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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2022 8:01 pm
by flash2015
I haven't seen the Rings of Power series, but it is an adaptation based on very little source material, and Tolkien can certainly be read as being pretty racist, so i don't care if 'not being true to the original source' or 'true to Tolkien' criticism, if it is disabled nternalky consistent then it's is fine to make elves whatever colour you want.
I don't really care what your opinion is on the Rings Of Power. I don't know why you think I do. You could believe it was the best series ever made for all I care and that is your right to do so.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding here - are you trying to say since you don't think some of these things are important no one else is allowed to disagree...especially since you thing Tolkein is "racist"?

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:18 am
by flash2015
orathaic wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:27 pm
First, my "the latest Disney" could be a reference to Thor: Love and Thunder, Star Wars: the spinoffs continues, or Animated Movie: no with real cgi'd actors. I'm not specifically talking about today's contraversy.

Second, nobody is saying 'anyone who doesn't like my artistic decisions is a BAD person', that is a strawman.

There may in fact be ppl saying "bad people who complain disingenuously should be ignored", and "Disney is makeing lots of free advertising by annoying had people".
I don't see it as a straw man. This is what we are arguing about...not allowing people to criticize specific casting decisions without being called racist. You can disagree and say it doesn't matter...but that doesn't mean that other people aren't entitled to a different opinion.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:32 am
by kestasjk
orathaic wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:42 am
There are legitimate reasons why some people may get upset with some of these casting choices.
What might qualify as a legitimate reason exactly? Black actors have every right to have their talent demonstrated (same with other crew members, writers, directors etc.) What legitimate reason is there to deny this fact, without being racist?
It’s using an actor’s race as a cheap marketing gimmick. Do you think Disney made this casting choice without any thought as to this person’s skin colour? If yes you’re very naive, if not it’s using race to sell movie tickets.

Don’t be so sure that you have the moral high ground; throwing around accusations of racism freely while supporting Disney Corporation in adding a token black actor to increase the demographic appeal and awareness of their crappy remake.. :P


Anyone who sees this because Disney cast a black actor and think it’s progressive is a complete tool in my humble opinion (I’m not saying anyone here fits that category, even though they’re defending it). The same kind of person who in the 1940’s would’ve watched Disney’s Songs of the South and considered it partaking in black culture.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:18 am
by kestasjk
Octavious wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:22 pm
But do I miss those days when the forum was interesting and worth turning up too? God, yes. It was infinitely more entertaining and diverse than the perpetual game of 20 questions and counting of years that makes up the forum now.
Me too.. I don’t think we need any moderator to e.g. protect our delicate minds from Xerxes’ objectively/factually absurd view that women can only be mothers/wives. I think we’re all adults who can discuss controversial topics (in that case controversial for the 1800s) and that exposing each other to our most extreme points of view is interesting and self-correcting.. But I don’t want to enforce things / impose my views that way either ..

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:52 am
by flash2015
kestasjk wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:18 am
Octavious wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:22 pm
But do I miss those days when the forum was interesting and worth turning up too? God, yes. It was infinitely more entertaining and diverse than the perpetual game of 20 questions and counting of years that makes up the forum now.
Me too.. I don’t think we need any moderator to e.g. protect our delicate minds from Xerxes’ objectively/factually absurd view that women can only be mothers/wives. I think we’re all adults who can discuss controversial topics (in that case controversial for the 1800s) and that exposing each other to our most extreme points of view is interesting and self-correcting.. But I don’t want to enforce things / impose my views that way either ..
I thought it was a bit extreme to ban Xerxes. Yes, his views were absurd but he was polite. He wasn't being nasty, calling people names, making threats. I think engagement is important - banning him won't make these opinions go away,. He will probably go back to a bubble which reinforces these opinions. I don't think that is a good thing.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:04 pm
by Octavious
kestasjk wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:18 am
Octavious wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:22 pm
But do I miss those days when the forum was interesting and worth turning up too? God, yes. It was infinitely more entertaining and diverse than the perpetual game of 20 questions and counting of years that makes up the forum now.
Me too.. I don’t think we need any moderator to e.g. protect our delicate minds from Xerxes’ objectively/factually absurd view that women can only be mothers/wives. I think we’re all adults who can discuss controversial topics and that exposing each other to our most extreme points of view is interesting and self-correcting.. But I don’t want to enforce things / impose my views that way either ..
I appreciate it is a difficult issue. In regards to Xerses, I think he argued his case in a refreshingly patient way that was thoroughly respectful to other forum members, and in doing so put many of the rest of us to shame. Him being silenced for that feels considerably more absurd than his admittedly archaic views, and back in the days I thought the forum worth fighting for I would have argued against it strongly.

