War, what is it good for?

[Jamiet99uk]

And for the record, I have not stated anything I believe to be a lie.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:10 pm
Israel's current strategy is to remove all people from Gaza and move them into mass graves. This is not beneficial to the people involved, it is genocide.

Explain how you came to the conclusion that this revolting statement is true

You're right that what Israel is doing is revolting.

During the present event they have killed several thousand people, the vast majority of them civilians and many of them children.

Israeli government ministers have told illegal Israeli settlers in the remaining Palestinian lands that they are "heroes" if they shoot dead any Palestinian civilians who shout at them or throw stones.

Israel has deliberately denied children access to water.

I can see what they are doing. Why can't you?

[Jamiet99uk]

I have not said anything about Jews.

You're not an idiot, Jamie. You know full well that public perception of the state of Israel has a direct impact on the treatment of Jewish people across the globe. And even if you somehow didn't know it before there has been plenty of evidence over the last couple of weeks to prove it beyond doubt to anyone who has been paying even a minimal amount of attention, and you have been paying events a lot of attention.

Obviously it is not reasonable to demand that people only write pro-Isreali propaganda for the sake of minimising risk to Jews elsewhere, but it should be equally obvious that writing lies that portrays Israelis as monsters has a direct and significant negative impact on all Jewish people, and as such is clear antisemitism.

The current Israeli government is an ultra-right fascist nationalist government which has repeatedly demonstrated it does not care about international law or, indeed, the rule of law in general, and which is actively promoting a policy of apartheid. They continue to steal land from Palestine and indiscriminately kill women and children.

Any reference I make to Israel is a specific reference to the Israeli state, not to individual Israeli citizens and absolutely not to "Jews" in any broad sense. I have consciously avoided using the word "Jew" at all, specifically because I am clear on this point, that the target of my condemnation is Israel.

Part of the reason why the global perception of "Jews" and "Israel" is so closely linked is because it is a key part of Israel's propaganda policy to create and reinforce that link, so that any criticism of Israel may be dismissed as anti-Semitism, and anyone who supports the Palestinians may be branded an anti-Semite.

This Israeli state propaganda has been quite successful in conflating "Jewish" and "Israeli" to mean one and the same in some people's eyes. It is this which is placing other Jewish people, who have no part in the current atrocities, in an uncomfortable situation right now.

Some non-Israeli Jews in the UK joined the pro-Palestinian demonstrations over the weekend. I commend them for doing so. Naturally they are attacked by the pro-Israel side for being self-hating-Jews, itself a very unpleasant trope.

Israeli citizens in Israel itself, who do not support what their fascist government is doing, need to stand up and put a different, more reasonable, government, in place - one which is committed to a two-state solution rather than the annihilation of the battered remnants of Palestine.

[Octavious]

And for the record, I have not stated anything I believe to be a lie.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:10 pm
Israel's current strategy is to remove all people from Gaza and move them into mass graves. This is not beneficial to the people involved, it is genocide.

Explain how you came to the conclusion that this revolting statement is true

You're right that what Israel is doing is revolting.

During the present event they have killed several thousand people, the vast majority of them civilians and many of them children.

Israeli government ministers have told illegal Israeli settlers in the remaining Palestinian lands that they are "heroes" if they shoot dead any Palestinian civilians who shout at them or throw stones.

Israel has deliberately denied children access to water.

I can see what they are doing. Why can't you?

Are you saying that you stand by your statement that Isreal's strategy is to move everyone from Gaza into mass graves in a genocide of the Gazan people, or do you admit this is a lie? It is not a difficult question to answer.

[Jamiet99uk]

I think the current Israeli government would be happy if all of the residents of Gaza were killed or completely removed from their lands. Hence they keep killing them in large numbers and illegally turning them off their land.

This amounts to attempted genocide and I will not retract the use of the word "genocide" in the context of Israel's campaign.

They have already created such a requirement for mass graves that some of the aid lorries waiting at the Egyptian border are filled with coffins and body bags. Just think about that.

[Jamiet99uk]

400 people in Palestine have been killed in the past 24 hours. Do you think the majority of those were Hamas fighters?

No of course you don't.

The mass murder of an oppressed and dispossessed people is taking place, live on television.

[Octavious]

I think the current Israeli government would be happy if all of the residents of Gaza were killed or completely removed from their lands.

There's a world of difference between murder and eviction. Why do you try and confuse the two? I think most Mexicans would be happy to visit the USA or emigrate there or kill all Americans. You see how this doesn't work as a statement?

Are there some people in the Israeli government who would like to see Gaza completely vacant? I imagine that might be true. I imagine there are a fair few Gazans who would like that too.

Does the current Israeli government want to kill all Gazans? Of course they bloody well don't. The suggestion that they do is deeply rooted in antisemitic hatred. Why are you so eager to see them as inhuman monsters?

[Jamiet99uk]

I have absolutely no hatred toward Jewish people.

I am not "eager", I am describing what I see. There are people in the current Israeli government who do not see Palestinians as humans. They see them as subhuman nuisances to be pushed out of the way at any cost. Their conduct displays this openly.

