Lilith for Sainthood

[orathaic]

Bit of background first. The canonical Christian Bible contains two stories of creation obviously written by separate authors. In which man and woman are created twice. Hundreds of years later medieval scholars proposed an explanation which included the first woman refusing to bow down and serve Adam (created from the same clay as Adam rather than from a rib*) , hence the creation of Eve. This original woman they named Lilith, based on a reference elsewhere to some creature which without any other context is very difficult to translate.

*expecting to be treated as an equal and because yeah, literally made from the same stuff.

Lilith is later depicted variously as the mother of demons and fucking the archangel Samuel, or as bride of lucifer morning star.

The original word, difficult to translate as it is, has been interpreted as "night creatures", "night monster", "night hag", or "screech owl".

But I for one would like the call for sainthood for Lilith, her story is inspirational. The self-made woman, rejecting dependence on men, leaving 'the garden', and making her own choice, whether that be with Samuel or otherwise.

She seems like a far superior role model to eve, who is deceived in the garden by a serpent (though the punishment for knowledge seems a bit harsh, that is another story).

I would also argue that feminism be renamed Followers of Lilith (the original gender equality advocate!).

Cf: The Chilling Adventure's of Sabrina, and their depiction of Lilith.

[flash2015]

Are there any Saints defined pre-Christ though? Doesn't the person actually have to had existed to be a saint? The Catholic Church will quite openly say that most of the stuff in the old testament never happened.

[Jamiet99uk]

Are there any Saints defined pre-Christ though? Doesn't the person actually have to had existed to be a saint? The Catholic Church will quite openly say that most of the stuff in the old testament never happened.

The Archangels Michael and Gabriel are figures from the Old Testament (both appear in the book of Daniel) so are clearly pre-Christ, and the Catholic Church venerates both of them as saints.

[flash2015]

Are there any Saints defined pre-Christ though? Doesn't the person actually have to had existed to be a saint? The Catholic Church will quite openly say that most of the stuff in the old testament never happened.

The Archangels Michael and Gabriel are figures from the Old Testament (both appear in the book of Daniel) so are clearly pre-Christ, and the Catholic Church venerates both of them as saints.

OK, you are right. I stand corrected. They are both mentioned in the new testament too though...but they are still not real.

[flash2015]

The rules did change at some point. I guess they must be grandfathered in...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27140646

Probably not possible to bring in a new mythical person from the old testament now.

[orathaic]

I'm pretty sure Saint Brigid was. Pre-Christian* Celtic goddess by the same name... Not sure if one of her miracles - making an unwanted pregnancy painlessly dissappear - is exactly what planned parenthood do... Sure sounds similar

*Not sure this count as pre christ. Merely pre-Christianity arriving in Ireland. How much older the goddess Brigid is i am unclear.

[Fluminator]

Dude, there is so much interesting stuff in Jewish/Christian text outside the modern western Bible. Lilith is just the tip of the iceberg.

You have pre-adamic civilization, angels, fallen angels, giants, nephilum, alien/human sex, disembodied spirits/demons, human/animal hybrid experiments, asteroid belt planet being destroyed, celestial wars, etc.

[Fluminator]

It's actually all still in the Bible a little, but only casually referenced at this point.

[flash2015]

I'm pretty sure Saint Brigid was. Pre-Christian* Celtic goddess by the same name... Not sure if one of her miracles - making an unwanted pregnancy painlessly dissappear - is exactly what planned parenthood do... Sure sounds similar

*Not sure this count as pre christ. Merely pre-Christianity arriving in Ireland. How much older the goddess Brigid is i am unclear.

I suspect she was made a Saint (or created) to absorb the old Gaelic festival of Imbolc:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imbolc

just like Easter and Christmas absorbed other pagan festivals

[Fluminator]

The concept of sainthood itself, and praying to specific saints, was a way for the church to absorb polytheism

[Chaqa]

Just watch Supernatural to get your fill of apocrypha

[flash2015]

The concept of sainthood itself, and praying to specific saints, was a way for the church to absorb polytheism

I didn't know that you were such a realist about Christianity.

[Fluminator]

Most Protestants are aware of it. It's probably the source of the biggest rift with Catholics, so it's not particularly controversial among Protestants.

(Although I do consider myself a realist, in the sense I don't believe the Bible is infallible, and think most of the religion/culture is man made. That part of me usually only comes out when I'm talking to fundamentalists though)

[orathaic]

Dude, there is so much interesting stuff in Jewish/Christian text outside the modern western Bible. Lilith is just the tip of the iceberg.

You have pre-adamic civilization, angels, fallen angels, giants, nephilum, alien/human sex, disembodied spirits/demons, human/animal hybrid experiments, asteroid belt planet being destroyed, celestial wars, etc.

