More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

[Randomizer]

"I personally dislike how the term ‘Mass Shooting’ is defined and used as a fear invoking tactic to get people concerned.

I’d imagine if we dug deeper into these counts you’d see the following:
The majority of these mass shootings are gang violence.
The shooters should not legally have a gun already due to their criminal history.
The weapon was gained through illegal methods.
The weapon of choice was a handgun, not a rifle.
School shootings are bad, we all agree, but the AR-15 and assault rifles are not the leading killers when it comes to guns."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/21-mass-shoo ... 35225.html


A look at mass shootings similar to this topic of 10+ showed almost all were legal gun purchase.
Not gang violence.
Even when there was a mental health check like in Michigan, the shooter wasn't red flagged to prevent acquiring a gun.
Several were assault rifle style.

[worcej]

If you want to get a flavor of just how messed up things are in the USA, listen to this podcast of the This American Life radio show:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/670/be ... jabberwock.

The show discusses Alex Jones, a charlatan who has made millions of dollars propagating the fiction that the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting (20 children and 6 teachers murdered in Connecticut in 2012) never happened, that it was all staged, that the family members interviewed on TV were "shock actors," etc. The show also features one parent who is fighting back, in the face of death threats from Jones's followers.

Or check out this story from National Public Radio:
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/24/11010509 ... ngs-so-far.

It says that in 2022 alone, we have already had over 200 "mass shootings" (4 or more people shot or killed, not counting the shooter), and 27 school shootings with injuries or deaths. In 2021, we had 693 mass shootings.

I personally dislike how the term ‘Mass Shooting’ is defined and used as a fear invoking tactic to get people concerned.

I’d imagine if we dug deeper into these counts you’d see the following:

• The majority of these mass shootings are gang violence.
• The shooters should not legally have a gun already due to their criminal history.
• The weapon was gained through illegal methods.
• The weapon of choice was a handgun, not a rifle.

School shootings are bad, we all agree, but the AR-15 and assault rifles are not the leading killers when it comes to guns.

There were 43 shootings in the USA, involving 4+ casualties, in the month of February 2022 so I've taken a look and tried to categorise them:

Motive unclear / not reported: 14
Gang violence (confirmed or probable): 10
Domestic violence: 8
Drunken bar/nightclub fight: 5
Political protest / rally: 2
Crazed madman goes on rampage: 1
Some teenagers arguing about a Facebook post: 1
Business argument: 1
Argument in a bowling alley: 1
Attempted robbery: 1

A few quick take-aways:

1. Gang violence is not the majority but it is a relatively common source of the reported gun violence.

2. Domestic violence was the second most common category. This adds weight to the video that you posted earlier calling for a ban on gun ownership for anyone with a record of domestic violence.

3. The next highest category, apparently, was drunk people arguing in bars and then going for their guns. Mixing booze and firearms is clearly not a good idea.

4. A few of the shootings were, apparently, for really stupid, trivial shit.

Can I ask for source just to see if I can look at other months? Seems relatively quickly to turn out ‘mass murder’ statistics and if it’s a decent source then I’d like to refer to it more often than FBI’s

[worcej]

"I personally dislike how the term ‘Mass Shooting’ is defined and used as a fear invoking tactic to get people concerned.

I’d imagine if we dug deeper into these counts you’d see the following:
The majority of these mass shootings are gang violence.
The shooters should not legally have a gun already due to their criminal history.
The weapon was gained through illegal methods.
The weapon of choice was a handgun, not a rifle.
School shootings are bad, we all agree, but the AR-15 and assault rifles are not the leading killers when it comes to guns."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/21-mass-shoo ... 35225.html


A look at mass shootings similar to this topic of 10+ showed almost all were legal gun purchase.
Not gang violence.
Even when there was a mental health check like in Michigan, the shooter wasn't red flagged to prevent acquiring a gun.
Several were assault rifle style.

You suck at quoting…

Yes, if you narrow down your focus to 10+ being a definition of mass shooting, I have no argument against that frame of reference because that’s a tragic event where someone is definitely going out to just inflict harm.

That being said, and in no way to diminish the loss of life, these events are rare and an overwhelming minority of actual gun violence in the United States. We continue to focus on the ‘scary’ tool instead of the people using the tool and controlling that aspect.

