WHO Promotes Quackery

[Jamiet99uk]

Those who do not trust or believe in the medical system need to be included rather than pushed further away, you are not wrong that this is tragic, but you are wrong about how to help.

I strongly disagree. Their trust in the medical system is, in part, undermined by the promotion of fraudulent pseudoscientific therapies such as "homeopathy". Banning homeopathy will help protect gullible people, such as those mentioned in the news stories I cited, from being swindled out of their money by criminals, and having their loved ones die needless deaths.

[orathaic]

Those who do not trust or believe in the medical system need to be included rather than pushed further away, you are not wrong that this is tragic, but you are wrong about how to help.

I strongly disagree. Their trust in the medical system is, in part, undermined by the promotion of fraudulent pseudoscientific therapies such as "homeopathy". Banning homeopathy will help protect gullible people, such as those mentioned in the news stories I cited, from being swindled out of their money by criminals, and having their loved ones die needless deaths.

Yeah, cause criminalisation and prohibition has never done more harm!

At least in this i would have expected more from you.

Also, i didn't say we should promote homeopathy. Banning them from advertising would be pretty good imo, possibly even stronger regulations. But also requiring them to meet certain stringent health and safety standards to make sure they tell people their services should only be used alongside (complimentary) regular health services not instead of (alternative).

There is more than one option. And 'criminals' is what you would make them, rather than what they are (currently), though if you believe they are currently committing fraud, then you donttneed to ban them.

[Octavious]

But also requiring them to meet certain stringent health and safety standards

Health and safety standards? It's small quantities of water. There's a greater risk to health from getting a paper cut from a health and safety leaflet. The one silver lining of medicine that doesn't actually do anything is that it doesn't actually do anything.

The standard required of them should simply be a proven medical benefit beyond placebo. This is a standard they will all fail.

[orathaic]

But also requiring them to meet certain stringent health and safety standards

Health and safety standards? It's small quantities of water. There's a greater risk to health from getting a paper cut from a health and safety leaflet. The one silver lining of medicine that doesn't actually do anything is that it doesn't actually do anything.

The standard required of them should simply be a proven medical benefit beyond placebo. This is a standard they will all fail.

Depends on how the placebo is administered and how cared for the patient feels.

[Octavious]

A common trait amongst fraudsters and conmen of all stripes is that they are good communicators. How good their victim is feeling whilst they are in the process of being conned strikes me as an extremely poor metric by which to assess any positive impact

[Jamiet99uk]

Those who do not trust or believe in the medical system need to be included rather than pushed further away, you are not wrong that this is tragic, but you are wrong about how to help.

I strongly disagree. Their trust in the medical system is, in part, undermined by the promotion of fraudulent pseudoscientific therapies such as "homeopathy". Banning homeopathy will help protect gullible people, such as those mentioned in the news stories I cited, from being swindled out of their money by criminals, and having their loved ones die needless deaths.

Yeah, cause criminalisation and prohibition has never done more harm!

At least in this i would have expected more from you.

Can you explain how banning homeopathy would cause "more harm" than the demonstrable harms already being done, for which I have provided ample evidence?

[orathaic]

The issue is with people choosing what medical care they want.

You can't force them to go to doctors, and with regulation it is possible to hold homeopathers (who some people trust) to account for not recommending those who need it go to a doctor.

The fact is, you can either encourage the more ethically minded to improve the situation, or try banning them, and leave a vacuum for the worst of humanity to take advantage of people.

Include education on alternative and complimentary medicine in schools, and ban advertising, while regulating the practise and requiring practicioners to liase with real medical professionals when they customers need it.

[Octavious]

A problem with your proposal is this.

Practicioners of homeopathy must logically fall into one of the following two categories.

1/ They are aware homeopathy is bollocks and they are simply con artists preying on the sick and desperate, in which case they are already the worst of humanity

2/ They actually believe homeopathy works, in which case they are deluded fantasists and singularly unqualified to determine whether or not real medical professionals are required.

Whichever of these happens to be true, your proposal is unworkable

[Jamiet99uk]

I was going to say much the same thing.

Homeopathy is not "medical care" any more than retrophrenology is, and the crooks and weirdos who offer it as treatment should be forcibly prevented from doing so.

[orathaic]

Unfortunately neither of those issues really helps address the needs of people who would trust homeopathy over medical science.

I would have little issue with the first group being ibvestigated for fraud, which is already a crime and thus we should need no special bán on homeopathy to find these con artist.

The second group actually believes they are helping people, and thus should he much more open to doing something which is inline with that goal. And thus while they may not be best placed to offer medical care, you can insist that they make the precaution of asking patients to see a doctor aswell because if something goes wrong with the care and they failed in that duty, they may well end up on manslaughter charges (as they should).

But the more important step to reaching people who currently trust 'alternative medicine' more than actual, you know, medicine, is to reach out and talk to them. Medicine tends to be pretty clinical, sterile and i suspect many think it is unable to do anything (like cure diabetes or prevent cancer) despite making claims that it is the only show in town (and looking down on anyone who seeks an alternative).

This is a problem, whether homeopathy exists of not, which scammers and con artists are only happy to address. Tackle the underlying problem, don't just ban the current fad - only to leave a new con artist to come up with a fake Crystal healing, quantum magnets plan, where the sell courses on teaching others (the true believers) how to magically heal the sick.

