Is Elon Musk an anti-semite?

[Jamiet99uk]

Elon Musk has voiced his support for the AfD, an openly ultranationalist, ethno-nationalist and racial nationalist political party in Germany, whose members have expressed sympathy with the Waffen SS and are often accused of holocaust denial.

Is Elon Musk an anti-semite now?

[Fluminator]

Source? I'm a bit behind on German politics

[flash2015]

Source? I'm a bit behind on German politics

It is all based on this tweet where he says:

"Only the AfD can save Germany"

https://x.com/SeibtNaomi/status/1869871557557768385

If you watch the associated video at least, there is nothing there about "ultra nationalism". It is more about concerns that the CDU will have to make a pact with the Greens if they don't work with the AfD...and all the problems the Green policies allegedly cause/have caused.

[Octavious]

If the bar for being an antisemite is to be lowered to showing support for a party who has members that have been known to take a anti Jewish stance, that would encompass the majority of the population of Europe.

[Jamiet99uk]

If the bar for being an antisemite is to be lowered to showing support for a party who has members that have been known to take a anti Jewish stance, that would encompass the majority of the population of Europe.

The AfD has been characterised as a Völkisch nationalist party, with direct links to PEGIDA. It is a white nationalist, fascist, anti-semitic party.

[kingofthepirates]

If the bar for being an antisemite is to be lowered to showing support for a party who has members that have been known to take a anti Jewish stance, that would encompass the majority of the population of Europe.

The AfD has been characterised as a Völkisch nationalist party, with direct links to PEGIDA. It is a white nationalist, fascist, anti-semitic party.

Is it like... not possible to show support for some policies of a party and not ALL of them??
Like I support the end of affirmative action (supporting a republican policy), but I'm staunchly against restricting abortion (against a republican policy). Can't Elon do the same? He doesn't like the green party's policies, so supports some of the AfD's. Doesn't mean he necessarily supports the antisemitic/facist/white nationalist aspects. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if he does but just this information is insufficient, we can't jump to conclusions just yet.

[Jamiet99uk]

If the bar for being an antisemite is to be lowered to showing support for a party who has members that have been known to take a anti Jewish stance, that would encompass the majority of the population of Europe.

The AfD has been characterised as a Völkisch nationalist party, with direct links to PEGIDA. It is a white nationalist, fascist, anti-semitic party.

Is it like... not possible to show support for some policies of a party and not ALL of them??
Like I support the end of affirmative action (supporting a republican policy), but I'm staunchly against restricting abortion (against a republican policy). Can't Elon do the same? He doesn't like the green party's policies, so supports some of the AfD's. Doesn't mean he necessarily supports the antisemitic/facist/white nationalist aspects. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if he does but just this information is insufficient, we can't jump to conclusions just yet.

He shouldn't declare support for them at all if he isn't wiling to align with fascists and white nationalists.

The Nazi party supported organic farming. If I sent out a Tweet saying "only the Nazis can save Germany" and then later clarify "oh, I only meant I agreed with their policies about organic farm produce", how much credibility would that message have?

[flash2015]

The AfD has been characterised as a Völkisch nationalist party, with direct links to PEGIDA. It is a white nationalist, fascist, anti-semitic party.

Is it like... not possible to show support for some policies of a party and not ALL of them??
Like I support the end of affirmative action (supporting a republican policy), but I'm staunchly against restricting abortion (against a republican policy). Can't Elon do the same? He doesn't like the green party's policies, so supports some of the AfD's. Doesn't mean he necessarily supports the antisemitic/facist/white nationalist aspects. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if he does but just this information is insufficient, we can't jump to conclusions just yet.

He shouldn't declare support for them at all if he isn't wiling to align with fascists and white nationalists.

The Nazi party supported organic farming. If I sent out a Tweet saying "only the Nazis can save Germany" and then later clarify "oh, I only meant I agreed with their policies about organic farm produce", how much credibility would that m
While essage have?

