Celebration of America

[Jamiet99uk]

I don't disagree, but at the same time, I was responding to ND proclaiming that the USA is holier than thou.

The reason so many migrants are fleeing Libya is because NATO destroyed Libya's civil infrastructure and turned a slowly improving second world country into hell on earth.

The UK may be leaving the EU. I have not seen you clamouring for us to leave NATO, Octavious.

[Stressedlines]

Jamie. That's horeceap. Most of the migrants leaving there are from sub-saharan Africa. Ever seen a.pic of the boats? They ain't Libyans

[Jamiet99uk]

Jamie. That's horeceap. Most of the migrants leaving there are from sub-saharan Africa. Ever seen a.pic of the boats? They ain't Libyans

They are mostly not Libyans, that's true. But the fact that Libya is now an anarchic hellhole with virtually no organised government, which allows criminal gangs to use Libya as a place where they can hold desperate central African migrants, torture them, rape them, use them as slave labour, extort money from them, before packing them onto rickety boats, is a direct consequence of NATO destroying Libya's government and civil infrastructure.

NATO's imperialist intervention took place in 2011 and a civil war (in several stages) is still ongoing. Prior to this, Libya had an organised government, civil infrastructure and a functioning civil society, and living standards were slowly but steadily improving. Afterwards it was left with vast destruction of civil infrastructure, its civil institutions wrecked, and with ongoing brutal fighting between the various factions which emerged.

The significant flow of migrants via Libya started seriously in 2013-14. It was not a problem prior to 2011 when Libya had an organised state apparatus.

This is NATO's fault. It is Britain's fault. It is France's fault. It is the USA's fault. It is Canada's fault. It is a fucking disgrace.

Imperialist, murderous western interventions must end. They achieve mass murder. They cause enormous suffering. They waste billions of dollars of public money. They do not bring about peace or democracy. Continuing such foreign policy at this point is evil. It is wrong. It is vile.

[Stressedlines]

Again. That wasnt the point why are central Africans leaving anyways? Is Europe the answer? Europe has it's own issues and they are gonna get worse before they get better. Transferring literally millions of immigrants from there to there is not helping.

I'm very much a military isolationist in many ways. Im.a combat vet and have no love at all for us military intervention but Obama and Hillary tore up Syria and Libya and Europe went along with them helping

You guys own that mess as much as anyone

[Stressedlines]

And gadaffi warned the world ot would happen

[Jamiet99uk]

I'm very much a military isolationist in many ways. Im.a combat vet and have no love at all for us military intervention but Obama and Hillary tore up Syria and Libya and Europe went along with them helping

You guys own that mess as much as anyone.

I absolutely agree. David Cameron, the UK's feckless idiot of a Prime Minister at the time, was gleeful about bombing Libya. He has a great deal of blood on his soft, pudgy hands.

[Jamiet99uk]

Again. That wasnt the point why are central Africans leaving anyways? Is Europe the answer? Europe has it's own issues and they are gonna get worse before they get better. Transferring literally millions of immigrants from there to there is not helping.

Many of the central Africans in question are the victims of criminal trafficking gangs who make false promises of a better life in Europe, and then extort money from the migrants, rape them, force them into slavery, kill many, and pack the rest onto the boats (or now, in some cases, simply shove them towards the camps).

It's an absolutely horrible situation.

[Fluminator]

Really, I don't know much about these "concentration camps" at the border. I hope they're not uprooting people from their homes and mass murdering and enslaving people against their will like the Germany concentration camps did.

I wonder if Holocaust survivors would view it as equivalent? Without knowing anything, I really hope it's not just a term being used lightly because if it is, it will really depower what true concentration camps were like.

But all these outrage events are so hypocritical and manipulative. There are so many awful terrible things to be angry about by literally every country and media/politicians will pick an issue for the people to be outraged only when it fits their narrative.

[Stressedlines]

I highly doubt they are as bad as everyone the left thinks they are or as nice as the right says. However I doubt they are being sold into slavery and raped on an industrial scale

[Octavious]

I wonder if Holocaust survivors would view it as equivalent? Without knowing anything, I really hope it's not just a term being used lightly because if it is, it will really depower what true concentration camps were like.

