Racist rioting in the UK

[Jamiet99uk]

Just to be clear, you support building facilities and allocating funds to exterminating Nazis and Fascists?

We have them already. They are called "police" and "courts" and "prisons".

[Jamiet99uk]

Jamie, your political doctrine seems very heavily based on violence. We exterminate those who are a threat to democracy, and when that democracy fails because our leaders become corrupt from the power to exterminate what they deem as a threat to democracy, we exterminate them and replace them with people who will exterminate the "right" people.

Seems pretty messed up to me.

You seem to equate restricting hate speech with killing everyone I disagree with.

That is not my position.

[Jamiet99uk]

It is my position that actual Fascists and Nazis exist, and that their ideology is fundamentally based on extreme racist violence. You can't be a peaceful Nazi. There isn't one. To actually subscribe to Nazi ideology is to adhere to a doctrine whereby if you can kill non-whites, or gay people, or any others you consider sub-human, and suffer no punishment, then you would do so.

It is my position that such an ideology cannot exist in parallel with any non-Nazi society. So it must be dealt with.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Who deserves the label Nazi or a Fascist? And who gets to decide that? It seems easy in the abstract, but most of the people you want to target won't be card carrying members of the British Union of Fascists. The popular definition of "fascist" has evolved in my lifetime. I believe you'd apply the word to any earnest Zionist, even though anti-Zionism is yet another form of advocating genocide.

Aren't you a communist and a proponent of political violence to achieve goals you perceive as progressive? While we're in the business of "dealing with" bad ideas, aren't you concerned some folks would want to squelch this point of view?

There is a prominent "Land Back" Indigenous rights movement in Canada. No matter how you slice it, the Land Back movement advocates for a counter-genocide against colonizers (i.e., at a minimum they would have to forcibly remove millions from their homes). Are they first nations supremacist fascists? I disagree with them, but I think they're entitled to advocate for extreme and even violent positions.

I agree the speech of a card carrying Nazi is vile and not particularly valuable. I just don't think we have a reliable way to single out only those baddies we don't want to hear from. You live in a country that has hate speech laws and still suffered white supremacist race riots - it's clearly no panacea.

[CaptainFritz28]

Just to be clear, you support building facilities and allocating funds to exterminating Nazis and Fascists?

We have them already. They are called "police" and "courts" and "prisons".

And they punish those who actually act out the physical consequences of evil opinions.

[CaptainFritz28]

Jamie, your political doctrine seems very heavily based on violence. We exterminate those who are a threat to democracy, and when that democracy fails because our leaders become corrupt from the power to exterminate what they deem as a threat to democracy, we exterminate them and replace them with people who will exterminate the "right" people.

Seems pretty messed up to me.

You seem to equate restricting hate speech with killing everyone I disagree with.

That is not my position.

You stated that:

A "liberal society" can't tolerate the existence of Fascists and Neo-Nazis.

Now I presume that you intend to mean that a liberal society is a good one. If not, stop me here.

If that is the case, then there is only one course of action to truly be intolerable of their existence, and that is to give them an ultimatum: cease to be Nazis and Fascists, or else die. Perhaps you could establish re-education camps, already a dangerous proposal in and of itself, and force them to attend, but the only way to really be sure that we don't tolerate Nazis and Fascists existing is to force them to change or die. Considering that people are not likely to truly change their beliefs at the point of a gun, but will more likely simply lie and say that they are a good liberal democrat when they are in fact not, you're going to end up killing a good amount of people.

In other words, conform to our beliefs of what is the best political system, in action, speech, and thought, or we kill you.

Now, then, I don't suppose you know any other ways to not tolerate their existence. If you do, I'll be happy to listen to your alternatives. If, perhaps, you did not mean that which you said, and wish to retract or change your statement, I would gladly accept that. But words have real meaning, Jamie, and your words mean death.

[CaptainFritz28]

It is my position that actual Fascists and Nazis exist, and that their ideology is fundamentally based on extreme racist violence. You can't be a peaceful Nazi. There isn't one. To actually subscribe to Nazi ideology is to adhere to a doctrine whereby if you can kill non-whites, or gay people, or any others you consider sub-human, and suffer no punishment, then you would do so.

It is my position that such an ideology cannot exist in parallel with any non-Nazi society. So it must be dealt with.

Funny... this is exactly what those in Israel who you claim to have genocidal intentions use to justify the killing of innocent Palestinians, simply in regard to Muslims rather than Nazis.

The more this thread goes on, the more you sound like Putin and Netanyahu, two people who, if my information is up to date, you absolutely abhor. So why is it that you contradict yourself so?

It's a very dangerous thing, assuming that any who associate even remotely with a certain cause are murderers. Is it not better to judge their words by their actions, rather than judging what their actions will be by their words?

[CaptainFritz28]

You live in a country that has hate speech laws and still suffered white supremacist race riots - it's clearly no panacea.

Here is a point I find interesting, and rather poignant. How, Jamie, do you intend to keep people from saying what you don't want them to say? There are many places with laws against it, yet those within still do so. You may ban them from social media. They'll hold rallies and protests. You may ban them from gathering in public. They'll gather in their homes. You may break into their houses and split them up. They'll graffiti the streets and distribute pamphlets to all who will take one. You may arrest them and throw them where they'll never be heard from again. Others will hear, and even those who disagree with their cause will riot against you. So you may execute them and arrest all who sympathize with their release.

And now we have arrived at tyranny. Is it a slippery slope? Yes. Is it historically accurate? Yes.

[kingofthepirates]

The more this thread goes on, the more you sound like Putin and Netanyahu, two people who, if my information is up to date, you absolutely abhor.

I'm not going to get into the weeds and discourse about ideas of free speech, but jeez this thread is rather depressing. Seems to have become literally 1984 (the book) with all the dystopia .

Oh yeah, my point of jumping in on this quote is to point out that I don't think this is surprising. I don't know all that much about politics, but more I learn and see, the more I feel like the political spectrum isn't a line, but some kind of twisted circle where people on both extremes are surprising close to each other.

[Octavious]

Seems to have become literally 1984 (the book) with all the dystopia .

How so?

[kingofthepirates]

Seems to have become literally 1984 (the book) with all the dystopia .

How so?

reflexive meme: anything relating to censorship is instantly a 1984 reference (it's "literally 1984").

[Jamiet99uk]

In other words, conform to our beliefs of what is the best political system, in action, speech, and thought, or we kill you.

Now you seem to be describing US foreign policy since the mid 20th Century.

[CaptainFritz28]

Oh yeah, my point of jumping in on this quote is to point out that I don't think this is surprising. I don't know all that much about politics, but more I learn and see, the more I feel like the political spectrum isn't a line, but some kind of twisted circle where people on both extremes are surprising close to each other.

This is a good point, although little comfort.

[CaptainFritz28]

In other words, conform to our beliefs of what is the best political system, in action, speech, and thought, or we kill you.

Now you seem to be describing US foreign policy since the mid 20th Century.

I tend to agree with you here, not in every case but perhaps as a general rule, and I think it's sad that we've fallen into the trap of the Military Industrial Complex.

(Although I don't see what that whataboutery has to do with the current discussion.)

[Jamiet99uk]

I think the discussion has run it's course. I remain of the view that some forms of hate speech should be considered crimes, because they can cause actual harms. You libertarians don't agree. You think my views are extreme. I think the same of yours.