By silencing such views nothing is achieved other than hiding them under a carpet they cannot be explored or challenged, just mocked by the powers that be whilst the signal is sent ever stronger that posting any opinion that deviates from the acceptable liberal mainstream will be punished. It builds anger and resentment and leads to acts of rebellion resulting in amusing events like Trump being president and the "we're not fascists anymore, honest" party being elected in Italy.

Speaking as an old school liberal myself, I do find it rather concerning that we live in a society where sites like webDip now enthusiastically participate in censorship that would see members banned for posting certain sections from some of the world's more popular holy books, or posting views that are both mainstream and backed up by law in many places outside of the Western world. It seems to be against the very spirit of the site webDip used to be. The world grows ever more insular and fearful of the other.

Of course webDip is very small beer in the grand scheme of things, and nothing done or said here will probably make any difference to anything. But once upon a time I would have confidently said that webDip would always be a shining light of free and open debate regardless of how dark everywhere else might get, and it is depressing to have been so wrong.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:06 pm
by Octavious
I have been agreeing with flash far too often recently... Maybe it's a covid symptom ;)

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:43 pm
by Doom427
flash2015 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:52 am
kestasjk wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:18 am
Octavious wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:22 pm
But do I miss those days when the forum was interesting and worth turning up too? God, yes. It was infinitely more entertaining and diverse than the perpetual game of 20 questions and counting of years that makes up the forum now.
Me too.. I don’t think we need any moderator to e.g. protect our delicate minds from Xerxes’ objectively/factually absurd view that women can only be mothers/wives. I think we’re all adults who can discuss controversial topics (in that case controversial for the 1800s) and that exposing each other to our most extreme points of view is interesting and self-correcting.. But I don’t want to enforce things / impose my views that way either ..
I thought it was a bit extreme to ban Xerxes. Yes, his views were absurd but he was polite. He wasn't being nasty, calling people names, making threats. I think engagement is important - banning him won't make these opinions go away,. He will probably go back to a bubble which reinforces these opinions. I don't think that is a good thing.
I was fine with him being around but I'm not gonna cry any tears he got banned. Maybe I would care if I got the sense there was any "Radicals" on the other side but the other side has basically just been posting mainstream accepted rhetoric that most people agree with (seriously - in the real world people are ok with this and have been forever)

Having a guy who full-throatedly believes patriarchy is good and we need to embrace it more being accepted in a thread where the alternative side is... Black Mermaid is ok? White men aren't under attack? Sends a message about what is accepted on this website.

I mean, if I posted that I earnestly and seriously believe all men should be put to cryogenic sleep and used as sperm banks for the lesbian feminist utopia, well, I wouldn't even need to be banned- I would be run out by everyone on the forum.

If free and open debate is just a spectrum between conservative liberals and arch conservative fascists, well, I don't think you'd see many who aren't crochety old white dudes come to the website for even playing the game. Not that all that many others come to the website at all anyway.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:48 pm
by Octavious
Because I'm in that sort of mood today, let's highlight one problematic area with a fun demonstration.