It's an interesting question, Fluminator. I'm also curious as to whether the opinion of holocaust survivors has changed as their demographics have changed.

I've noticed it a lot with WWII veterans. Because of human lifespans being what they are, pretty much every war veteran left were very young at the time of fighting and held very junior ranks. They also tend to be people who were called up late into the war, did their bit, and then went straight back to civilian life. They have remarkably different views to the world war 2 veterans of my childhood, who included far higher concentration of military career men, far more people who served as mature adults, and far more people who held senior posts. Your holocaust survivor of today. I imagine that most will have been children at the time, which must lead to a different perspective

[Octavious]

I don't disagree, but at the same time, I was responding to ND proclaiming that the USA is holier than thou.

The reason so many migrants are fleeing Libya is because NATO destroyed Libya's civil infrastructure and turned a slowly improving second world country into hell on earth.

The UK may be leaving the EU. I have not seen you clamouring for us to leave NATO, Octavious.

I'm not clamouring to leave either, Jamie. Indeed, we're unlikely to be able to fix the mess from outside the EU.

[Jamiet99uk]

It's funny people think concentration camps were invented by the Nazis.

They were invented by the British during the Boer War.

[Octavious]

It's funny people think concentration camps were invented by the Nazis.

They were invented by the British during the Boer War.

That's one of those popular myths. Concentration camps were indeed used in the Boer War, but they had been used before then. But regardless of that, since the Nazis the definition has changed somewhat. Referring back to previous camps isn't particularly useful.

[Stressedlines]

Even the earlier version of the German camp's were not exactly the same as the ens results

[Jamiet99uk]

It's funny people think concentration camps were invented by the Nazis.

They were invented by the British during the Boer War.

That's one of those popular myths. Concentration camps were indeed used in the Boer War, but they had been used before then. But regardless of that, since the Nazis the definition has changed somewhat. Referring back to previous camps isn't particularly useful.

No, you're right.

What is significant is that the United States of Americuh, today, right now, is operating camps where the children of migrants are kept in cages and denied adequate healthcare or nutrition. This is documented fact, it has been described in Congress. Whether these camps are like Nazi camps is a red herring. What matters is that they are barbaric, inhumane, evil.

[Stressedlines]

other than the 2014 accounts, which are highly misleading, you have any other 'facts' that say they are in cages

MSNBC, which was in there since 2014 reported it was not cages, but fenced in areas that separated them into pod live areas. That's not a cage, or dog kennels as one person described it.

It is a detention facility Its not Disney

Now, I don't know how long they are being held, I think law requires they be released to family members or something after X amount of time

[Stressedlines]

Can someone show me the pictures of kids in cages?

both sides have this shitty way of lying and embellishing I have a feeling I know which picture it is that people are using, cuz Ihave demolished that source enough times it will be easy

[Jamiet99uk]

It's tricky because the US Government strictly controls access to the camps and won't allow photos to be taken, but look at these for starters:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/ ... t-children

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics ... newday.cnn

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... g-facility

[Randomizer]

CBS has a copy of the official DHS inspector general report with photographs of a facility. They are in violation of fire safety laws and court orders on how long people and especially minors can be held there in Texas. This is not the Congressional members' report or some anti- Trump fringe group.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dhs-inspec ... n-centers/

Showed bare large rooms divided by chain link fencing into smaller areas. Detainees are given emergency aluminum blankets for bedding and minimal other furniture.

[Stressedlines]

that's not children in cages

That being said, I am 100% sure they are over-crowded . They are abusing the system, and not obeying international law (requiring themto stop at the FIRST safe country)

We cant house them all, and they come here knowing good and well what they are doing They are organized by organizations here, with full knowledge of what they are going to do

The left plays politics with these people, organizes and funds their movement here, then throws it at the Governments feet saying "you did this".

So, over-crowding is gonnahappen, as the system wasn't desgined to have that many damn people flowing over the border In may alone, 132K were caught. wtf. and now they are finding a good portion are not even from this Hemisphere

Come on man. The problem isn't the facility, the problem is the damn border