Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#101 Post by Xerxes Worldweaver » Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:55 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:58 pm
There's so much to comment on here and on so many other posts here, but I just have to quickly ask, why is diversity for diversity's sake a bad thing?
I did fire in all directions, didn't I?

I'm generally opposed to diversity, mostly because it's either pointless, racist, or inefficient. If you're making a movie and you hire an Asian guy solely because he's Asian and not because he's a good actor, you might miss out on better actors and as a result the quality of your movie will suffer. You didn't really gain anything and you may have lost something. In a similar vein of thought, the movement to have "more women in X industry" has always seemed rather daft to me. If women want to join the industry, why won't they? Why do you need to go out of your way specifically to hire women, turning down men who could have done the job you needed doing?
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#102 Post by flash2015 » Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:29 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:58 pm
Xerxes Worldweaver wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:26 pm
I hear more often that the actors are terrible or that the script is terrible or, such as with the new Little Mermaid, that the producers are pushing diversity solely for diversity's sake. All three of those faults are, in their own way, the faults of story.
There's so much to comment on here and on so many other posts here, but I just have to quickly ask, why is diversity for diversity's sake a bad thing?
So you would be OK with a film on Abraham Lincoln with Lincoln played by Idris Elba, a film on MLK where MLK is played by Chow Yun Fat and a film on Queen Elizabeth the First played by Penelope Cruz? That would be more diverse so that would be good, right?

Diversity like we have now in the USA is a very, very recent thing. Historically this was not the case. What you looked like could often determine where you came from. When you try to inject diversity into historical or pseudo-historical films (which fantasy films often are) without **any** logical reason how this could have happened it detracts from the story.

Here is a recent article from Newsweek complaining how the haphazard diversity added in House Of The Dragon was clumsy and made little sense:

https://www.newsweek.com/house-dragons- ... on-1742022

Just so there is no confusion the author is Angie Paccione, an African American.

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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#103 Post by Doom427 » Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:45 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:29 pm
When you try to inject diversity into historical or pseudo-historical films (which fantasy films often are) without **any** logical reason how this could have happened it detracts from the story.
But why though? Why does "Diversity"- whatever the hell that means- detract from the story-whatever the hell that means?

I mean, I thought the Black Panther movie was pretty good, but the white cia agent was a pointless addition that was only done so white folks could have one nominally good guy to see in the film. Does this count as "Diversity ruining movies"?

And I really wish the Lord of the Rings movie had bothered to respect Tolkien's writings and portray Gondorians with a much more Middle-Eastern appearance, seeing as he said the following -The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled ‘Egyptians’

But that's asking that a movie be more diverse to respect the initial conception of the universe- do you agree with this? Are you asking for this to be done? Do I have to hear complaints about how Jackson disregarded Tolkien's vision with his portrayal? Cause I don't remember anyone throwing a stink there.

But I do remember when some black women were in the background of the Hobbit a few racists complained that it pissed on middle-earth.

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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#104 Post by JECE » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:16 am

flash2015: You do realize that these sort of casting choices are common in theater, right, and that this has been the case quite literally for millennia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Represent ... an_tragedy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ira_Aldridge
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#105 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:19 am

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:29 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:58 pm
Xerxes Worldweaver wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:26 pm
I hear more often that the actors are terrible or that the script is terrible or, such as with the new Little Mermaid, that the producers are pushing diversity solely for diversity's sake. All three of those faults are, in their own way, the faults of story.
There's so much to comment on here and on so many other posts here, but I just have to quickly ask, why is diversity for diversity's sake a bad thing?
So you would be OK with a film on Abraham Lincoln with Lincoln played by Idris Elba, a film on MLK where MLK is played by Chow Yun Fat and a film on Queen Elizabeth the First played by Penelope Cruz? That would be more diverse so that would be good, right?

Diversity like we have now in the USA is a very, very recent thing. Historically this was not the case. What you looked like could often determine where you came from. When you try to inject diversity into historical or pseudo-historical films (which fantasy films often are) without **any** logical reason how this could have happened it detracts from the story.

Here is a recent article from Newsweek complaining how the haphazard diversity added in House Of The Dragon was clumsy and made little sense:

https://www.newsweek.com/house-dragons- ... on-1742022

Just so there is no confusion the author is Angie Paccione, an African American.
Not really related to the point, but I'm a history nerd so I have to say that diversity or multicultural societies have existed before many times. Probably the most known examples were Ancient Rome or Persia. There is less documentation on Persia, but Rome had Italian, African, Arabian, Spanish, and other nationalities be Emperors.

