More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

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Jamiet99uk
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#61 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 31, 2022 7:42 pm

worcej wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 4:20 pm

In general, people outside of the USA seem to forget that the states are effectively mini-countries and establish their own set of laws.
You have correctly pointed out to us that this causes a huge problem because those mini countries have no border controls, and therefore guns can be freely spread from the most lawless states into the more civilised ones.

What do you think can be done about that?
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#62 Post by worcej » Tue May 31, 2022 9:48 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 7:33 pm
worcej wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 4:00 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 11:54 am


But the purpose of the Second Amendment is so you can have a well-regulated militia.

So why did he have one?
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

At least try to be factually correct when you're being daft :P
With respect, I'm not going to read a 157 page court opinion document tonight.
The first two really is all you need, or just wikipedia the case lol

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#63 Post by worcej » Tue May 31, 2022 9:55 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 7:35 pm
I'm sure if you had a group of children trapped in a classroom, and a shotgun, you could kill several of them.
With respect, this gets back to the individual behind the gun being the problem - treat the individual and stop only going after the tool. We won't take away cars from people because some people die in drunk driving accidents, so why is it so crucial to ban/limit guns for law abiding citizens due to a substantially small minority of those that don't follow the law?

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#64 Post by worcej » Tue May 31, 2022 9:58 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 7:37 pm
worcej wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 4:20 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 11:56 am
Only, it seems to me that the "right to bear arms" part is what gun lovers focus on, and the "well regulated" part just gets ignored.

Because by any reasonable standard, firearms are barely regulated in Texas at all.

You want to talk about mental illness? I'd suggest that anyone who supports Texas's gun laws is mentally ill.
Already addressed the first part.

In general, people outside of the USA seem to forget that the states are effectively mini-countries and establish their own set of laws. The Federal government has control over many aspects, but beyond what the constitution outlines, the states have their ability to manage themselves. This is why marijuana is legal to purchase and consume in various states while still being a Schedule I substance under the Controlled Substances Act, which by definition means that it has a high potential for abuse, no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States, and a lack of accepted safety for use under medical supervision according to the federal government.

And I guess I am mentally ill based off your opinion lol...
I thought you didn't support Texas style gun laws?

Earlier in this thread you argued for various restrictions that would represent considerably more regulation than currently exists in Texas, such as your proposal to ban perpetrators of domestic violence from owning guns.
I absolutely support Texas' style of gun laws - which is you can own and use just about anything you want with little infringement.

But even in Texas, felons cannot own firearms. Expanding the laws to target people who also commit DV and/or animal cruelty charges doesn't impact 99% of gun owners and lets us own whatever the heck we want.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#65 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 31, 2022 10:01 pm

worcej wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 9:55 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 7:35 pm
I'm sure if you had a group of children trapped in a classroom, and a shotgun, you could kill several of them.
With respect, this gets back to the individual behind the gun being the problem - treat the individual and stop only going after the tool. We won't take away cars from people because some people die in drunk driving accidents, so why is it so crucial to ban/limit guns for law abiding citizens due to a substantially small minority of those that don't follow the law?
The primary purpose of cars is transport.

The primary purpose of guns is shooting people.
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#66 Post by worcej » Tue May 31, 2022 10:02 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 7:42 pm
worcej wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 4:20 pm

In general, people outside of the USA seem to forget that the states are effectively mini-countries and establish their own set of laws.
You have correctly pointed out to us that this causes a huge problem because those mini countries have no border controls, and therefore guns can be freely spread from the most lawless states into the more civilised ones.

What do you think can be done about that?
Honestly, nothing. Pandora's box is open when it comes to guns.

And to be crystal clear - there are no 'lawless states' vs 'civilized ones'. This isn't the wild west like you seem to think it is.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#67 Post by worcej » Tue May 31, 2022 10:02 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 10:01 pm
worcej wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 9:55 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 7:35 pm
I'm sure if you had a group of children trapped in a classroom, and a shotgun, you could kill several of them.
With respect, this gets back to the individual behind the gun being the problem - treat the individual and stop only going after the tool. We won't take away cars from people because some people die in drunk driving accidents, so why is it so crucial to ban/limit guns for law abiding citizens due to a substantially small minority of those that don't follow the law?
The primary purpose of cars is transport.

The primary purpose of guns is shooting people.
Yes, the tools are different and have different purposes - that isn't the point of my comment.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#68 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 31, 2022 10:05 pm

worcej wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 9:58 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 7:37 pm
worcej wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 4:20 pm
Already addressed the first part.

