War, what is it good for?

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Jamiet99uk
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#501 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Nov 02, 2023 6:18 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:43 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2023 4:49 pm
Octavious wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2023 4:13 pm
I am delighted to confirm, Jamie, that you have indeed grasped the fundamentals of my position. None of the aforementioned nations could perform a leadership role with the human rights council without causing a great deal of justified anger from other nations and a sense of despair from supporters of human rights across the globe.
Do you know how the chairs of UN committees and forums are selected?
It's not exactly a process that's particularly opaque, but I believe that the President selects the nation from a shortlist drawn up from a regional block. But I'm not entirely sure how that's relevant
It is my understanding that they are elected, but have to be nominated by a regional block. In this case, the Iranian ambassador to the UN, the nominee of the Asia-Pacific block, was the only candidate put forward. I would be interested to know why outraged governments in the US, UK, EU and elsewhere did not care enough to see that other candidates were put forward.

I suppose the problem is, who should decide which nations are "competent" and which are not?
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#502 Post by Octavious » Thu Nov 02, 2023 7:24 pm

I think there's potential for getting agreement for a framework of rules (something similar to the UK driving test, with any majors [found guilty of war crimes in the last x years, say] being an immediate ban and lessor violations or not yet proven allocations counting as minors that if you get enough of also rule you out. An internationally recognised judge, or panel of, can rule on who does or doesn't make the grade
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Election year!

#503 Post by Octavious » Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:52 pm

No, I'm not talking about this month's election in Argentina, in which the Argentine people have narrowed the choice of President to the idiot who shoulders much of the responsibility for their current economic crisis, and someone who is stark raving mad. I'm talking about next year which will see the Russian, US, and quite possibly Ukraine elections.

There will also likely be UK elections, but both likely winners have identical Ukraine policies (and identical policies for rather a lot of other things for that matter), so it's not really worth talking about.

Any initial thoughts? With both Russian and Ukrainian offensives having failed abysmally it certainly feels like the war will be decided at the ballot box rather than the front lines
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#504 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:08 pm

Before mentioning various elections...

Today UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres has said that Gaza is becoming "a graveyard for children", as health ministry figures report that over 10,000 people have now died in Gaza, over 4,000 of them children.

I said Israel planned to put the people of Gaza into mass graves and that is what is happening.
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#505 Post by Octavious » Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:19 pm

You are very quick to trust the word of a terrorist organisation, Jamie. The reality is that there are no reliable casualty figures from the region, and your lie that Israel wishes to move all Gazans to mass graves remains as deranged now as when you first said it
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#506 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:35 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:19 pm
You are very quick to trust the word of a terrorist organisation, Jamie. The reality is that there are no reliable casualty figures from the region, and your lie that Israel wishes to move all Gazans to mass graves remains as deranged now as when you first said it
So you think that the Secretary General of the United Nations is deranged.

I see.
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#507 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:38 pm

I would also note that the Red Cross has stated it believes the casualty figures issued by the Health Ministry in Gaza are reliable.
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#508 Post by Octavious » Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:40 pm

The stream of lies grows ever stronger with you, doesn't it? It makes having a meaningful conversation damned near impossible
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#509 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Nov 07, 2023 12:06 am

Octavious wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:40 pm
The stream of lies grows ever stronger with you, doesn't it? It makes having a meaningful conversation damned near impossible
What are you rambling about?
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#510 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Nov 07, 2023 12:38 am

I can provide evidence of the UN Secretary General saying that Israel is turning Gaza into a children's graveyard.

I can provide evidence of the Red Cross reporting the Gaza health ministry's casualty figures as factual.

This is not a "stream of lies".
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#511 Post by CaptainFritz28 » Tue Nov 07, 2023 1:05 am

I know you won't see this, Jamie, but this is so egregious I must state it anyways:
Just because the UN's Secretary General said it doesn't make it true. Yes, if he gets his info from terrorist organizations, then he is deranged. Regardless, you fail to acknowledge that these deaths are not all from the Israelis. Many civilians have died from Gaza-fired missiles that misfired. Why? Because Hamas has no regard for Palestinians. Also, I must point out that these children would not be dead if Hamas did not put their military commanders under neighborhoods. It is not Israel's fault that Hamas purposefully puts civilians in harm's way.
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#512 Post by Esquire Bertissimmo » Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:38 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:08 pm
Before mentioning various elections...

Today UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres has said that Gaza is becoming "a graveyard for children", as health ministry figures report that over 10,000 people have now died in Gaza, over 4,000 of them children.

I said Israel planned to put the people of Gaza into mass graves and that is what is happening.
Hamas breaks a longstanding cease fire on Oct. 7, kills with maximal intent to promote a military reaction from Israel (beheading, kidnappings, celebrating with civilian dead, etc.), hides its military targets among civilians intentionally, and shows reckless disregard for civilian casualties on its own side in its offensive.

So Israel can no longer tolerate the death cult next door, which is explicitly committed to genociding Israelis and which actively seeks to create an opportunity for Israel to be attacked on all fronts in a war with Iran/Hezbollah that would certainly be genocidal against Israelis.

