US authoritarianism

[Octavious]

Ah, I see.

I think that is complete nonsense and would need to see some extremely convincing evidence before assuming that was a remotely plausible narrative.

[RoganJosh]

Oct, I'm not guessing. This is what republicans said their plan was. Here's Michigan's Speaker of the House laying it out for you, from three days ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt1bbyF ... e=emb_logo

Notice 'the president did not ask us to violate the law,' but RNC still asking for a two week delay of certification, in violation of MI election law. And he's blatantly ignoring that the sate can not audit before certification. And then of course, 'no certification put's it in the hand of state legislatures'.

[RoganJosh]

I do agree that the plan was nonsense. Probability of succeeding with is was zero.

The reason why this undermines democracy is that a large group of republican voters now believe that violating election laws is necessary to preserve the integrity of the vote.

[Octavious]

That is a long way short of convincing evidence. Come on, there has to be something more than that.

[RoganJosh]

Convincing evidenc of what? They Trump campaign has even stated explicitly in their lawsuits that they want the legislatures to pick the winners.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -election-

Again, you're not paying attention. And it leaves most of your arguments moot.

[RoganJosh]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ction-case

I managed to post only half of the link..

[orathaic]

That is a long way short of convincing evidence. Come on, there has to be something more than that.

Short of evidence? What are we trying to prove? That Trump, through his actions, has undermined democracy? That he has increased the like hood of a violent transition of power?

That much is blatantly obvious, the only question is how much violence there will be.

[Octavious]

You are trying to prove a coup attempt, ora. The burden of proof is high

[orathaic]

You are trying to prove a coup attempt, ora. The burden of proof is high

I don't know what makes you think that. The word coup has been thrown around a lot lately; what do you think it means?

[orathaic]

Apparently I'm not the only one warning about Trump inciting violence https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-55153918

[flash2015]

Arizona GOP asks supporters whether they are willing to die to overturn election results:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/po ... 488952002/

Trump supporters place full-page ad in the conservative Washington Times asking for martial law:

https://www.wfla.com/news/political-gro ... -election/

[orathaic]

https://twitter.com/ArmlessKittyfox/sta ... 57824?s=19

This is what we meant when we said that fascists don't simply let you vote then out of office: exactly what we said.

[orathaic]

Latest on the threat of violence which Oct was belittling, yay for my worst predictions not being bad enough, I guess.

The head of the Texas Republican Party floated the threat of seceding from the U.S. in a tantrum over the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision to bounce a baseless Texas election lawsuit.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5fd4 ... fd43a3/amp

[flash2015]

US republican congressman, Louie Gohmert, after a federal judge rejected his lawsuit aiming to force Vice President Mike Pence to overturn the election suggested that violence may now be the only option:

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politic ... idens-win/

At least 120 Republican congressmen/women and 12 Senators are going to vote to try and overturn the election result Wednesday:

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/0 ... nge-453430

[MajorMitchell]

I'm not particularly interested in defending or attacking posts by others in this thread but I will make these observations.
1 Octavious our Oracle used the same dismissive criticism several times of "it's the typical left wing fear mongering" (as I paraphrase it)
Now I would suggest that as far as fear mongering in the USA goes that over the last four years it's the extremists on the right wing who have led the way in the amount of fear mongering by a substantial margin.

So I would put this proposition to Octavious. The fear mongering of right wing extremists in the USA over the last four years has been substantial, has been encouraged by Trump and has been detrimental to democratic institutions and processes in the USA.
Do you Octavious accept that this proposition is valid?
I'm not asserting that extremists on the left engaged in zero fear mongering during that period.

What is, or is not fear is often a subjective opinion, the old eye if the beholder caper.
I will give a classic example of what I regard as right wing propaganda, the criticism that equates advocating that a nation state provides universal free/affordable public education and health services with Communism and/or Socialism and that it's anti-capitalistic policy.

I assert that any nation state with a capitalist economy should provide universal free or affordable public education including Tertiary Education and health services as a pro~capitalist policy using taxes on private sector businesses to fund these services to the population of the nation state. Why? There's an economic concept known as "human capital" and I assert that a key way for a nation state with a capitalist economy to achieve the highest possible GDP per capita, then having the healthiest best educated best skilled population is a fundamental requirement.
It's like a nation state cracking down hard on tobacco to drive smoking rates below 10%, it's clearly beneficial over the long term.

Yet universal health and education services is demonised by opponents.

How do the protagonists respond to this? Is advocating that a nation state with a capitalist economy raises taxes from private sector businesses to fund universal health and education services that are free or easily affordable.

The text book example is the post WW2 rise of Singapore and Germany's education system with easily affordable Tertiary Education and it's powerhouse economy are just unlinked coincidence, or directly related?

[MajorMitchell]

Bit of correction. At the end I ask the protagonists to respond to what I was advocating, but should have finished it better by asking if they see it as equated to Communism or Socialism or is it as I assert, pro Capitalist?

[Octavious]

Hi Major

You'll have to forgive me, I've hardly been here for a month or so and have lost track of what this is about. I believe it was a load of bollocks from our more excitable extreme lefties talking about a Trump coup, which is as far removed from reality now as it was then. If you're asking if there are right wingers in America who are equally idiotic and purse similar nonsense narratives then I dare say you're right, but I tend not to encounter any. As far as Trump goes, I'm not sure that he is much of a fear monger. If anything quite the reverse. His concerns over China see rather valid, and showing a tad more concern over coronavirus may have been preferable. If you're talking about the stuff some Republicans come out with about the world ending in a Communist hell if the Democrats take over, then that certainly qualifies, but it's so ridiculous you kind of tune it out and stop noticing.

[RoganJosh]

Oct has a lot of assertions. And he's the master of bothsiderisms. But never any arguments.

[Octavious]

Don't worry, Josh, the passage of time is the only argument I need. Just like with Brexit, what is blatantly obvious to me and the vast majority of people will become obvious to you soon enough. Why bust a gut trying to convince a zealot that the sun will rise in the morning when one can simply wait for the sun?

[flash2015]

Octavious is of course making the classic "false dilemma/dichotomy" argument fallacy (he likes to do this a lot. It is a great way to derail threads):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

In his world there are only two options - "Trump institutes a coup" or "no cause for concern". Following this logic, if Trump isn't successful with his coup then there was no cause for concern. QED.

The problem is that this is complete BS. There is a whole range of valid opinions between "no concern" to some "minor concern" to "significant concern" all the way to "Trump is guaranteed to have a successful coup". The two options which Octavious is suggesting are the only valid ones are actually the ones which can be most likely dismissed out of hand.