Historical fiction is quite different from a fantasy Disney movie. Unless you're going for the "Black mermaid is Danish appropriation" argument none of that is really relevant to this current context.

If you have a particular example you're thinking of you were bothered by I'm down to look into it. I didn't hear too much backlash when they did a film on Abaraham Lincoln and made him into a vampire slayer which was probably not quite historically accurate.
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#106 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:25 am

In regards to the article you linked, I haven't seen the show, but I agree if this group is all about racism and race purity, it is a little weird to make some of their group different races.

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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#107 Post by flash2015 » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:29 am

Doom427 wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:45 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:29 pm
When you try to inject diversity into historical or pseudo-historical films (which fantasy films often are) without **any** logical reason how this could have happened it detracts from the story.
But why though? Why does "Diversity"- whatever the hell that means- detract from the story-whatever the hell that means?
Did you not read my comment or the link I provided?
I mean, I thought the Black Panther movie was pretty good, but the white cia agent was a pointless addition that was only done so white folks could have one nominally good guy to see in the film. Does this count as "Diversity ruining movies"?
You are trying to strawman me here. I never said that a movie turned from good to bad just because of the skin colour of one of the actors.
And I really wish the Lord of the Rings movie had bothered to respect Tolkien's writings and portray Gondorians with a much more Middle-Eastern appearance, seeing as he said the following -The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled ‘Egyptians’

But that's asking that a movie be more diverse to respect the initial conception of the universe- do you agree with this? Are you asking for this to be done? Do I have to hear complaints about how Jackson disregarded Tolkien's vision with his portrayal? Cause I don't remember anyone throwing a stink there.
Are you trying to say if I didn't mention absolutely every time that a movie got it wrong I can't have an opinion on any of them?
But I do remember when some black women were in the background of the Hobbit a few racists complained that it pissed on middle-earth.
I didn't really care that much about this. But let's face it though - it doesn't make sense. The colour of your skin is based on tens of thousands of years of sun exposure. How did it come to be that some of the hobbits are white and some of them are black?
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#108 Post by flash2015 » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:41 am

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:19 am
Not really related to the point, but I'm a history nerd so I have to say that diversity or multicultural societies have existed before many times. Probably the most known examples were Ancient Rome or Persia. There is less documentation on Persia, but Rome had Italian, African, Arabian, Spanish, and other nationalities be Emperors.

Historical fiction is quite different from a fantasy Disney movie. Unless you're going for the "Black mermaid is Danish appropriation" argument none of that is really relevant to this current context.

If you have a particular example you're thinking of you were bothered by I'm down to look into it. I didn't hear too much backlash when they did a film on Abaraham Lincoln and made him into a vampire slayer which was probably not quite historically accurate.
You are right that there have been some past cultures that did have some diversity but there is a REASON why they had that diversity. Persia and Rome were at one point big empires covering lands with many different races.

I never cared about the Little Mermaid. I haven't seen the original and I won't see this. However I am pretty confident that Disney is going out of their way to highlight the crazies as a marketing ploy. Thus the film becomes immune to criticism - if anyone criticizes it, it must be because they are crazy racists and not based on the merits (or lack of) for the film. Amazon did the same thing for the "Rings Of Power".

The movie about Abraham Lincoln the vampire slayer was never meant to be taken seriously so I am not sure how that is relevant.
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#109 Post by JECE » Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:57 am

How on Earth is a children's movie about a mermaid meant to be taken seriously?

And again, you keep on insisting on a "REASON" for diversity when there doesn't need to be any explanation.
JECE wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:16 am
You do realize that these sort of casting choices are common in theater, right, and that this has been the case quite literally for millennia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Represent ... an_tragedy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ira_Aldridge
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#110 Post by flash2015 » Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:00 am

JECE wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:57 am
How on Earth is a children's movie about a mermaid meant to be taken seriously?

And again, you keep on insisting on a "REASON" for diversity when there doesn't need to be any explanation.
JECE wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:16 am
You do realize that these sort of casting choices are common in theater, right, and that this has been the case quite literally for millennia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Represent ... an_tragedy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ira_Aldridge
When did I say I cared about the Little Mermaid? When did I say that I cared about the casting?
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#111 Post by JECE » Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:01 am

flash2015 wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:29 am
Did you not read my comment or the link I provided?
Please forgive us for not wanting to read an article from an unreliable news source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... a:NEWSWEEK

Sure, it's an opinion piece, but come on!
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#112 Post by JECE » Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:02 am

flash2015 wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:00 am
JECE wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:57 am
How on Earth is a children's movie about a mermaid meant to be taken seriously?

