Elon Musk plans US - UK war in 2025

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

By what metric? Four years of them convinced the American people that they actually preferred Trump. Convinced them enough to win the popular vote as well as the electoral college, which is quite an achievement for a party that has so little interest in the popular vote. And this was no longer the theoretical "drain the swamp and give the establishment a kicking" Trump. This was people voting for Trump based on Biden and Trump's actual performance.

"Lots of people like him therefore he's good" doesn't really hold up.

A fairly slim majority of Americans preferred him.

You are in the minority for being a non-US Trump supporter. A survey conducted by Novus in collaboration with Gallup International examined views across 44 countries. The results revealed that a majority of respondents worldwide favored Kamala Harris, with 54% indicating they would vote for her, compared to 26% for Donald Trump (the rest being undecided).

From the perspective of us foreigners, Trump's period of government tends to be a lot less war-y, which is nice. I don't really care a great deal about US domestic policy. If they want to change their abortion laws to a model that more closely resembles the EU then that's their business. Of course that happened under President Biden rather than Trump, but the principle is the same.

I think reasonable people should be at least torn about Trump's manner of ending wars.

You yourself in another thread castigated the West for abandoning Afghanistan - a policy choice that was executed by Biden because of timing, but driven forward and committed to by Trump. Trump signed the Doha agreement in 2020 that set out the US' complete withdrawal.

I think Ukraine needs to end in a settlement. I also think that Trump's approach of "I'll end it on day one" is obviously incredibly damaging to the Ukrainian bargaining position. Shouldn't the "art of the deal" man know when to play hardball? Or does he only do that with allies while letting Russia off the hook?

The best thing about Trump by a country mile is that he really annoys a lot of the people I enjoy seeing annoyed, and that makes me happy.

Extremely childish perspective.

[Octavious]

Lots of people like him therefore he's good" doesn't really hold up.

Moving goalposts much? Come on, Bert, you're better than that. The discussion was over whether Biden was "much better than Trumptoad", and in that context the opinion of the many millions of Americans who have experienced living under both of them holds up pretty well as the best yardstick available. Not to say Trump is a good President, no, but very much so to say that the idea Biden is clearly superior is highly suspect.

You are in the minority for being a non-US Trump supporter. A survey conducted by Novus in collaboration with Gallup International examined views across 44 countries. The results revealed that a majority of respondents worldwide favored Kamala Harris, with 54% indicating they would vote for her, compared to 26% for Donald Trump (the rest being undecided).

Polls conducted in foreign nations for overseas politicians are never particularly reliable, but the ones I've seen show a distinct dislike for Trump in Europe, Australia, South Korea etc, but surprisingly enthusiastic support across Africa and Asia. I am, of course, not technically a Trump supporter in the sense that I wouldn't be inclined to vote for him. I thought that Biden was worse, and that Kamala was a poor candidate to replace him, and Trump's record in office didn't much resemble the media portrayal. They may move me closer to the Trump camp than most Brits, but MAGA I am not.

I think reasonable people should be at least torn about Trump's manner of ending wars.

Yes

You yourself in another thread castigated the West for abandoning Afghanistan - a policy choice that was executed by Biden because of timing, but driven forward and committed to by Trump. Trump signed the Doha agreement in 2020 that set out the US' complete withdrawal.

In another thread, and indeed in this one. I'm surprised you missed it.

Trump's actions previously helped set up Biden's moment of supreme cowardice and evil. Good reason to be repulsed by both of them.

If my goal was enthusiastic support of all things Trump, I fear I'm letting the side down somewhat

I think Ukraine needs to end in a settlement. I also think that Trump's approach of "I'll end it on day one" is obviously incredibly damaging to the Ukrainian bargaining position. Shouldn't the "art of the deal" man know when to play hardball? Or does he only do that with allies while letting Russia off the hook?

Ukraine position is that it does what it's told by the West or it ceases to exist. Putin is well aware of the situation in Ukraine, and the direction of public opinion across the West. Expressing a desire for peace is traditionally a good first step in achieving peace.

Extremely childish perspective.

And no less true because of it. It is also true that misery endured by certain Trump enthusiasts after Biden's last win was also rather satisfying. It is in part testament to the uninspiring nature of both candidates that the reactions of the people they beat is the most satisfying thing about them, but it is a little childish, yes. I make no apology for not pretending all my motives are highbrow, pure, and holier than thou

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Moving goalposts much? Come on, Bert, you're better than that. The discussion was over whether Biden was "much better than Trumptoad", and in that context the opinion of the many millions of Americans who have experienced living under both of them holds up pretty well as the best yardstick available. Not to say Trump is a good President, no, but very much so to say that the idea Biden is clearly superior is highly suspect.