I did hear a bit about the difference between Yaweh and Jehova? I think it was, suggesting a polytheistic root in Judaism's past. And how their god was only the local god of that area, and Zeus, Ra and various other gods were simalr 'rank' for want of a better term.

And separately how they imported monotheism from Zoroastrianism in the something something BCE...

See also:
https://youtu.be/4Kpkp2vxX3I
And
https://youtu.be/hl9QgeHdKYk

But I had assumed the cannon bible had removed most of these references.

[Octavious]

Was Lilith the one who invented the medicinal compound that proved most efficasious in every case?

[Fluminator]

I did hear a bit about the difference between Yaweh and Jehova? I think it was, suggesting a polytheistic root in Judaism's past. And how their god was only the local god of that area, and Zeus, Ra and various other gods were simalr 'rank' for want of a better term.

And separately how they imported monotheism from Zoroastrianism in the something something BCE...

See also:
https://youtu.be/4Kpkp2vxX3I
And
https://youtu.be/hl9QgeHdKYk

But I had assumed the cannon bible had removed most of these references.

I’m very much a nerd on this so I’m not sure you realized what you were getting into asking me that lol

The debate on if Yahweh and Jehova were the same God was pretty active in the early church and for a long time after. It sometimes still exists but it’s usually framed as “Is the Old Testament God the same as the New Testament God?” All mainstream Christians at this point are firmly on the side of yes though.

One of the apocryphal books featured a debate between Paul and Simon the Sorcerer on this matter, and I remember Simon made some good points in favour they were different lol. One example is Yahweh was apparently unable to take out iron chariots, which is strange for an omnipotent God:

Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

I think a better term for the religious culture of Mesopotamia is henotheism, not polytheism. It's where you don’t deny other gods exist but you still only worship one. When one kingdom conquered another, it was usually seen as a victory of their god over the other god. (And indeed you see this in some Bible stories where the Philistines conquered Israel and put the arc in their god’s temple)

Not even the 10 commandments really contradict this. (“You shall not worship other gods”, is different from saying “I am the only God”) You also have the Old Testament constantly clarifying Yawheh is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (why only them?). There are many points in favour of the Jews at this point being henotheistic (sourced from the Bible no less).
It does seem compelling that Zoroastrianism would have been a main source of the shift later.

With regard to the Nephilum, the biggest source for that is the book of Enoch. It’s still in the Biblical canon in Ethiopia, but in the west it’s only referenced or quoted in it. But in Genesis there is still a clear mention that Angels breeded with Humans to create Nephilum who would be a source of the giants in the land. Genesis treats it like it’s common knowledge and doesn’t go too in depth though.

[Jamiet99uk]

Are there any Saints defined pre-Christ though? Doesn't the person actually have to had existed to be a saint? The Catholic Church will quite openly say that most of the stuff in the old testament never happened.

The Archangels Michael and Gabriel are figures from the Old Testament (both appear in the book of Daniel) so are clearly pre-Christ, and the Catholic Church venerates both of them as saints.

OK, you are right. I stand corrected. They are both mentioned in the new testament too though...but they are still not real.

This is a puzzling comment.

Which parts of the Bible do you think are "real"?

[flash2015]

The Archangels Michael and Gabriel are figures from the Old Testament (both appear in the book of Daniel) so are clearly pre-Christ, and the Catholic Church venerates both of them as saints.

OK, you are right. I stand corrected. They are both mentioned in the new testament too though...but they are still not real.

This is a puzzling comment.

Which parts of the Bible do you think are "real"?

This is a puzzling comment. Hadn't I made this clear in a different thread about Roman records and Jesus existence? Very little of it. But of course there are characters mentioned in the Bible which likely did exist (like St. Paul and Pontius Pilate).

[Jamiet99uk]

OK, you are right. I stand corrected. They are both mentioned in the new testament too though...but they are still not real.

This is a puzzling comment.

Which parts of the Bible do you think are "real"?

This is a puzzling comment. Hadn't I made this clear in a different thread about Roman records and Jesus existence? Very little of it. But of course there are characters mentioned in the Bible which likely did exist (like St. Paul and Pontius Pilate).

Is there much point in a bunch of atheists and agnostics talking on a forum about which other Biblical characters should be saints?

We do know how to waste our time here, lol.

[MajorMitchell]

Greetings Dipcomrade Orathaic, there might be some essence of Lilith reincarnated in my Adorable Fire Breathing Mem Sahib Her Lovely Serene Imperiousness Indoors lounging on a sofa knitting her new Rainbow Gollywogs.
I'm certain I have mentioned Hypatia, a lady mathematician, astronomer.and intellectual of ancient Alexandria and her unfortunate death, murdered it is thought by religious zealots in the funding between traditional "pagans" (which in it's way is a denigrating term for worshippers of animal spirits etc including ancient deities) and the extremely aggressive Grecian Christians who also burnt Alexandria's famous library during this period of religious strife.