In general, people outside of the USA seem to forget that the states are effectively mini-countries and establish their own set of laws. The Federal government has control over many aspects, but beyond what the constitution outlines, the states have their ability to manage themselves. This is why marijuana is legal to purchase and consume in various states while still being a Schedule I substance under the Controlled Substances Act, which by definition means that it has a high potential for abuse, no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States, and a lack of accepted safety for use under medical supervision according to the federal government.

And I guess I am mentally ill based off your opinion lol...
I thought you didn't support Texas style gun laws?

Earlier in this thread you argued for various restrictions that would represent considerably more regulation than currently exists in Texas, such as your proposal to ban perpetrators of domestic violence from owning guns.
I absolutely support Texas' style of gun laws - which is you can own and use just about anything you want with little infringement.

But even in Texas, felons cannot own firearms. Expanding the laws to target people who also commit DV and/or animal cruelty charges doesn't impact 99% of gun owners and lets us own whatever the heck we want.
Ok, thanks for clarifying.

In that case, I think you're an uncivilized nutcase who has a weird hard-on for murder weapons. You're part of a toxic, dangerous, violent culture which prizes
a fetishized fantasy of individual choice over the lives of innocent people.

Glad we figured that out.
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#69 Post by worcej » Tue May 31, 2022 10:19 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 10:05 pm
Ok, thanks for clarifying.

In that case, I think you're an uncivilized nutcase who has a weird hard-on for murder weapons. You're part of a toxic, dangerous, violent culture which prizes
a fetishized fantasy of individual choice over the lives of innocent people.

Glad we figured that out.
That's fine I guess? Of note, I'd like to directly respond to this:

"You're part of a toxic, dangerous, violent culture which prizes
a fetishized fantasy of individual choice over the lives of innocent people."


I'd argue that you're entirely wrong and consistently are unable to grasp that the violent and fetishizing individuals are the ones that commit the mass murder, not the law abiding citizens like myself.

And honestly, you don't live here. So why do you really care? The fact that it could happen in the UK doesn't mean it will.

Finally - I just want the record to stand that really the only uncivilized one here is consistently you, in multiple discussion topics in this sub-forum, when it comes to people who don't agree with your opinion. You continually utilize emotional opinions instead of facts and when confronted with facts turn into a child that cries when his candy was taken away from him.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#70 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 31, 2022 10:36 pm

worcej wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 10:19 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 10:05 pm
Ok, thanks for clarifying.

In that case, I think you're an uncivilized nutcase who has a weird hard-on for murder weapons. You're part of a toxic, dangerous, violent culture which prizes
a fetishized fantasy of individual choice over the lives of innocent people.

Glad we figured that out.
That's fine I guess? Of note, I'd like to directly respond to this:

"You're part of a toxic, dangerous, violent culture which prizes
a fetishized fantasy of individual choice over the lives of innocent people."


I'd argue that you're entirely wrong and consistently are unable to grasp that the violent and fetishizing individuals are the ones that commit the mass murder, not the law abiding citizens like myself.

And honestly, you don't live here. So why do you really care? The fact that it could happen in the UK doesn't mean it will.

Finally - I just want the record to stand that really the only uncivilized one here is consistently you, in multiple discussion topics in this sub-forum, when it comes to people who don't agree with your opinion. You continually utilize emotional opinions instead of facts and when confronted with facts turn into a child that cries when his candy was taken away from him.
The children in this debate are the ones that are being murdered in mass shootings in your country, which never happen in mine.

You want to maintain the system of non-existent gun control in which your country sees these shootings take place.

My country does not have this problem.

It's your problem, and you don't want to solve it because you love your gun more than you love children's lives.
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#71 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 31, 2022 10:37 pm

I would like it if innocent children weren't shot to death in any country at all.

That's why I have an opinion.
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#72 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 31, 2022 10:40 pm

I live on planet earth and I'm entitled to an opinion on what happens there.

No man is an island, etc.
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#73 Post by worcej » Tue May 31, 2022 11:28 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 10:36 pm
worcej wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 10:19 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 10:05 pm
Ok, thanks for clarifying.

In that case, I think you're an uncivilized nutcase who has a weird hard-on for murder weapons. You're part of a toxic, dangerous, violent culture which prizes
a fetishized fantasy of individual choice over the lives of innocent people.

Glad we figured that out.
That's fine I guess? Of note, I'd like to directly respond to this:

"You're part of a toxic, dangerous, violent culture which prizes
a fetishized fantasy of individual choice over the lives of innocent people."