[Jamiet99uk]

There were 43 shootings in the USA, involving 4+ casualties, in the month of February 2022 so I've taken a look and tried to categorise them:

Motive unclear / not reported: 14
Gang violence (confirmed or probable): 10
Domestic violence: 8
Drunken bar/nightclub fight: 5
Political protest / rally: 2
Crazed madman goes on rampage: 1
Some teenagers arguing about a Facebook post: 1
Business argument: 1
Argument in a bowling alley: 1
Attempted robbery: 1

A few quick take-aways:

1. Gang violence is not the majority but it is a relatively common source of the reported gun violence.

2. Domestic violence was the second most common category. This adds weight to the video that you posted earlier calling for a ban on gun ownership for anyone with a record of domestic violence.

3. The next highest category, apparently, was drunk people arguing in bars and then going for their guns. Mixing booze and firearms is clearly not a good idea.

4. A few of the shootings were, apparently, for really stupid, trivial shit.

Can I ask for source just to see if I can look at other months? Seems relatively quickly to turn out ‘mass murder’ statistics and if it’s a decent source then I’d like to refer to it more often than FBI’s

Sure!

The source is local news reports of the shootings, which are collated on Wikipedia, but in each case I did actually, wherever possible, access the news story itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... es_in_2022

[orathaic]

Of course there are some other good takes:

Why is the conversation always about GUNS and never MEN. Women can get guns as easily as men, but they aren't committing mass murders. Why don't we talk about men's inability to control their emotions?

Because we, as a society, continue to emphasize men need to be strong and cannot have feelings. We don’t emphasize counseling and instead push the image of ‘tough it out’.

Look how we react when men claim to be victims of DV or even raped. Most people’s first reaction is to laugh about it. We victim blame the shit out of men.

Yes, i mean, i would take a first aid approach first. You don't go straight to a consultant for a small cut, likewise, friends and social support are an important first level of mental health protection.

Unfortunately there is a toxic culture. Caring and offering emotional support is considered feminine or gay, and both are low status (misogyny and homophobic being encouraged by this form of toxic culture). There is a great post by a trans guy about how alienated and touch starved he felt after people started seeing him as male in public(here: https://skaldish.tumblr.com/post/680088 ... ely-sticky )

But there is a time and place where male touch is acceptable, within warlike/sporting teams. If you are already being ultra masculine it becomes ok to touch your male team mates. There is a clear connection with valourising the warrior, whether as actual soldiers or 'elite' athletes (performing ritualized violence within some set of safety rules to make it socially acceptable aka sports).

And that status assigned to warriors of course feeds back in to the gun violence discussion.

EDIT: all that is to say that changing a law or amending a constitution will not change the underlying culture on its own.

[Trigfea63]

The source is local news reports of the shootings, which are collated on Wikipedia ...

It looks like Wikipedia is getting its information from the Gun Violence Archive, a nonprofit organization:
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

[Jamiet99uk]

The source is local news reports of the shootings, which are collated on Wikipedia ...

It looks like Wikipedia is getting its information from the Gun Violence Archive, a nonprofit organization:
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

No, if you look at the specific event-by-event table, each one links to a local or national news report.

[Jamiet99uk]

To be honest, I'm still struggling to get my head around why a well-regulated militia would want to kill 19 elementary school students in the first place. It just doesn't make sense.

[worcej]

To be honest, I'm still struggling to get my head around why a well-regulated militia would want to kill 19 elementary school students in the first place. It just doesn't make sense.

They didn't - a mentally ill 18 year old did.

[Randomizer]

Mental illness wasn't medically proven prior and he's dead so no follow up exam. Mental illness is the latest Republican excuse for no need for more gun legislation since that is already barring gun ownership.

[Jamiet99uk]

To be honest, I'm still struggling to get my head around why a well-regulated militia would want to kill 19 elementary school students in the first place. It just doesn't make sense.

They didn't - a mentally ill 18 year old did.

But the purpose of the Second Amendment is so you can have a well-regulated militia.

So why did he have one?

[Jamiet99uk]

Only, it seems to me that the "right to bear arms" part is what gun lovers focus on, and the "well regulated" part just gets ignored.

Because by any reasonable standard, firearms are barely regulated in Texas at all.

You want to talk about mental illness? I'd suggest that anyone who supports Texas's gun laws is mentally ill.

[Jamiet99uk]

In particular, unless I am quoting this incorrectly, "long arms", which I understand means rifles, shotguns, etc, are not considered to be "firearms" in the state of Texas and may be freely carried by anyone, without any kind of permit.

That's no gun control at all and is absolute fucking madness.

[worcej]

Mental illness wasn't medically proven prior and he's dead so no follow up exam. Mental illness is the latest Republican excuse for no need for more gun legislation since that is already barring gun ownership.