Hamas can't exist anymore in the eyes of many Israelis - go figure. Since they're a democracy and most of them feel this way, they'll persecute this war on Hamas. Hamas hasn't committed to respect any ceasefire and has said explicitly its goal is to repeat violence like Oct. 7 until the Jewish people leave or are all killed (note the goal isn't just statehood for Palestinians, but the total ejection of all Jews from the area).

So honestly, what should Israel do? War against Hamas = civilian casualties, in no small part because that's Hamas' preference. A ceasefire means allowing the Hamas, which has done the opposite of committing to respect such a ceasefire, to regroup. That would result in more dead IDF soldiers, maybe more atrocities against Israeli civilians, and no durable change in the situation.

Anyone can claim the Israelis aren't persecuting the assault in a way that causes minimal loss of civilian life. And the whole world absolutely should put pressure on Israel to minimize civilian casualties. I readily acknowledge that Israel has committed war crimes already. But there are going to be a LOT of civilian casualties no matter how this war is conducted.

Your claim that Israel's goal is secretly genocidal is so deeply wrongheaded. The simple fact of the matter is the Israel could kill every single Gazan tonight if that were its objective, yet they don't. Many of those murdered on Oct. 7 were young liberals who would have gladly voted in favour of a genuine two state solution. Israel's goal is very clearly to eliminate Hamas while losing as few IDF soldiers as possible.

I'm very very very curious what someone with your viewpoint thinks Israel should do?

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#513 Post by CaptainFritz28 » Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:45 am

How did you state in one message all that I was trying to say in my messages prior, and yet do it twice as well as myself?
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#514 Post by Esquire Bertissimmo » Tue Nov 07, 2023 5:10 am

CaptainFritz28 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:45 am
How did you state in one message all that I was trying to say in my messages prior, and yet do it twice as well as myself?
I write for a living, but I'm currently unemployed, so practice + too much time on my hands lol.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#515 Post by orathaic » Tue Nov 07, 2023 8:43 am

Great quote from Conservative Muslim and former British cabinet member on Israel:
https://youtu.be/ipigziMMg1k?si=MkEEpN0 ... b&t=43m56s

Referencing a 2019 discussion between Netanyahi and Israeli far right. (Skip to 43 minutes 56 seconds, if my time stamp isn't working)

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#516 Post by Esquire Bertissimmo » Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:53 pm

orathaic wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 8:43 am
Great quote from Conservative Muslim and former British cabinet member on Israel:
https://youtu.be/ipigziMMg1k?si=MkEEpN0AYldypxqb&t=43m56s

Referencing a 2019 discussion between Netanyahi and Israeli far right. (Skip to 43 minutes 56 seconds, if my time stamp isn't working)
In case my previous post sounds too pro-Israel, I want to be clear that I agree with the speaker's comments in this video. Israel has obviously not tried hard enough to secure a proper two-state solution - they're the more powerful party and they bear the burden of sustaining peace talks. Successive governments have allowed illegal settlements and crimes against Palestinians in occupied territories. Politically powerful elements of Israeli society are not interested in a two-state solution. Parts of Israeli society are genuinely hateful and uncaring towards Palestinians.

That said, I don't actually know how these facts should affect my view about what Israel should do right now. They just got 9/11ed, there are still live Israeli hostages in Gaza, Hamas and its backers very clearly care more about killing Jews than saving Palestinians. I am not willing to say that Israel deserves terror attacks against it because of its sordid history. Whether the entire Zionist project is fundamentally flawed is basically beside the point in 2023 - they exist, generations have flourished there, they have economic and military power, and nothing short of a genocide against them will make them leave.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#517 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:02 pm

Esquire Bertissimmo wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:53 pm

In case my previous post sounds too pro-Israel, I want to be clear that I agree with the speaker's comments in this video. Israel has obviously not tried hard enough to secure a proper two-state solution - they're the more powerful party and they bear the burden of sustaining peace talks. Successive governments have allowed illegal settlements and crimes against Palestinians in occupied territories. Politically powerful elements of Israeli society are not interested in a two-state solution. Parts of Israeli society are genuinely hateful and uncaring towards Palestinians.
This was going to be my answer to your question to me. Israel should not have done these things. Israel has empowered and encouraged Hamas by virtue of its constant undermining of the peace process and the undermining of the more moderate Palestinian leadership.

Not to mention Israel perpetuated the Nakba in 1948, an act of enormous theft, displacement, and murder - the catastrophic act which initiated the great suffering and sense of injustice felt by the Palestinians to this day.
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#518 Post by Esquire Bertissimmo » Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:23 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:02 pm
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:53 pm

In case my previous post sounds too pro-Israel, I want to be clear that I agree with the speaker's comments in this video. Israel has obviously not tried hard enough to secure a proper two-state solution - they're the more powerful party and they bear the burden of sustaining peace talks. Successive governments have allowed illegal settlements and crimes against Palestinians in occupied territories. Politically powerful elements of Israeli society are not interested in a two-state solution. Parts of Israeli society are genuinely hateful and uncaring towards Palestinians.
This was going to be my answer to your question to me. Israel should not have done these things. Israel has empowered and encouraged Hamas by virtue of its constant undermining of the peace process and the undermining of the more moderate Palestinian leadership.