And again, you keep on insisting on a "REASON" for diversity when there doesn't need to be any explanation.
JECE wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:16 am
You do realize that these sort of casting choices are common in theater, right, and that this has been the case quite literally for millennia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Represent ... an_tragedy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ira_Aldridge
When did I say I cared about the Little Mermaid?
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#113 Post by flash2015 » Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:09 am

JECE wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:01 am
flash2015 wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:29 am
Did you not read my comment or the link I provided?
Please forgive us for not wanting to read an article from an unreliable news source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... a:NEWSWEEK

Sure, it's an opinion piece, but come on!
So you won't even LOOK at an article which may challenge your opinion? Are you scared your opinion may change or something?

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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#114 Post by JECE » Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:18 am

"House of the Dragon's Diversity Casting Betrays the Diversity of Martin's Universe"

Done. I haven't seen House of the Dragon or Game of Thrones or read A Song of Ice and Fire. Not for me.

Now look at the articles I linked to.
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#115 Post by Bonatogether » Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:43 am

normally i refrain from posting anything serious on this site but i will chip in that it seems to me that having remakes where the new thing/the schtick is simply that the race or gender of the main character is changed (little mermaid, ghostbusters, as examples) doesn't seem a straight deal - presumably black people and women can do something other than do what white people and men did before them. the classics of american cinema do lack in diversity, but it would be better to let new creations that more reflect all people in america come forward to speak to the modern moment.

black panther took off as a cultural phenomenon because it was a black superhero doing something original and thought provoking. stepping away from the little mermaid as it's not actually out yet, the new ghostbusters did nothing comparable because it wasn't actually interesting beyond nostalgia for the old ghostbusters (with the men). perhaps someone could say worthwhile about the role bill murray plays in the new ghostbusters vis a vis the relationship of the new ghostbusters to the old ghostbusters, but it's too late for me atm.
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#116 Post by JECE » Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:20 am

Honestly, this debate is so absurdly ridiculous.

Just think of the number of times that Peter Pan, a boy, has been cast by a woman. Here are just the most famous versions:
1904: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_and_Wendy
1924: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1924_film)
1950: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1950_musical)
1954: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1954_musical)
1976: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1976_musical)
1988: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1988_film)
1989: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan ... ted_Series
2004: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finding_Neverland_(film)
2012: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finding_N ... _(musical)
2014: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_Live!

I'm sure that most can think of a theater production with Peter Pan cast by a woman or girl that they themselves saw at some point without raising an eyebrow.

And for the record, at least two black boys have been cast as Peter Pan too, and the internet (I hope) didn't explode:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_(film)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_Away
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#117 Post by kestasjk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:43 am

Octavious wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:00 pm
Well, you would do :razz:.

The changes made to the forum back when we moved away from the old style created an environment fundamentally hostile to any view that deviates from the mainstream, where the mainstream is broadly defined by US liberal media. As this has been in place for some time now the result is a forum far less diverse in opinion. Back in the day there would have been plenty of voices backing you up as well as plenty being critical, and a far more balanced back and forth. But the fact that this is no longer the case is ever so slightly your fault, so you can't complain too much ;)
Ive always been more on the site that people should be able to say whatever they want within reason, more than almost all other mods were comfortable with. I always thought it was a waste of mod time getting involved in moderating forums and that people should silence/mute whoever they don’t want to interact with.

Also it’s fine if no-one is backing me up that’s not really what I’m asking for, any kind of group-think I think takes away from things in a forum.
Xerxes Worldweaver wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:26 pm
A world of lies... that's what feminism is. A complete refutation of it and a proper defence of the patriarchy is beyond the scope of this post (though it shall be given if requested), but suffice it to say that it is a complete and utter lie that women as a whole were meant to be anything other than wives and mothers. Women were not meant to be soldiers - they are those whom soldiers fight to protect. Their lives are too valuable to be wasted on the battlefield. When we are shown in FSMs that a woman can beat the crap out of a man, we know it's a lie. Whenever a woman orders a man about, we know something's off.
Lol .. are you posting from rural Afghanistan or something?.. You really don’t know of any women who were successful at more than being a wife/mother? Quite stunning ignorance..

By the way your post was reported but I don’t think it makes any sense to block stuff like this. If XW wants to make the argument women can’t beat up a man, can’t be soldiers, can’t lead, can’t be anything other than a wife/mother I think they should write all about it and put their name all over it. If someone has somehow never worked with (or even heard of) a successful female professional / scientist / teacher / lawyer / astronaut / fighter / prime minister / CEO I’m very happy for them to learn here.. Just like I’d be very happy for them to step in the ring with a female UFC fighter, or play chess against a female master.
If you block these sorts of opinions they’ll only get posted to places where they’ll be agreed with.
Fluminator wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:38 pm
Kestas, just try to take a step back bro. I love playing devil's advocate (to the point half the forum thinks I'm a far-right troll) but this is not it.