If someone was to say that Scientology is not a religion, but a dangerous cult led by a mix of fraudsters and the sort of bastards that warp people's minds to the point of inducing suicide, would this be an example of religious bigotry and a punishable offence (as Scientology is recognised as a legitimate religion by several Western nations) or would it be seen as simply speaking the truth and condemning a dangerous and often criminal organisation (in line with the views of the French government represented by the observatoire interministériel sur les sectes and interministérielle de lutte contre les sectes)?

Let's find out :-)

Scientology is not a religion, but a dangerous cult led by a mix of fraudsters and the sort of bastards that warp people's minds to the point of inducing suicide. I firmly believe this to be true, and encourage all of us to take every action permitted by law to help eradicate this organisation.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:49 pm
by Doom427
kestasjk wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:32 am

Anyone who sees this because Disney cast a black actor and think it’s progressive is a complete tool in my humble opinion (I’m not saying anyone here fits that category, even though they’re defending it). The same kind of person who in the 1940’s would’ve watched Disney’s Songs of the South and considered it partaking in black culture.
I feel like we're forgetting that Black people exist in the real world and not just as abstract symbols to be in movies here.

Could we at least say a Black person who grew up loving little mermaid might like seeing a Black person as Ariel? They might think it's cool? I mean my dad liked that terrible live action last Airbender movie purely because he liked seeing a bunch of Indians in a movie, even if they were the villains.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:50 pm
by Doom427
Damn, I need to stop revealing so much info about myself on this forum purely to win stupid internet debates.

I've given the internet a dozen weakness to hit me now.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:03 pm
by Octavious
Venturing briefly back to the Little Mermaid, it does seem to be one of the stories where race matters the least. If James Bond becomes black, that leads to all sorts of awkward questions about his lived experience being somewhat out of kilter with his past actions. If Dr Who becomes black in a new generation it raises the question about why he's never been black before if that's an option. A mermaid doesn't have any of this baggage.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:14 pm
by flash2015
Doom427 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:43 pm
I was fine with him being around but I'm not gonna cry any tears he got banned. Maybe I would care if I got the sense there was any "Radicals" on the other side but the other side has basically just been posting mainstream accepted rhetoric that most people agree with (seriously - in the real world people are ok with this and have been forever)

Having a guy who full-throatedly believes patriarchy is good and we need to embrace it more being accepted in a thread where the alternative side is... Black Mermaid is ok? White men aren't under attack? Sends a message about what is accepted on this website.

I mean, if I posted that I earnestly and seriously believe all men should be put to cryogenic sleep and used as sperm banks for the lesbian feminist utopia, well, I wouldn't even need to be banned- I would be run out by everyone on the forum.

If free and open debate is just a spectrum between conservative liberals and arch conservative fascists, well, I don't think you'd see many who aren't crochety old white dudes come to the website for even playing the game. Not that all that many others come to the website at all anyway.
I understand that some people may not want to see this Political discussion, especially when views are out of the mainstream. This is why I thought the Politics group was created. It is purposely hidden from the front page to provide some more freedom to explore these Political arguments without upsetting people that aren't interested. You don't think it is hidden enough?

If this is still not OK, where do you think these sort of discussions should happen? Again, I don't think we solve these problems by just banning discussion...or calling those with extreme views (or even just Trump supporters) idiots, fascists, nazis etc. I run my own Politics group on NextDoor where I see people do that...the person they direct the insult to responds in kind then I get requests YOU MUST BAN THIS PERSON! I believe the extreme views often come from some underlying issues, they are really just a symptom of something else. The only way you get to the underlying issue is by being open to some of these discussions.

You could try and make the sperm bank argument. I am sure people will understand that it is in jest. This is what people like brainbomb liked to do...and what Fluminator does to a lesser extent. I believe these are the sort of discussions Octavious misses from the old forum.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:55 pm
by Doom427
flash2015 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:14 pm

I understand that some people may not want to see this Political discussion, especially when views are out of the mainstream. This is why I thought the Politics group was created. It is purposely hidden from the front page to provide some more freedom to explore these Political arguments without upsetting people that aren't interested. You don't think it is hidden enough?