I'd argue that you're entirely wrong and consistently are unable to grasp that the violent and fetishizing individuals are the ones that commit the mass murder, not the law abiding citizens like myself.

And honestly, you don't live here. So why do you really care? The fact that it could happen in the UK doesn't mean it will.

Finally - I just want the record to stand that really the only uncivilized one here is consistently you, in multiple discussion topics in this sub-forum, when it comes to people who don't agree with your opinion. You continually utilize emotional opinions instead of facts and when confronted with facts turn into a child that cries when his candy was taken away from him.
The children in this debate are the ones that are being murdered in mass shootings in your country, which never happen in mine.

You want to maintain the system of non-existent gun control in which your country sees these shootings take place.

My country does not have this problem.

It's your problem, and you don't want to solve it because you love your gun more than you love children's lives.
See, this is exactly my point about you - you're emotionally focused and are not paying any attention to what I have been saying or any of the facts I am discussing. I want to solve this problem with practical and actionable solutions. I've been consistent in that we need to handle the PERSON and not the TOOL.

How do you do that you ask? Expand background checks to universal. Stop private gun sales without transfer of ownership paperwork, which requires background checks (the 'gun show' loophole). Confiscate firearms from criminals. Ramp up the ATF to target black market activities, including sales of guns. Provide severe punishments for ownership of any ghost guns. Improve the FBI's actions to stop a person of concern instead of just keeping them on a 'watch list'. Provide better mental counseling services to our youth who are demonstrating signs of depression.

We will not remove the guns from the United States, so stop trying to propose it. There are more guns here than people.

I look forward to you spinning my words in this post. I'll fire my first clip of my 1911 at the range today in your name Jamie 8-)
Last edited by worcej on Tue May 31, 2022 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#74 Post by worcej » Tue May 31, 2022 11:32 pm

You'll notice my solutions say nothing about 'you cannot own X' or 'your magazine size cannot be more than Y'.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#75 Post by worcej » Tue May 31, 2022 11:36 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 10:36 pm
It's your problem, and you don't want to solve it because you love your gun more than you love children's lives.
I have yet to see a practical solution come from you yet. You're just complaining and saying "America bad and uncivilized because guns."

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#76 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:03 am

worcej wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 11:28 pm
How do you do that you ask? Expand background checks to universal. Stop private gun sales without transfer of ownership paperwork, which requires background checks (the 'gun show' loophole). Confiscate firearms from criminals. Ramp up the ATF to target black market activities, including sales of guns. Provide severe punishments for ownership of any ghost guns. Improve the FBI's actions to stop a person of concern instead of just keeping them on a 'watch list'. Provide better mental counseling services to our youth who are demonstrating signs of depression.
Most if not all of these things would be a dramatic tightening of Texas's gun laws.

Yet you proudly stated you support Texas's gun laws.

Which is it?
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#77 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:08 am

I live in a society in which basically nobody owns a gun.

I go through life on a day-to-day basis with no fear of gun violence whatsoever.

I have never owned a gun.

I have never been threatened with a gun.

None of my family or friends owns a gun.

98% of our Police do not have guns.

The USA has a gun fetish and hundreds of people die every year because of it.

Your society needs to realise how fucked up it is. Children are dying because you cannot accept how fucked your culture is.
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#78 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:09 am

You love guns = you love gunshot deaths.

Get over it.
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#79 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:12 am

worcej wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 11:36 pm
I have yet to see a practical solution come from you yet. You're just complaining and saying "America bad and uncivilized because guns."
Option 1: Amend your constitution to replace the Second Amendment with a modern, sensible, regulatory approach to firearms.

Option 2: Accept that the majority of Americans think gun ownership is more important than children's lives.

That's it.

It's a binary choice.

Your society is constantly opting for Option 2. Again and again.

What are you doing to change it?
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#80 Post by worcej » Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:12 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:03 am
worcej wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 11:28 pm
How do you do that you ask? Expand background checks to universal. Stop private gun sales without transfer of ownership paperwork, which requires background checks (the 'gun show' loophole). Confiscate firearms from criminals. Ramp up the ATF to target black market activities, including sales of guns. Provide severe punishments for ownership of any ghost guns. Improve the FBI's actions to stop a person of concern instead of just keeping them on a 'watch list'. Provide better mental counseling services to our youth who are demonstrating signs of depression.
Most if not all of these things would be a dramatic tightening of Texas's gun laws.

Yet you proudly stated you support Texas's gun laws.

Which is it?
I already addressed this the first time you tried to paint me as a hypocrite.

I am beginning to realize you don’t actually give a shit about the issue and just want to argue with someone.

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