You're right this was glib of me. Frankly I just kind of ignore MM's posts lol so I was incorrectly focusing on your statements in isolation.

Polls conducted in foreign nations for overseas politicians are never particularly reliable, but the ones I've seen show a distinct dislike for Trump in Europe, Australia, South Korea etc, but surprisingly enthusiastic support across Africa and Asia. I am, of course, not technically a Trump supporter in the sense that I wouldn't be inclined to vote for him. I thought that Biden was worse, and that Kamala was a poor candidate to replace him, and Trump's record in office didn't much resemble the media portrayal. They may move me closer to the Trump camp than most Brits, but MAGA I am not.

Unless they're polls showing Canadians are okay becoming Americans right? Then they're revealing

The point being that, while a surprising number of Americans thought Trump was the better candidate in the last election, such an assessment is far from universal. Many people in the US and abroad think his flaws were worse than Biden/Harris.

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My point re: Afghanistan wasn't a lapse in reading comprehension. I was hoping to push you to clarify what about Trump you find at least somewhat appealing.

The only actual policy thing you mentioned was foreign policy, then you went on to say he was at least as bad as the alternative. It seems relevant to me that Trump is the most blameworthy person for the withdrawal from Afghanistan, a policy decision that upsets you.

I suppose from your "fewer wars" comment you mean to say Ukraine and/or Israel-Gaza might have been averted if Trump had a second term in 2021? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Ukraine position is that it does what it's told by the West or it ceases to exist. Putin is well aware of the situation in Ukraine, and the direction of public opinion across the West. Expressing a desire for peace is traditionally a good first step in achieving peace.

You've correctly identified the reality of the situation, but haven't said anything about why "I'll force them to sign a deal on the first day of my presidency" is a good strategy. It seems to me rather abysmal, especially for the self-professed tough "dealmaker".

Extremely childish perspective.

And no less true because of it. It is also true that misery endured by certain Trump enthusiasts after Biden's last win was also rather satisfying. It is in part testament to the uninspiring nature of both candidates that the reactions of the people they beat is the most satisfying thing about them, but it is a little childish, yes. I make no apology for not pretending all my motives are highbrow, pure, and holier than thou

So you're happy with whoever wins so long as politics is divided and people are upset? I guess it's good to find fun wherever you can. Extraordinary partisanship feels annoying and kind of dangerous to me.

I can't heap enough blame on the Left for the way they've persecuted the culture war and their general hysteria about normal political disagreements. But I definitely see Trump as massively inflaming this issue. Almost any other Republican leader would have turned down the overall volume of this nonsense and that would have been good for everyone. Unfortunately I think rather a lot of people like upsetting their political opponents for fun and prefer the insulter-in-Chief. That's what I find particularly childish.

[CaptainFritz28]

On the last point I must say that I rather agree with Bert. As someone who even voted for the fellow, and thus obviously believe him better than the alternative, to me that's a glaring problem of his, not another reason to vote for him. I'll still be glad when Trump gets out of office in 4 years and we have the chance to see what the Republican party can really provide, or if Trump was its last hope and it needs reorganization on a major scale.

I voted for Trump because I thought he was the best candidate running. That doesn't mean I think he is the ideal or even very good, but better than the alternative. We've had enough division, which no candidate in the last 8 or so years (also notably when I started to take notice of politics, so it's probably longer than that) has helped relieve, whether by making Trump the source of all evil or from Trump's methods of describing the Democrats. No one wants any more, it just let's the government divide and distract the people with petty issues while they get things done that may or may not be detrimental to us.

[Octavious]

Unless they're polls showing Canadians are okay becoming Americans right? Then they're revealing

An opinion poll specifically targeted at Canadians for the purpose of gauging Canadian public opinion regarding a specific question tends to be far more reliable than an attempt at cobbling together a global opinion based on presumably small sample sizes from a handful of pin in the map sample countries, yes. I'm making a series of assumptions in this, I'm aware, but I've seen a few of these global opinion type surveys before and I don't remember ever seeing a good one.

I suppose from your "fewer wars" comment you mean to say Ukraine and/or Israel-Gaza might have been averted if Trump had a second term in 2021? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Essentially, yes. I believe Biden's weakness on the world stage has allowed for far more dangerous situations to develop than would have been the case with strong US leadership. I'm also inclined to think Afghanistan would have been handled rather differently with Trump at the helm from the start, but we're moving into wild speculation there which isn't particularly useful. His grim handling of the situation he was dealt was consistent with the "America first, sod everyone else" philosophy he campaigned on... so yay democracy and honoring

You've correctly identified the reality of the situation, but haven't said anything about why "I'll force them to sign a deal on the first day of my presidency" is a good strategy. It seems to me rather abysmal, especially for the self-professed tough "dealmaker".

manifesto pledges...