If this is still not OK, where do you think these sort of discussions should happen? Again, I don't think we solve these problems by just banning discussion...or calling those with extreme views (or even just Trump supporters) idiots, fascists, nazis etc. I run my own Politics group on NextDoor where I see people do that...the person they direct the insult to responds in kind then I get requests YOU MUST BAN THIS PERSON! I believe the extreme views often come from some underlying issues, they are really just a symptom of something else. The only way you get to the underlying issue is by being open to some of these discussions.

You could try and make the sperm bank argument. I am sure people will understand that it is in jest. This is what people like brainbomb liked to do...and what Fluminator does to a lesser extent. I believe these are the sort of discussions Octavious misses from the old forum.
I simply am making the most obvious point in the world- even if it's a separate and (slightly) hidden channel, the politics forum exists as part of the same website. I get the sense that this won't sink in unless I simply state it as fact- women won't come to the website to play a board game if they know the forum discusses if women should stay in the kitchen.

While you might consider answering the question of if women should stay in the kitchen is more important than women playing diplomacy on this website dedicated to playing diplomacy, I personally come here to play a board game, not debate if I'd be happier barefoot and pregnant. But I personally probably wouldn't tell another women to join the website and play a few games because I can't in good conscience introduce them to an environment like that. All I was saying was I understand why that conversation might be inappropriate here.

But further I find this concern trolling from you a little insulting to be honest. I engaged with Mr. Biblical womanhood on those exact political discussions! I don't remember you saying any shit about it, but now you're complaining that we won't have a discussion about it?

If you wanted to discuss it, why weren't you engaging with it then? I made it clear I thought it was fine because I bothered to talk and respond. I actually did something to encourage the stupid conversation that you now think is critical to have.

Making a sad face and telling me "We have to talk to patriarchy dude, why can't we" when I talked to him and you fucking didn't? Come on.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:08 pm
by flash2015
Doom427 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:55 pm
But further I find this concern trolling from you a little insulting to be honest. I engaged with Mr. Biblical womanhood on those exact political discussions! I don't remember you saying any shit about it, but now you're complaining that we won't have a discussion about it?

If you wanted to discuss it, why weren't you engaging with it then? I made it clear I thought it was fine because I bothered to talk and respond. I actually did something to encourage the stupid conversation that you now think is critical to have.

Making a sad face and telling me "We have to talk to patriarchy dude, why can't we" when I talked to him and you fucking didn't? Come on.
I think this is a bit unfair. It was around 16 hours between his first message and the time he was banned. Difficult for me to interact with him if he was banned before I even paid attention to his messages...unless you expect me to be responding to messages here 24/7.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:24 am
by flash2015
Doom427 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:55 pm
I simply am making the most obvious point in the world- even if it's a separate and (slightly) hidden channel, the politics forum exists as part of the same website. I get the sense that this won't sink in unless I simply state it as fact- women won't come to the website to play a board game if they know the forum discusses if women should stay in the kitchen.

While you might consider answering the question of if women should stay in the kitchen is more important than women playing diplomacy on this website dedicated to playing diplomacy, I personally come here to play a board game, not debate if I'd be happier barefoot and pregnant. But I personally probably wouldn't tell another women to join the website and play a few games because I can't in good conscience introduce them to an environment like that. All I was saying was I understand why that conversation might be inappropriate here.
I think you are wildly overstating the issue. You are making it sound like if he wasn't immediately banned the Politics section was about to turn into a misogynistic hellhole. It was one guy in one thread. Everyone that interacted with him disagreed with him and I am quite confident that everyone else that wrote a message on this topic disagreed with him too. He got banned so quick I didn't even have a chance to interact with him.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:31 am
by kestasjk
Octavious wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:48 pm
Because I'm in that sort of mood today, let's highlight one problematic area with a fun demonstration.