Not to mention Israel perpetuated the Nakba in 1948, an act of enormous theft, displacement, and murder - the catastrophic act which initiated the great suffering and sense of injustice felt by the Palestinians to this day.
Okay, but I wonder if you could address my second point in that post: What does any of this matter right now?

Do Israeli citizens deserve to be terrorized until they've made amends to the Palestinians and, if so, what's the limit? If Israel withdrew from Gaza today, Hamas would immediately start preparing for Oct. 7 round two. If Israel laid down its arms, it would be invaded by Iran and its proxies in an eliminationist war. Maybe it is Israel's fault that there is no partner for peace (I personally think that is going too far), but it's just factually true right now that peace with Hamas is impossible.

And if the ethics of this are so clear, what's your stance on other supposed de-colonization movements? Would it be okay for my family to be killed in the name of decolonizing Canada? Certainly we could enrich an Indigenous family by giving them my house. Maybe justice demands that I return to Scotland, though its only part of my heritage and even then that was 5 generations ago. Is Canada absolved of these crimes because they happened further in the past, or because we pour a bit of money into Indigenous issues?

Why is the Jewish colony the only one that deserves to be undone violently?

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#519 Post by Esquire Bertissimmo » Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:47 pm

^ And if the history is relevant to how you feel about innocent Israeli civilian deaths today, does it matter that a lot of Israelis are descended from Jews who were violently driven out of nearby Arab countries + Iran? But for Israel, this group would be the equivalent of Palestinians, except instead of eking out a terrible existence in an untenable open air prison they would have just been executed.

And if the history matters, don't the Palestinians share some burden for the failure of the Clinton peace talks in which many international observers thought the offer was as good as it could reasonably be for the Palestinians? They walked away over right-to-return, which ain't never going to happen for obvious reasons.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#520 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:59 pm

Esquire Bertissimmo wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:23 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:02 pm
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:53 pm

In case my previous post sounds too pro-Israel, I want to be clear that I agree with the speaker's comments in this video. Israel has obviously not tried hard enough to secure a proper two-state solution - they're the more powerful party and they bear the burden of sustaining peace talks. Successive governments have allowed illegal settlements and crimes against Palestinians in occupied territories. Politically powerful elements of Israeli society are not interested in a two-state solution. Parts of Israeli society are genuinely hateful and uncaring towards Palestinians.
This was going to be my answer to your question to me. Israel should not have done these things. Israel has empowered and encouraged Hamas by virtue of its constant undermining of the peace process and the undermining of the more moderate Palestinian leadership.

Not to mention Israel perpetuated the Nakba in 1948, an act of enormous theft, displacement, and murder - the catastrophic act which initiated the great suffering and sense of injustice felt by the Palestinians to this day.
Okay, but I wonder if you could address my second point in that post: What does any of this matter right now?

Do Israeli citizens deserve to be terrorized until they've made amends to the Palestinians and, if so, what's the limit? If Israel withdrew from Gaza today, Hamas would immediately start preparing for Oct. 7 round two. If Israel laid down its arms, it would be invaded by Iran and its proxies in an eliminationist war. Maybe it is Israel's fault that there is no partner for peace (I personally think that is going too far), but it's just factually true right now that peace with Hamas is impossible.

And if the ethics of this are so clear, what's your stance on other supposed de-colonization movements? Would it be okay for my family to be killed in the name of decolonizing Canada? Certainly we could enrich an Indigenous family by giving them my house. Maybe justice demands that I return to Scotland, though its only part of my heritage and even then that was 5 generations ago. Is Canada absolved of these crimes because they happened further in the past, or because we pour a bit of money into Indigenous issues?

Why is the Jewish colony the only one that deserves to be undone violently?
I favour a two-state solution in Israel (something the current Israeli government does not). I do not favour, and have not advocated for, the removal of all non-Palestinians from the region.

Canada has a low population density and there is plenty of land for both indigenous people and more recent arrivals to Canada to live there. However it is certainly the case that from the 18th Century until the second half of the 20th Century, European Canadians and the Canadian government aggressively perpetuated shocking human rights violations, en-masse, against First Nations, and Inuit peoples who had been present well before serious colonisation took place. Some of these policies were explicitly racist and deeply bigoted, including the forced kidnapping of around 20,000 indigenous children, and the forced "Christianization" of many people and a deliberate attempt to erase their culture. Some scholars have described these policies, collectively, as an attempted genocide.

In the past 20 years Canada, unlike Israel, has begun to take meaningful strides to undo some of these wrongs. In 2008 the Canadian Government formally apologised for some of the above-mentioned acts, and put in place a Truth and Reconciliation commission. It is my understanding that around 2 Billion Canadian Dollars has been paid in compensation to indigenous families. I imagine your family's tax dollars contributed to this - and rightly so. This is not enough, and much more is needed, but it's a damn sight more than anything Israel has done.
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.

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