[orathaic]

The current Israeli government is capable of demonstrating what they want thrkugh the use of some of the most technically advanved weapons of war the world has ever seen.

That is enough evidence for what they want. And we will see what they will do now that the majority of the West has given them carte blanche to act however they feel appropriate.

As Jamie pointed out, the Israeli government's murder of innocent civilians is making things worse for jewish people wheerever they are. The only regret is that i could end up standig side-by-side with antisemites if i attend any protests... Not a good look. I would prefer to oppose fascism eveeywhere (including the state of Israel)

[Fluminator]

Israel/Palestine has so much misinfo right now I don't know what to believe anymore.

[orathaic]

Israel/Palestine has so much misinfo right now I don't know what to believe anymore.

What is there not to believe? Israel is dropping bombs, and this sometimes kills children.

Maybe one sides says 500 children per day, while the other focuses on the militants they have targeted (and probably aren't advertising how many children per day have died).

On the other hand, Hamas won an election in 2006 and haven't held one since. We declared a terrorist organization, and refused international recognition for their rule. They secretly smugglers weapons and rockets into Gaza before launching enough rockets to overwhelm (the most advanced air defence in the world) Israel protections. While storming and taking hostages and killing children.

There is no 'good' guy here. Only the one with more power and advanced weapons vs the one deliberately targeting children.

[Jamiet99uk]

The UN Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, has today accused Israel of "clear violations" of international humanitarian law.

In particular he said:

"Protecting civilians does not mean ordering more than one million people to evacuate to the south, where there is no shelter, no food, no water, no medicine and no fuel, and then continuing to bomb the south itself."

He was also critical of Hamas for using civilians as a "human shield". He also said that Hamas's attacks on Israel "did not happen in a vacuum".

[Octavious]

Israel/Palestine has so much misinfo right now I don't know what to believe anymore.

What is there not to believe? Israel is dropping bombs, and this sometimes kills children.

Maybe one sides says 500 children per day, while the other focuses on the militants they have targeted (and probably aren't advertising how many children per day have died).

On the other hand, Hamas won an election in 2006 and haven't held one since. We declared a terrorist organization, and refused international recognition for their rule. They secretly smugglers weapons and rockets into Gaza before launching enough rockets to overwhelm (the most advanced air defence in the world) Israel protections. While storming and taking hostages and killing children.

There is no 'good' guy here. Only the one with more power and advanced weapons vs the one deliberately targeting children.

Have to say I agree. There are a lot of arguments over ridiculous details, such as how many babies Hamas beheaded, and the number of children killed by Israeli bombing campaigns on any particular day. I have no idea why people are wasting effort on such things. Hamas and Isreal are spinning news as fast as they can, but the fundamental truths shine through clearly enough.

Hamas attacked Isreal in a brutal and bloody attack targeted at civilians and designed to generate as much rage and hatred as possible. They don't give a shit about Israeli civilians, nor about Palestinian civilians. They want a fight, and they want it on home turf, and they've acted to make this happen.

The Israeli government has no choice in what they do now. They've had plenty of choice in what they've done for the last decade, and that had been to continue building illegal settlements in order to scupper the 2 state solution, and to treat Hamas as a controlled caged beast which can be relied upon to fire off its supply of missiles every few years in a display of impotent rage. This, it turns out, has been as monumentally stupid as it sounds. But now they can no longer afford to treat Hamas as a controlled animal, and they cannot ignore such an outrage. They must enter Gaza and fight Hamas on their home territory. They must walk into every trap Hamas has been carefully setting over the last few years. They are shitting themselves because they are going to enter a world of pain, and they know it, and they have no choice.

This is why they have been bombing areas of the north so heavily. It is the only way to minimise the hideous number of casualties that they will soon endure. And they need to reduce those casualties because Isreal only has a limited number of quality troops and they are terrified that Iran and Hezbollah are poised to strike the moment Isreal gets bogged down in Gaza.

That is why the Yanks have sent two carrier groups to the area. That's why so many Western nations have been publicly promising unwavering support despite public opinion being sympathetic towards Palestinians. Because this is a trap, and Isreal has fallen smack bang into the middle of it, and there's a real danger it won't survive.

[Jamiet99uk]

The Israeli government .... [has] had plenty of choice in what they've done for the last decade, and that had been to continue building illegal settlements in order to scupper the 2 state solution, and to treat Hamas as a controlled caged beast which can be relied upon to fire off its supply of missiles every few years in a display of impotent rage. This, it turns out, has been as monumentally stupid as it sounds.

On this point it appears we are in agreement.

Israel's hard-line government has deliberately scuppered the peace process. In my view one of the catalysts for Hamas taking power in Gaza (in place of more moderate and reasonable Palestinian groups) has been the way, over decades, not just the last 10 years, Israel has again and again undermined those on the Palestinian side who wanted peace. Eventually the sheer frustration of a people dispossessed, robbed, shot at, oppressed, blockaded and caged in, caused many of them to lose faith in the peace process, which Israel has almost never taken seriously. Israel doesn't want a two state solution. It wants a one-state solution in which there is no "Palestine".