Even if everything you said about Disney doing this as some Machiavellian plot to generate controversy to make more money or publicly is true, what does that really change? It shouldn't be controversial in the first place?
JECE and Meme kind of already said all the main points very succinctly.

I think in a few years, you might look back on this and be embarrassed how you bent over backwards trying to justify the backlash against a black mermaid.
I realize posting this is a mistake in that it’s an unpopular opinion and it openly invites accusations of racism, but my first instinct was that it was a cynical marketing ploy, on seeing all the debate and people calling any criticism of the trailer racist I still think it’s a cynical marketing ploy, and having had some very smart, logical people give me their best arguments in this thread I still think it’s a cynical marketing ploy.

I actually think the opposite is true; I think over time as Disney and other studios use this trick and the novelty wears off the criticism and accusations of racism will swing the other way.
When Songs of the South was released by Disney “Zip-a-Dee-doo-dah” got an academy award; it was probably seen as progressive at the time, it’s only with time and hindsight that people started to see it for what it is.
Even if everything you said about Disney doing this as some Machiavellian plot to generate controversy to make more money or publicly is true, what does that really change? It shouldn't be controversial in the first place?
It changes everything! Intentionally casting a black person in a role that you wouldn’t expect a black person to be cast to generate controversy and get media attention is super cringe. If you looked up tokenism in an illustrated dictionary the illustration should be a Little Mermaid remake poster.


Sorry if it disappoints you I’m not of the same opinion here, I’m sure we share the same opinion on lots of things, but until someone points out something I didn’t consider / wasn’t aware of I can’t see how I will change my view on this.

If I went to see the Little Mermaid remake (and I really wouldn’t want to because it would signal Disney to do it again) and somehow the trailer gave a totally wrong impression and it was actually a substantially different movie that you could understand why she was cast for it, say it had some social commentary or made some kind of interesting point, *that* would have to be the main thing I could see changing my mind.
Part of me still finds it hard to believe they made a live-action remake where the *only change* is someone’s skin colour, I think in another timeline Disney would be lampooned for exploitation and racism, so I feel like the trailer has to be an inaccurate representation of the movie being an exact remake.

That’s the only real thing I think could put egg on my face; if it’s not actually an exact remake and they did something clever and interesting, and I say “aaah, that’s why they did this.. okay that makes sense”. But based on Disney’s recent live-action remakes being exactly the same and panned for being a total waste of time, and the only thing that got anyone’s attention from the trailer being someone’s skin colour, I think the cynical marketing ploy explanation is a lot more likely.
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#118 Post by kestasjk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:32 am

I wonder what do people think about JK Rowling saying Hermione was black?
Rowling did not write her as black in the books. Hermione is white and there are some examples that prove it:

Hermione is once described as “white-faced” in the third book.

Amos Diggory thought Hermione may be a member of the Weasley family who are all clearly white.

Harry immediately noticed that Hermione was tanned from her holiday so she can not have a dark skin colour.

Hermione is several times pink in the face.

When a product of the twins gives her a black eye Hermione looks like a panda and we all know which colours they have.
So when JK Rowling comes out and says she could’ve been black or she gets cast as black you know it’s being done to increase the demographic appeal, get attention, or appear as being more diverse.

It’s really important to understand that the negative response isn’t about somehow not wanting to see black people cast for roles .. it’s about people going out of their way trying to look progressive and diverse in an artificial way.

When JK Rowling pretends she had no ethnicity in mind for Hermione, she’s just so colour-blind she can’t even distinguish a black person and a white person, instinctively you know she’s just being a creep looking for approval and positive press, trying to hop on the bandwagon of a popular issue.


This thing from Disney feels the same way to me; it’s not progressive, it doesn’t come from a good place.. It’s really off-putting, frankly, if you think too much about it.

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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#119 Post by kestasjk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:53 am

JECE wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:20 am
Honestly, this debate is so absurdly ridiculous.

Just think of the number of times that Peter Pan, a boy, has been cast by a woman. Here are just the most famous versions:
1904: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_and_Wendy
1924: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1924_film)
1950: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1950_musical)
1954: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1954_musical)
1976: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1976_musical)
1988: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1988_film)
1989: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan ... ted_Series
2004: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finding_Neverland_(film)
2012: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finding_N ... _(musical)
2014: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_Live!

I'm sure that most can think of a theater production with Peter Pan cast by a woman or girl that they themselves saw at some point without raising an eyebrow.

