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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:51 pm
by Octavious
orathaic wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:57 pm
Octavious wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:36 pm
orathaic wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:59 pm
Proposing the existence of anyone who would use abortion as a deliberate alternative to contraception is pretty fantastical
But that is exactly what you just did
What did i say?
That 30% of abortions are for women who already have children and who have decided that an additional child is not right for their family. These are people who have both thought about the issue in advance and have a good working knowledge of how pregnancy works and yet, with the exception of those who get unlucky, have also made the conscious decision not to use contraception.
I am unsure why you are objecting so strongly to the concept, Ora. If women genuinely believe that the early stage life inside them is in no meaningful sense human then aborting it as a failsafe measure if, say, the timing method was to fail, or they were simply caught without contraception and decided to risk it, would not be a controversial or traumatic decision.
Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:00 pm
by orathaic
Octavious wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:51 pm
orathaic wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:57 pm
Octavious wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:36 pm
But that is exactly what you just did
What did i say?
That 30% of abortions are for women who already have children and who have decided that an additional child is not right for their family. These are people who have both thought about the issue in advance and have a good working knowledge of how pregnancy works and yet, with the exception of those who get unlucky, have also made the conscious decision not to use contraception.
I am unsure why you are objecting so strongly to the concept, Ora. If women genuinely believe that the early stage life inside them is in no meaningful sense human then aborting it as a failsafe measure if, say, the timing method was to fail, or they were simply caught without contraception and decided to risk it, would not be a controversial or traumatic decision.
Wow, you seem to have ignored the fact that contraction fails every day.
And instead jumped to the conclusion that a) people aren't using it and b) they prefer for some reason to take painful and potentially dangerous risks with abortion.
Surely the morning after pill would be the preference in these cases...
Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:26 am
by Octavious
orathaic wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:00 pm
Octavious wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:51 pm
orathaic wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:57 pm
What did i say?
That 30% of abortions are for women who already have children and who have decided that an additional child is not right for their family. These are people who have both thought about the issue in advance and have a good working knowledge of how pregnancy works and yet, with the exception of those who get unlucky, have also made the conscious decision not to use contraception.
I am unsure why you are objecting so strongly to the concept, Ora. If women genuinely believe that the early stage life inside them is in no meaningful sense human then aborting it as a failsafe measure if, say, the timing method was to fail, or they were simply caught without contraception and decided to risk it, would not be a controversial or traumatic decision.
Wow, you seem to have ignored the fact that contraction fails every day.
And instead jumped to the conclusion that a) people aren't using it and b) they prefer for some reason to take painful and potentially dangerous risks with abortion.
Surely the morning after pill would be the preference in these cases...
Wow, you seem to have failed to read the bit where I specifically mentioned those who get unlucky, and then made a false conclusion based upon your error
Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:09 pm
by orathaic
It is a pity you can't have an genuine discussion.
I will repeat myself, nobody chooses abortion as an alternative to contraception. It is expensive, painful and time consuming. Even ignoring the shame laid on by religious groups seeking to force their morality on all.
It is a talking point created by those same moralists used to justify removing autonomy from all pregnant people. A strawman.
Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:58 pm
by Octavious
So the 30% you mentioned are what? Simpletons? Or are you saying that contraception is so inherently unreliable that it's virtually useless?
Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:51 pm
by orathaic
Just in case you honestly can't math.
30% of abortions is not 30% of people using contraception.
Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:43 pm
by Octavious
orathaic wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:51 pm
Just in case you honestly can't math.
30% of abortions is not 30% of people using contraception.
No attempt at an answer? Fine. If you can't be arsed to explain your position then I guess the discussion is over. I honestly have no idea what you wanted to get out of this. If you don't want the conversation the best way to go about it is simply not to start it.
Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:57 pm
by Fluminator
I am going to say, I think men specifically who sleep around and create embryos, fetuses, babies, whatever you call it in the womb without worry of what happens to it, are very irresponsible and literally treat life like garbage. I know you're horny, but assuming the new life you create is important, maybe put more effort into safe sex?
Men should do better.
Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:11 pm
by Octavious
Most men do fine, Fluminator. Although if you have anything to confess by all means do so. It's good for the soul.
As with all things, decent people are decent and scummy people are scummy. Whether or not they are men is immaterial, aside from the fact that scummy men have more opportunity to be scummy for logistical reasons
Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:50 pm
by orathaic
Octavious wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:43 pm
orathaic wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:51 pm
Just in case you honestly can't math.
30% of abortions is not 30% of people using contraception.
No attempt at an answer? Fine. If you can't be arsed to explain your position then I guess the discussion is over. I honestly have no idea what you wanted to get out of this. If you don't want the conversation the best way to go about it is simply not to start it.
I clearly did answer. Try reading what i wrote.
Most men do fine, Fluminator. Although if you have anything to confess by all means do so. It's good for the soul.
Shocking how your bias only applies to women almost as if you are just being a misogynist.
Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:01 pm
by Octavious
orathaic wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:50 pm
I clearly did answer. Try reading what i wrote.
You clearly did no such thing
orathaic wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:50 pm
Shocking how your bias only applies to women almost as if you are just being a misogynist.
Ah, retreating to petty insults I see. Quite how you're justifying this particular leap I have no idea. When in doubt hide behind your familiar tropes
Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:12 pm
by Fluminator
Octavious wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:11 pm
Most men do fine, Fluminator. Although if you have anything to confess by all means do so. It's good for the soul.
No I've become a virgin so I'm not part of the problem.
Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:27 pm
by Jamiet99uk
Fluminator wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:12 pm
Octavious wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:11 pm
Most men do fine, Fluminator. Although if you have anything to confess by all means do so. It's good for the soul.
No I've become a virgin so I'm not part of the problem.
I can assure you that some virgins are part of the problem.