If someone was to say that Scientology is not a religion, but a dangerous cult led by a mix of fraudsters and the sort of bastards that warp people's minds to the point of inducing suicide, would this be an example of religious bigotry and a punishable offence (as Scientology is recognised as a legitimate religion by several Western nations) or would it be seen as simply speaking the truth and condemning a dangerous and often criminal organisation (in line with the views of the French government represented by the observatoire interministériel sur les sectes and interministérielle de lutte contre les sectes)?

Let's find out :-)

Scientology is not a religion, but a dangerous cult led by a mix of fraudsters and the sort of bastards that warp people's minds to the point of inducing suicide. I firmly believe this to be true, and encourage all of us to take every action permitted by law to help eradicate this organisation.
Whether it’s the truth or not I think it’s worth discussing, and I’d be pretty disgusted to see someone banned because you’re .. what’s the wordIng.. being bigoted against a certain group (in this case Scientologists).. but Scientologists aren’t a sympathetic group so I’m sure you’re safe.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:58 pm
by MajorMitchell
It is interesting reading the comments about casting choices.
I have the rare good fortune of being an embryonic actor and comedian with extra roles in one 24 minute short movie recently released on Youtube titled
Formosus, the Mystic and the Witch
and a similar current participation in a Horror feature film project, yes, Darlings the Director Nate has invited me back fo a day of filming next wednesday;
so am one of the few actual film actors in this discussion.

One of the best skits written and performed by Peter Cook and Dudley Moore is the famous Dudley as a one legged actor insisting his Agent Peter get him an audition to play Tarzan in a film.(or Superman)

If a film Director offered me a role as a coloured woman superhero in a film it would certainly be a test of my acting abilities and until I read the script could not either refuse or discuss the possibilities or accept

Thankfully there's very few stakeholders in a film project apart from the Producer and Director who get influence over most casting decisions, it is not an environment for committee decision making, it is an environment suited to artistic dictators

I might work on a comedy routine about the problems of playing a politically imcorrect old predator white man, it's so predictable having to lecherously grope young actors and then feign surprise when the actor cops arrive to save the little darlings, it is awfully passé darlings and not much of an acting challenge for me compared to playing SuperWoman or Camilla Parker Bowles or the Empress Vatherine the Great of Russia.

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:43 pm
by Octavious
kestasjk wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:31 am
Whether it’s the truth or not I think it’s worth discussing, and I’d be pretty disgusted to see someone banned because you’re .. what’s the wordIng.. being bigoted against a certain group (in this case Scientologists).. but Scientologists aren’t a sympathetic group so I’m sure you’re safe.
Quite possibly true, although having protection in place only for sympathetic groups is in itself troubling. If we were to turn the clocks back 100 years there was little public sympathy for Jews, which enabled various governments of the time to effectively scapegoat them. And it is entirely possible that a similar fall from public sympathy could happen again in the future.

If you believe both that Scientology is a religion and religions must be protected from harsh criticism then surely there's not a great deal of room for flexibility. That I believe neither of those things to be true is immaterial. You could argue with some legitimacy that Scientology's status as a religion is disputed, and as such doesn't qualify for protection. However, if we ever enter a time when both North America and the EU declare it to be a religion subject to the same protections other religions enjoy, will me saying it's a dangerous cult that should be shut down become a punishable offence?

Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:09 pm
by orathaic
Religions don't deserve any more special protections than, for example a government or charitable organisation.

They have power and influence over people, this power should not be abused. And we should be free to call them out when we see it being absued.

That said, there is a difference between criticising the behaviour of an organisation and criticising people for who they are (like being born into a Jewish family, or with black skin).

One is a choice, which can be changed by vocal criticism (though how much posting on webdip's politics forum will change is debatable) the other is a something which can only he changed by committing genocide.

(See also #BlackLifesMatter vs #DefundThePolice, genocide vs redundancy)