And for the record, at least two black boys have been cast as Peter Pan too, and the internet (I hope) didn't explode:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_(film)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_Away
I’d imagine that’s because Peter Pan is supposed to be young; having a 25 year old with stubble and a deep voice as Peter Pan wouldn’t be very convincing, nor would a 15 year old boy that sucks at acting. Wendy and Come away were adaptations; I’d love for Disney to make a real-life adaptation of the Little Mermaid that was entertaining and had something to say.

That no-one raised an eyebrow at these examples demonstrates that if there’s a reason for swapping things around besides being a publicity stunt people are fine with it.


Are you at least willing to acknowledge that people who find it distasteful might find it distasteful for reasons other than racism? It would be good if we can at least acknowledge we’re both coming at this and arguing our case with good intentions and motivations.
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Re: Are female superhero movies unpopular because…

#120 Post by Xerxes Worldweaver » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:31 pm

Doom427 wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:44 pm
There's something rather refreshing about seeing a reactionary remove the pretense and speak honestly about their ACTUAL thoughts. But I do have to wonder why they always pretend their beliefs are simultaneously something everyone believes and also are extreme unknown thoughts.

When you cut out the bullshit quite a few people do believe a woman's place is the home, only they also know (unlike the hardliners) that the only way you're gonna keep us there is with violent force. There's always gonna be some ladies who balk at being breeding sows. And some of them might even introduce lesbianism to the other wives and then your wonderful patriarchy might start to have a real problem on it's hands.

Ah lesbianism. What a wonderful term. Working off that concept, I have a thought experiment. Now, Mr. Worldweaver- what if the story was only about women? Just women beating the crap out of other women and ordering them around and other items that sound like a pornographic title. Would that be ok? Or would that it be bothersome too, because it doesn't portray women as The Most objectified type as required by patriarchy.

To be honest, a defense of the patriarchy does sound rather amusing - how does one claim to defend one of the largest all-encompising ideologies of all time? I'd find a defense of God less presumptuous - at least God has a question of existence. When it comes to patriarchy the only ones who deny it's strength are the very people trying to prove it's natural realness. If I have to be convinced the patriarchy is the natural configuration, does that not prove it's very unnaturalness?
I appreciate the tone of semi-friendly sarcasm as an alternative to ad hominems.

To answer your direct questions straightaway,
- No, I don't think making a movie where women are beating the crap out of exclusively other women really fixes the problem. It almost makes it worse - again, it is my position that women were not meant to be soldiers, for the express reason that they were not meant to be massacred, beaten, tortured, traumatized, or any such thing which fighting and war induce.
- No, you cannot prove that the patriarchy is unnatural simply by disbelieving in the patriarchy, just as a desert child cannot prove that snow is unnatural simply by disbelieving in snow. It is because so many people nowadays disbelieve in the patriarchy and outright assault the patriarchy that I think it requires a defence.
- I admit, my appeal to my premises as being 'something everybody knows' was partly laziness on my part. It'd be better said to be 'something I hope everybody knows'. Were I trying to convince someone that genocide is wrong, I would hope that I didn't have to convince him that murder is also wrong. Similarly, if I were to convince you that women shouldn't be soldiers, it is something to go off of if you can agree that the fight scenes which they are a part of in movies are somewhat ridiculous. No such luck, but that's fine. But we do need some kind of common ground if we're not going to argue about literally everything there is to be argued about. Perhaps I should begin by asking if you believe in objective truth? That's not something everyone believes in, but it's absolutely essential if we are to engage in a debate and have it mean something.

And to answer some of the other things I think I see in your reply:
- If a man has to keep his wife at home by the use of violent force, it was folly for them to marry at all.
- The objectivization of women as sex objects is an abomination, and I want porn abolished so that the men of the world will stop seeing women as toys to be used as they see fit. I would have no one subjected to such a fate as 'breeding sow'.
- "But that's exactly what the patriarchy is, men forcing women to do things they don't want to do." Okay, but might I ask what the government is then? A group of people forcing others to do things they don't want to do, is it not? But a real anarchist is rare. Most of us want some kind of government to protect us from criminals and other countries and so forth. If you want to proceed with a slightly more nuanced line of argument, go ahead - I am putting words in your mouth.
- Believing in the patriarchy does not mean that I believe women are property, just as believing in government does not mean that I believe tyrants should be allowed to do whatever the heck they want.

A reply to Kestas, and a more concrete vision of what a woman is meant to be, is to follow.
"I never discuss anything but politics and religion. There is nothing else to discuss." ~ G. K. Chesterton

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