While I agree with this in principle, in recent years the left has wildly overused this sort of argument against anyone that even slightly agrees with their policies. There is always a way to demonize anyone that disagrees. This has become a lazy way of avoiding actual policy discussion or dealing with actual constituent dissatisfaction. The argument has been so overdone that naby people now are tuning it out.

This may be crazy talk...but bear with me here. Perhaps the political parties in Germany can listen a little to their constituent concerns for a second? The rise of parties like AfD (and Trump in the US) are a symptom, not a cause. Remove their reason for existing and they will go away.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

The kneejerk response of "the left call everyone's Nazis" isn't really appropriate in this case. The AfD aren't just anti-immigrant or anti-woke— senior members of the party are honest to god Nazi sympathizers. They say Nazi slogans and call dead Nazis heros. Some AfD members endorsed a policy whereby even naturalized German citizens would be deported if they failed an assimilation test.

Every furthest-right party in every democracy has this problem where they attract legitimate neo Nazis and outright bigots. But that's not an excuse for letting this vile faction dictate your policy and fill your rank and file. Conservative parties in other democracies have found a way to keep legitimate Nazis marginalized in a way the AfD has not.

If there are parts of AfDs policies that are popular among Germans (e.g., a harder line on immigration) then other parties should poach these ideas, or another non-Nazi right wing party should be formed. It's not good enough to say "I support the neo Nazi party for its non-Nazi related policies, so I'm not a bad guy" — there are other options to get these policies on the agenda.

Publicly supporting the AfD in its current form is outrageous and hard to defend.

[flash2015]

The kneejerk response of "the left call everyone's Nazis" isn't really appropriate in this case. The AfD aren't just anti-immigrant or anti-woke— senior members of the party are honest to god Nazi sympathizers. They say Nazi slogans and call dead Nazis heros. Some AfD members endorsed a policy whereby even naturalized German citizens would be deported if they failed an assimilation test.

Every furthest-right party in every democracy has this problem where they attract legitimate neo Nazis and outright bigots. But that's not an excuse for letting this vile faction dictate your policy and fill your rank and file. Conservative parties in other democracies have found a way to keep legitimate Nazis marginalized in a way the AfD has not.

If there are parts of AfDs policies that are popular among Germans (e.g., a harder line on immigration) then other parties should poach these ideas, or another non-Nazi right wing party should be formed. It's not good enough to say "I support the neo Nazi party for its non-Nazi related policies, so I'm not a bad guy" — there are other options to get these policies on the agenda.

Publicly supporting the AfD in its current form is outrageous and hard to defend.

There is no "kneejerk" reaction here. Throwing out labels is not a substitute for actual policy discussion. These labels have been so overused and abused in the past few years that they have lost the power that they once may have had.

AfD is not some tiny group which is getting 1% of the vote. In recent elections in Thuringia they won 32.8% of the vote and in Saxony they won 30.6% of the vote. We are well past the point where we can call anyone that supports them a Nazi and call it a day. Keeping on following the same strategy is not going to change the trajectory of this. We actually need to give people a reason to not vote for AfD and groups like them.

I agree with you that it would help that other right leaning parties poach their policies. If I remember correctly John Howard did this successfully in Australia in the 2000s ("stop the boats") to stifle the growth of more far right parties in Australia.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

There is no "kneejerk" reaction here. Throwing out labels is not a substitute for actual policy discussion. These labels have been so overused and abused in the past few years that they have lost the power that they once may have had.

You shouldn't let some leftists' overuse of "fascist" and "nazi" make you confused about the moral status of legitimate out-loud Nazi sympathizers

AfD is not some tiny group which is getting 1% of the vote. In recent elections in Thuringia they won 32.8% of the vote and in Saxony they won 30.6% of the vote. We are well past the point where we can call anyone that supports them a Nazi and call it a day. Keeping on following the same strategy is not going to change the trajectory of this. We actually need to give people a reason to not vote for AfD and groups like them.