Then you have to ban that practice aswell, and someone will just repeat the process. While ignoring the underlying issue (which i am attempting to describe in a developed western nation, not a nation with a strong traditional medicine practice).

[Octavious]

How exactly do you intend to tell the two groups apart?

[orathaic]

How do you intend to ensure everyone has access to healthcare?

I mean, look at what the WHO actually says they are doing, and why they engage with traditional and complimentary practices.

Also, how do you tell well intentioned doctors and other medical practitioners apart from those who took the jobs to gain access to vulnerable patients? I am sure I could find equivalent quotes of doctrs who killed their own patients...

[Octavious]

Also, how do you tell well intentioned doctors and other medical practitioners apart from those who took the jobs to gain access to vulnerable patients? I am sure I could find equivalent quotes of doctrs who killed their own patients...

Criminals are arrested when they are discovered to be criminals via their actions. The difference between the actions of non-criminal doctors and the handful of criminal doctors are the crimes. The difference between the actions of con artist homeopathy practicioners and deluded fantasist homeopathy practicioners is zero.

How do you intend to ensure everyone has access to healthcare?

In foreign nations? I don't. Dictating what happens in foreign nations is imperialism. But what the people of those nations can do is vote for people who support access to properly funded healthcare, and it's easier to properly fund healthcare if money isn't being wasted on quackery. And what the WHO can do is show support by promoting evidence based effective healthcare and warning people away from quackery and superstitious nonsense.

[orathaic]

How do you intend to ensure everyone has access to healthcare?

In foreign nations? I don't. Dictating what happens in foreign nations is imperialism. But what the people of those nations can do is vote for people who support access to properly funded healthcare, and it's easier to properly fund healthcare if money isn't being wasted on quackery. And what the WHO can do is show support by promoting evidence based effective healthcare and warning people away from quackery and superstitious nonsense.

Funny how you can be so against Imperialism, but your Paternalism shines through in this thread so brightly...

[Octavious]

Paternalism? Ora, have you switched political ideologies when no one's been paying attention and now support no holds barred completely unregulated capitalism where anyone looking to make a quick buck can make any claims they like? What else are you defining as paternalistic these days? The emergency services? Speed limits? Law in general?

[Jamiet99uk]

Paternalism? Ora, have you switched political ideologies when no one's been paying attention and now support no holds barred completely unregulated capitalism where anyone looking to make a quick buck can make any claims they like? What else are you defining as paternalistic these days? The emergency services? Speed limits? Law in general?

Imposing speed limits doesn't address the needs of people who are determined to drive at insanely high speeds. You need to reach out to those people and understand their traditional approaches to high-speed driving, even if this doesn't align with your ideas of modern road safety.

[orathaic]

Paternalism? Ora, have you switched political ideologies when no one's been paying attention and now support no holds barred completely unregulated capitalism where anyone looking to make a quick buck can make any claims they like? What else are you defining as paternalistic these days? The emergency services? Speed limits? Law in general?

Imposing speed limits doesn't address the needs of people who are determined to drive at insanely high speeds. You need to reach out to those people and understand their traditional approaches to high-speed driving, even if this doesn't align with your ideas of modern road safety.

Pretty poor strawman.

Health care is a basic need, essentially to all.

High speed driving is not.

[Octavious]

True, a better analogy from the field of transportation would be people selling a plastic Jesus as a safety device to those who are wary of seat belts, airbags, and brakes. And you would no doubt advise that only genuine people who truly believe in the accident prevention powers of the plastic Jesus should be allowed to sell them as safety features, because otherwise you will create a vacuum that could be filled by ceramic Satan salesmen of dubious character. And no doubt these genuine believers in the powers of plastic Jesus could be trusted to recommend a mechanic to fit brakes if they think it might be necessary.

[Jamiet99uk]

Paternalism? Ora, have you switched political ideologies when no one's been paying attention and now support no holds barred completely unregulated capitalism where anyone looking to make a quick buck can make any claims they like? What else are you defining as paternalistic these days? The emergency services? Speed limits? Law in general?

Imposing speed limits doesn't address the needs of people who are determined to drive at insanely high speeds. You need to reach out to those people and understand their traditional approaches to high-speed driving, even if this doesn't align with your ideas of modern road safety.

Pretty poor strawman.

Health care is a basic need, essential to all.

High speed driving is not.

Homeopathy is not healthcare.

[Jamiet99uk]

True, a better analogy from the field of transportation would be people selling a plastic Jesus as a safety device to those who are wary of seat belts, airbags, and brakes. And you would no doubt advise that only genuine people who truly believe in the accident prevention powers of the plastic Jesus should be allowed to sell them as safety features, because otherwise you will create a vacuum that could be filled by ceramic Satan salesmen of dubious character. And no doubt these genuine believers in the powers of plastic Jesus could be trusted to recommend a mechanic to fit brakes if they think it might be necessary.

Wait, wait, wait, just a moment.

Are you trying to tell me the ceramic Satan I keep on my dashboard is not going to help me in the event of an accident??

I paid 50 Dogecoins for that thing!