator who was advocating for all of the above things to be made illegal. It was certainly similar to this although I don't recall if this particular Twitch Streamer got mentioned.
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Re: sex work and feminism?

#8 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:53 pm

orathaic wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:02 am
@Jamie, i will admit to discussing the xdressing 'femboy' presentation with a number of my trans friends at this point, and most came to the conclusion, 'hey more power to him' which is not the idea you would get from the criticism... The way i heard it, Finn was seen as a cis male co-opting the trans identity (and yes using the word trap) to make money. Very much akin to a football team calling themselves the Red socks to co-opt an indigenous culture...

I don't know if Keffals is problematic, but this was my introduction to the topic: https://youtu.be/_BOsaDkaav8
Okay so I've watched half the video and got bored, but I have a general problem with the approach it takes. She says "the trans community tends to be at odds with F1nn5ter" but backs this up very vaguely and then starts defending F1nn5ter from arguments she says are being made. They are poorly articulated (by Keffals) and come across like strawman arguments.

I had a bit of a google and could not find any actual trans or LGBTQ news source or reputable website discussing trans criticism of F1nn5ster. The only thing I could find was a few trans people on Reddit saying they disliked F1nn5ter for being very attractive and looking really good when presenting in a feminine way. Without meaning to offend anyone, that's simple jealousy and not an argument to suggest that F1nn5ter is transphobic or has done anything improper that trans people should be upset about. It's literally just "I wish I was pretty, you're pretty, I hate you", which is very petty. Other than the problematic use of the word "trap", I see no argument.

I mentioned F1nn5ter to two trans friends today. Neither of them had heard of him, and they were unaware of any serious issue. Like your trans contacts, they thought his crossdressing was absolutely fine and not problematic.

I hate to say it but apart from a few people on Twitch and YouTube who need to go outside more often, I don't think there's anything here worthy of attention.

Now, we can talk about sex work and porn again, if you want to, but I'm not interested in talking about F1nn5ter any more.
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