[orathaic]

The Israeli government has no choice in what they do now.

This is entirely not the case. Israel can decide how to respond. The government coalition is united, but doesn't have to walk into this trap. The public outcry may be massive, but you don't make peace with your friends. They have no reasonable partner in Hamas to sit down with, so they have to fund an alternative route, but killing innocent civilians makes recruitment by Hamas all the easier. This is not a long term solution.

Egypt doesn't want to take Gaza back, Syria is in no state to do anything, Lebanon and Hezbollah could be talked to at this point, but don't control Hamas.

Precision drone attacks using the newest FPV technology to strike individuals instead of blowing up entire buildings might be the better option. But Israel holds the technology advantage and can entirely choose how many civilian casualties they inflict.

You have to hold the side with power to a higher standard. And international pressure on Israel should be pushing for a peaceful solution.

The US should be doing something about Iran, whether that is going to look like the nuclear deal, or a more comprehensive agreement, something to bring them back into the international system. The revolution was in 1979, they can't just be the enemy for ever, (especially since their anger at the US was entirely justified). Currently their carrier groups are trying to deter war. Shoot down missiles and drone launched from Yemen, this is a good thing on a tactical level, but on the strategic level Iran needs to be talked to.

Internal change in Iran will not happen while the public still see the US as a threat. And Iran is the influence backing Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis in Yemen and various Syrian and Iraqi militias (among with selling drones to Russia). Bring them on board and negotiate peace deals in Yemen, and Syria, work with Iran (which basically was forced to happen in Iraq, where the US ended up empowering pro-Iranian militias). The hardliners in Iran will only have their power eroded when the US starts to offer a carrot instead of the stick.

Israel is entirely responsible for their own actions, but this is all happening in the context of a 20 year 'war on terror' and the longer term colonial projects of the US and Europeans in the Middle East.

[orathaic]

Hamas is a terrorist organization which has forcefully overtaken Gaza and is now invading its neighbors

Correction: Hamas was democraticly elected. They were not recognised as the legitimate rulers of Palestine by the international community (which has called them terrorists) the same community which refuses to acknowledge Israeli actions as state directed terrorism.

The official position of many in the West is the Israel has a right to defend itself. And it only stands to reason that Hamas has the same right to defend Palestinians.

But given that I (and I suspect Jamie) entirely disagree with the methods employed by the Israeli government in its "defence", it extend equally that we don't support the rather horrific methods which Hamas employed in their recent attacks. It is not surprising - given the power imbalances - that Hamas engages in attacks on softer targets (civilians) and this is compeltely unacceptable; but Israel indiscriminately kills civilians too, and just blames Hamas for 'using human shields' (because again, there is a huge power imbalance).

This is not a defence of Hamas, their terrorism is repulsive and should be bright to an end. The same applies to the IDF, and peace negotiations are the only way which it is possible to achieve both. But the current Israeli government has been pushing to make peace impossible by (among other things) pushing the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in the West Bank and in Jeresulam.

Is it a surprise to you that Hamas responds?

[Octavious]

Indeed, Hamas are essentially Nazis who, like the Nazis of Germany we're all familiar with, were democratically elected by a population filled with bitterness and hate. They then fought and won a small civil war before (again like the German Nazis) abolishing democracy as a fundamentally bad idea and dedicating their time to finding new and exciting ways of killing Jewish people. Due to this ideology and willingness to act on it they have long been considered a terrorist organisation by much of the civilised world.

The official position of many in the West is the Israel has a right to defend itself. And it only stands to reason that Hamas has the same right to defend Palestinians.

This is clearly some new definition of the phrase "stands to reason" that I'm not familiar with. It's a bit like saying an armed bank robber has the right to shoot at police if they try to arrest him.

At the moment peace negotiations are impossible. Hamas have demanded blood and Israel are responding, and peace will only be possible once the population demand it over further bloodshed. This is still far quite far off.

[Jamiet99uk]

What about the Palestinians in the West Bank who continue to have their territory stolen by invading Israelis?

Do they have the right to defend their lands?

[Octavious]

Why are you trying to conflate a hypothetical scenario of a resident of the West Bank defending their lands with the antisemitic terrorist atrocities carried out by the government of Gaza in a calculated effort to start a war?

[Jamiet99uk]

Why are you trying to conflate a hypothetical scenario of a resident of the West Bank defending their lands with the antisemitic terrorist atrocities carried out by the government of Gaza in a calculated effort to start a war?

It isn't hypothetical. Current members of Israel's cabinet have said it is "heroic" for Israeli settlers in the West Bank to shoot Palestinian civilians. Israel denies Palestinians the right, and the ability, to defend themselves.

[Octavious]

Not wishing to give the impression that I don't trust your word on this, but I don't trust your word on this. You have shown yourself all too eager to lie in order to stoke hatred against Isreal and Jews. But even if true, it hardly changes anything