I've never really understood the argument that if lots of people vote for something then it must be acceptable. The actual Nazi party got about a third of the vote in 1932. If there were a totally unabashed "Neo Nazis for Germany" party today it might get a non-trivial share of the vote.

I think it's useful to make folks who support a party with an unbelievable record of Nazi sympathy uncomfortable about their position. If all that normie AfD supporters really want is immigration reform then they should find themselves among those demanding the AfD distance itself from WW2 revisionism, Nazi sympathy, etc.

[flash2015]

There is no "kneejerk" reaction here. Throwing out labels is not a substitute for actual policy discussion. These labels have been so overused and abused in the past few years that they have lost the power that they once may have had.

You shouldn't let some leftists' overuse of "fascist" and "nazi" make you confused about the moral status of legitimate out-loud Nazi sympathizers

I am not sure how you think I am confused about anything here. If you think I am confused, you have completely misunderstood my argument.

AfD is not some tiny group which is getting 1% of the vote. In recent elections in Thuringia they won 32.8% of the vote and in Saxony they won 30.6% of the vote. We are well past the point where we can call anyone that supports them a Nazi and call it a day. Keeping on following the same strategy is not going to change the trajectory of this. We actually need to give people a reason to not vote for AfD and groups like them.

I've never really understood the argument that if lots of people vote for it must be acceptable. The actual Nazi party got about a third of the vote in 1932. If there were a totally unabashed "Neo Nazis for Germany" party today it might get a non-trivial share of the vote.

I think it's useful to make folks who support a party with an unbelievable record of Nazi sympathy uncomfortable about their position. If all that normie AfD supporters really want is immigration reform then they should find themselves among those demanding the AfD distance itself from WW2 revisionism, Nazi sympathy, etc.

I am not saying it is acceptable. I am saying it can't be all lazily labelled and dismissed. Parties like AfD are obviously feeling a political need which the other parties are not fulfilling.

I have seen no evidence that the "shame" strategy works. If anything, especially in the internet age, it is counterproductive. All you are doing is cutting off any chance of influencing these people and giving more power to the people that will not try to shame them.

In the US, the Democrats and their surrogates have been all in on the shame strategy. In the 2024 election, this failed spectacularly.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

If shame doesn't work, what are you actually proposing then?

The status quo - a third of people voting for a hugely problematic nazi sympathizing party - is a terrible outcome.

Yes, other right-ish parties need to take on some of the policy that make AfD popular. But how are they going to do that if no one is out there criticizing the AfD or making the point that it's Nazi sympathies are beyond the pale?

AfD supporters who aren't themselves Nazi sympathizers should be confronted with the reality of who they actually support and what sort of leaders they'd elect for their country. This type of shame (i.e., conveying the reality of the situation) should help, not hurt, the prospect of non-Nazi sympathizing right wing parties.

[flash2015]

If shame doesn't work, what are you actually proposing then?

Actually listening to people and figuring out why they are so disaffected that they believe AfD is the answer.

The status quo - a third of people voting for a hugely problematic nazi sympathizing party - is a terrible outcome.

Yes, other right-ish parties need to take on some of the policy that make AfD popular. But how are they going to do that if no one is out there criticizing the AfD or making the point that it's Nazi sympathies are beyond the pale?

Where did I say their most odious policies should not be criticized?

What you DON'T do is just throw labels around. You actually have to have substance behind the criticisms. It isn't good enought to criticize their economic policy/education policy/energy policy/etc. by calling them Nazis again.

AfD supporters who aren't themselves Nazi sympathizers should be confronted with the reality of who they actually support and what sort of leaders they'd elect for their country. This type of shame (i.e., conveying the reality of the situation) should help, not hurt, the prospect of non-Nazi sympathizing right wing parties.

As we have seen from the US, this strategy just doesn't work. After a while people will just tune it out. They will listen to news/opinion which doesn't try to shame them. They will congregate with people that have similar opinions. Your only option then is to try to censor the news/opinion which doesn't try to shame them (which was tried) and that doesn't work either...and is a slippery slope to an even worse outcome.