So do you think it isn't mental illness that lead an 18 year old to go shoot up an elementary school?

Sure, the shooter wasn't clinically diagnosed, but don't try to normalize this behavior because it isn't normal to want to kill children, regardless of gun legislation.

And it isn't an excuse to bring up mental illness - it's fucking fact that we focus too much on the tool and not the person behind the tool. The Buffalo shooting is a great example of how stupid it is to regulate 'assault weapons' and think that these events are going to stop.

[worcej]

To be honest, I'm still struggling to get my head around why a well-regulated militia would want to kill 19 elementary school students in the first place. It just doesn't make sense.

They didn't - a mentally ill 18 year old did.

But the purpose of the Second Amendment is so you can have a well-regulated militia.

So why did he have one?

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

At least try to be factually correct when you're being daft

[worcej]

In particular, unless I am quoting this incorrectly, "long arms", which I understand means rifles, shotguns, etc, are not considered to be "firearms" in the state of Texas and may be freely carried by anyone, without any kind of permit.

That's no gun control at all and is absolute fucking madness.

Not going to lie, seeing someone with a long-arm, which is typically meant to represent a hunting rifle (bolt or typically 5-round clip), or a shotgun does not scare me in the slightest. Areas where hunting is prevalent, like Texas, you'll see these types of guns in the back of trucks all the time.

They also are almost never used in a 'mass shooting' due to inherent limitations of the respective firearm, thus why no politician grand stands about regulating them.

And while I'm at it - just because you think it's madness doesn't mean it is madness.

[worcej]

Only, it seems to me that the "right to bear arms" part is what gun lovers focus on, and the "well regulated" part just gets ignored.

Because by any reasonable standard, firearms are barely regulated in Texas at all.

You want to talk about mental illness? I'd suggest that anyone who supports Texas's gun laws is mentally ill.

Already addressed the first part.

In general, people outside of the USA seem to forget that the states are effectively mini-countries and establish their own set of laws. The Federal government has control over many aspects, but beyond what the constitution outlines, the states have their ability to manage themselves. This is why marijuana is legal to purchase and consume in various states while still being a Schedule I substance under the Controlled Substances Act, which by definition means that it has a high potential for abuse, no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States, and a lack of accepted safety for use under medical supervision according to the federal government.

And I guess I am mentally ill based off your opinion lol...

[Jamiet99uk]

They didn't - a mentally ill 18 year old did.

But the purpose of the Second Amendment is so you can have a well-regulated militia.

So why did he have one?

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

At least try to be factually correct when you're being daft

With respect, I'm not going to read a 157 page court opinion document tonight.

[Jamiet99uk]

In particular, unless I am quoting this incorrectly, "long arms", which I understand means rifles, shotguns, etc, are not considered to be "firearms" in the state of Texas and may be freely carried by anyone, without any kind of permit.

That's no gun control at all and is absolute fucking madness.

Not going to lie, seeing someone with a long-arm, which is typically meant to represent a hunting rifle (bolt or typically 5-round clip), or a shotgun does not scare me in the slightest. Areas where hunting is prevalent, like Texas, you'll see these types of guns in the back of trucks all the time.

They also are almost never used in a 'mass shooting' due to inherent limitations of the respective firearm, thus why no politician grand stands about regulating them.

And while I'm at it - just because you think it's madness doesn't mean it is madness.

I'm sure if you had a group of children trapped in a classroom, and a shotgun, you could kill several of them.

[Jamiet99uk]

Only, it seems to me that the "right to bear arms" part is what gun lovers focus on, and the "well regulated" part just gets ignored.

Because by any reasonable standard, firearms are barely regulated in Texas at all.

You want to talk about mental illness? I'd suggest that anyone who supports Texas's gun laws is mentally ill.

Already addressed the first part.

In general, people outside of the USA seem to forget that the states are effectively mini-countries and establish their own set of laws. The Federal government has control over many aspects, but beyond what the constitution outlines, the states have their ability to manage themselves. This is why marijuana is legal to purchase and consume in various states while still being a Schedule I substance under the Controlled Substances Act, which by definition means that it has a high potential for abuse, no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States, and a lack of accepted safety for use under medical supervision according to the federal government.

And I guess I am mentally ill based off your opinion lol...

I thought you didn't support Texas style gun laws?

Earlier in this thread you argued for various restrictions that would represent considerably more regulation than currently exists in Texas, such as your proposal to ban perpetrators of domestic violence from owning guns.