I think a declaration that the US is minded to seek a settlement is far superior to the mindset of ever increasing escalation and Russia must lose at any cost philosophy of the Biden regime. The lack of any obvious pathway to peace under Biden has been by far the most depressing feature of the war.

Signing a deal on the first day sounds like an aim rather than an intent... although it wouldn't come as a massive surprise if some kind of intermediate agreement was ready to roll out. I don't think it's particularly likely, but you never know.

So you're happy with whoever wins so long as politics is divided and people are upset? I guess it's good to find fun wherever you can. Extraordinary partisanship feels annoying and kind of dangerous to me.

Not happy, no. But yes, always take joy where you can. There's nothing remotely partisan about it. Most Democrats and Republicans are thoroughly decent people. But there is a hardcore lunatic fringe of both sides who are hilarious to watch when they lose. If Harris had won then Musk throwing his toys out of the pram would have been delightful

[Crazy Anglican]

Unless they're polls showing Canadians are okay becoming Americans right?

Aren’t Canadians (and Brazilians for that matter) already Americans? Shame on the founding father for coming up with such an unwieldy name that we had to co-opt two continents just to come up with a suitable Proper Adjective.

[Octavious]

I'm not going to let being clearly far less qualified to answer this point than some of our members stop me from giving it a go

Canadians are American in a similar sense that Egyptians are Africans. They know this is true on some level, but it's such an unimportant level it rarely enters conscious thought. The Canadian sense of identity is primarily centred on being Canadian, with a significant secondary sense of not being American (of the US type), and moving on from that being a citizen of the world. Being a citizen of the American continent is not really on their radar.

[Jamiet99uk]

FUCK Donald Trump.

He is the most ignorant CUNT of a President since Thomas Jefferson. He should have a heart attack and die as soon as possible.

If you support Trump:
FUCK YOU, YOU ARE A NAZI CUNT

[Jamiet99uk]

MUSK LITERALLY GAVE A NAZI SALUTE THIS AFTERNOON.

Holy shit.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/cpdxzjw9p47o

It will be argued endlessly back and forth about whether this was some spastic "my heart goes out to you" gesture or a blatant (and twice repeated) Nazi salute. Yet another political Rorschach test.

When I first read about it I thought it was horseshit, grasping at straws, yet another "good people on both sides" media hallucination. After watching it I'm fairly convinced it was intentional, some kind of disgusting trolling. Pretty fucking horrible.

[flash2015]

I can't heap enough blame on the Left for the way they've persecuted the culture war and their general hysteria about normal political disagreements. But I definitely see Trump as massively inflaming this issue. Almost any other Republican leader would have turned down the overall volume of this nonsense and that would have been good for everyone. Unfortunately I think rather a lot of people like upsetting their political opponents for fun and prefer the insulter-in-Chief. That's what I find particularly childish.

I know I lean left on social issues (at least I thought I did). But these culture warriors and hyper-partisans on the left have in the last few years become utterly insufferable. I thought the idea was that everyone can live how they like. You may not like how other people live but we all should be able to tolerate (though not be forced to celebrate/fund) other lifestyles/moral values. But for the left wing culture warriors they believe that only their morality is right and everyone else is evil. They are out to completely and utterly crush their ideological opposition. They give no quarter.

When I originally saw the "liberal tears" nonsense several years ago and this general idea of taking enjoyment in people losing, I like you thought it was childish/stupid/mean. How can anyone get enjoyment in the suffering of others? But I feel I can understand it now. I really didn't want Trump to win (I would never vote for him) but I have to admit I secretly really wanted these left wing hyper partisan sanctimonious, science and language distorting, ostracize at a drop of the hat, censorious manipulative a***holes to lose and to feel that loss. The culture debates cannot continue like this.

I agree that Trump shoulders a lot of the original blame for inflaming a lot of this...but at least currently on the Democratic side these culture issues are the one thing they will not in any way shape or form compromise on. I am not sure I want them to win again until they will.

[kingofthepirates]

Off topic, but...

He is the most ignorant CUNT of a President since Thomas Jefferson.

dang mate what do you have against jefferson ;-;
Also um mild disagree, there were some pretty bad presidents in the middle...

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Off topic, but...

He is the most ignorant CUNT of a President since Thomas Jefferson.

dang mate what do you have against jefferson ;-;
Also um mild disagree, there were some pretty bad presidents in the middle...

Jefferson pretended to be against slavery but owned over 600 slaves and did not free them even upon his own death. He had a sexual relationship with his deceased wife's half sister, who was also his slave (his late wife's father had a mixed race child born into slaver).

[Jamiet99uk]

Off topic, but...

He is the most ignorant CUNT of a President since Thomas Jefferson.

dang mate what do you have against jefferson ;-;
Also um mild disagree, there were some pretty bad presidents in the middle...

Jefferson pretended to be against slavery but owned over 600 slaves and did not free them even upon his own death. He had a sexual relationship with his deceased wife's half sister, who was also his slave (his late wife's father had a mixed race child born into slaver).

Yeah exactly this.

Fuck Thomas Jefferson, piss on his grave.

[Octavious]

You know, after several years of observations I've concluded that Jamie is governed by a regular cycle that determines whether or not he considers cunt to be an appropriate insult or a misogynistic slur. I believe that it's linked to the phases of the Moon. We are currently at peak cunt which remarkably coincides with a half Moon, the lunar phase linked with the greatest conflict between light and dark.

The Nazi salute is an interesting one. Obviously it's not a real Nazi salute, as the whole point of them is being a display of cultural dominance and you can't do that subtly. It's either very obviously a Nazi salute or it isn't a Nazi salute.

So the question is whether it was just a rather awkward and excitable man in the limelight looking like an awkward man in the limelight, or whether it's an intentional attempt to create headlines about "that looked a bit like a Nazi Salute" rather than the huge amount of important things that are going on in Trump's first few days. I don't know.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

The Nazi salute is an interesting one. Obviously it's not a real Nazi salute, as the whole point of them is being a display of cultural dominance and you can't do that subtly. It's either very obviously a Nazi salute or it isn't a Nazi salute.

So the question is whether it was just a rather awkward and excitable man in the limelight looking like an awkward man in the limelight, or whether it's an intentional attempt to create headlines about "that looked a bit like a Nazi Salute" rather than the huge amount of important things that are going on in Trump's first few days. I don't know.

A Nazi salute done as a joke, to shock, or to distract is in fact still a Nazi salute. I knew you'd make excuses for it. Indeed, it seemed like a intentional and even rehearsed stunt meant to bring out the "but maybe" crowd in full force and to get Trump sympathizers to defend a Nazi salute lol and it has succeeded in distracting from the executive orders.

[Octavious]

Not really. Nazis salutes have been used for entertainment value and comic effect for many decades. There is a clear and obvious difference between the actual Nazi salutes of the Nuremberg Rally and the amusing antics of Lieutenant Gruber. Context and intent are everything, otherwise you label the vast majority of schoolboys as Nazis which is clearly ridiculous.

In all honesty I'm getting a little irritated by your recent inclination to label everything you disagree with as a defence of the other side. It's not a defence, it's my interpretation of what happened. Musk is a nasty piece of work and I'd be delighted for him to be removed from positions of power, but that doesn't mean I'm going to say that that was a Nazi salute unless I actually believe that it is

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Your distinctions here read like a defense. When a 12 year old school boy does a Nazi salute it's wrong and the kid should be punished. When a senior US official does it at a political rally it seems extra wrong — yet here you are splitting hairs in a manner that aims to let Musk off the hook.

I'm inclined to agree that Musk was joking or provoking, rather than signalling the start of the 4th Reich. I still find it rather easy to condemn that action and to say it is totally beyond the pale.

If your point is instead that you think those salutes were just happenstance then I feel like we didn't see the same video, and I've got a bridge to sell you.

[Octavious]

No, when a schoolboy does it he's playing wargames or (in the not so distant past) doing a Faulty Towers or Allo Allo impression, or just mocking the Nazis like pretty much everyone who actually fought them and their children did. There is literally nothing to punish unless he was deliberately using it to try and intimate or upset someone, which I've never seen happen in person. Again, intent and context are everything.

My point, which I thought I clearly stated, is that I don't know what was going on. I find the idea that he was completely oblivious to it plausible, as he has lived an entire life playing the role of an intelligent man with some pretty remarkable blind spots. It is in keeping with his past actions. I find the idea plausible that he wanted to create something that, if you squint a bit and focus entirely on the arm, resembles a Nazi salute enough to make the usual suspects very excitable. I find the idea that he genuinely thought it was a Nazi salute extremely unlikely... firstly because why? And also because in the alternate universe where he wanted to do a Nazi salute he would do a far better one.

[CaptainFritz28]

This is a bit random, but may I ask why the Nazis in particular, their symbols, their ways, and their leader are singled out to be banned in every way shape or form, while the USSR, it's symbols, its ways, and its leaders are ignored? If someone makes a Nazi joke it's evil, but if someone makes a joke about Stalin or mid 20th-century Russia it's funny. Aren't they both evil? Why aren't they treated that way?

I don't mean that we shouldn't frown up the former, I just wonder why we have a double standard and don't treat anything quite like the Nazi party, even when such organizations as the USSR killed millions more and ought to be treated similarly.