Lock him up

[Octavious]

And now for a Christmas message from the veteran political campaigner, and elder brother of the former Labour Party leader, Piers Corbyn.

https://twitter.com/habibi_uk/status/14 ... BuM1g&s=19

Heart-warming stuff...

[Octavious]

The competition to achieve the title of biggest twat called Piers has been extremely hard fought in the UK for some time, but I reckon it's just been pinched by House Corbyn.

[Octavious]

For those of you who don't know much about Piers Corbyn, he is the personification of the loony left. An ex-Labour Councillor and Marxist who believes (and I dare say Americans will find this particularly amusing) that climate change is a Conservative conspiracy started by Margaret Thatcher.

[Jamiet99uk]

He is a complete loon.

[orathaic]

I mean, he has a point. If you believe that fascists have been allowed to take over, and 'just opposing them politely' in the next election is liable to result in no more elections (which i suspect isn't the case). Then yes, calling for political violence (to oppose the state violence being done every day) could be justified.

[Octavious]

I mean, he has a point. If you believe that fascists have been allowed to take over, and 'just opposing them politely' in the next election is liable to result in no more elections (which i suspect isn't the case). Then yes, calling for political violence (to oppose the state violence being done every day) could be justified.

No, he doesn't. Pretty much every tyrant and terrorist in history have justified their actions based on a delusional belief that the evil they do is somehow necessary. It is not. Neither the Tories nor Labour are fascists. Anyone calling for extreme violence on the basis that they are is at best mentally ill and at worst a domestic terrorist.

[orathaic]

All that is prefaced with an IF.

Infact we're it not the case that there are alternative means to end the Tory dominance of the country and end their brand of, let's call it nationalism (if only temporarily), his point might stand. But as it is, i am actually agreeing with you.

This does not make him a loon.

Also, 'every Tyrant'... Yeah it's not just Tyrants and Terrorists that justify their actions. The current Tory war on disabled, migrants, and people who just look like they shouldn't have been granted citizenship, (not to mention the poor), is much less direct violence, but it is pushing people past their breaking points. People are literally dying. And any defence of that disgusting behaviour is reprehensible.

The scandals and corruption may swing some seats towards the Lib Dems, and Labour may recover in a few places, but the real evil of the Tory party is how they treat the 'unworthy'.

[Octavious]

All that is prefaced with an IF.

It was prefaced with "he has a point". Perhaps you could enlighten me about what his point is? I am willing to accept that everything following the if was a hypothetical, extreme, and unconnected irrelevance if you so wish.

Also, 'every Tyrant'... Yeah it's not just Tyrants and Terrorists that justify their actions. The current Tory war on disabled, migrants, and people who just look like they shouldn't have been granted citizenship, (not to mention the poor), is much less direct violence, but it is pushing people past their breaking points. People are literally dying. And any defence of that disgusting behaviour is reprehensible.

The scandals and corruption may swing some seats towards the Lib Dems, and Labour may recover in a few places, but the real evil of the Tory party is how they treat the 'unworthy'.

No, the real danger of the radical extremist is how they use rhetoric and propaganda to dehumanise their opponents and reduce them to caricatures of evil. And then they wonder why acts of violence occur.

[Jamiet99uk]

Octavious: You might want to consider if your description of someone as a "twat" and the "personification of the loony left" is reducing that person to a caricature, no?

I mean, I don't dispute that Piers Corbyn is a loon, I'm just responding to your own line of argument.

[Octavious]

It's a question of scale, surely, otherwise you'd never be able to criticise anyone. There's a world of difference between treating someone with contempt or showing you have zero respect for them, and by portraying them as disgusting evildoers with a trail of bodies behind them, or by calling for their deaths by hammering and the burning down of their place of work

[orathaic]

All that is prefaced with an IF.

It was prefaced with "he has a point". Perhaps you could enlighten me about what his point is? I am willing to accept that everything following the if was a hypothetical, extreme, and unconnected irrelevance if you so wish.

You can't just ignore the rest.

His point is, if you believe the system is inherently violent it is justified to use violence in defending yourself from it. Especially violence in the name of changing the system.

Tactically it is wrong, and doomed to fail. And Practically i don't think he is even getting through to those who the system has inflicted violence up (think the Grenfell Tower fire victims). But the system needs to change, and no amount of asking nicely for rights has ever worked... So violence becomes an appealing option.

One I categorically reject as it happens. I believe civil disobedience can win out (though state violence from the police then becomes inevitable). And beyond that, i am no Marxist, and bear no good will to the alternative Piers sounds like he would build. That said, any system created by violence will inevitably see violence as an acceptable tactic. So Marxist or not, his views are deplorable.

[orathaic]

It's a question of scale, surely, otherwise you'd never be able to criticise anyone. There's a world of difference between treating someone with contempt or showing you have zero respect for them, and by portraying them as disgusting evildoers with a trail of bodies behind them, or by calling for their deaths by hammering and the burning down of their place of work

Of course, always a question of scale, if you only starve poor children a little bit, maybe they will learn to work harder when they grow up... And if a few disabled people die because of cuts then it's not really the government's fault for cutting them off... Just dehumanise them a little and the public won't get too worked up.

[Octavious]

What you're essentially saying, ora, is that he has a point on the basis that everything can be justified if you believe that it's justified. If I believed that you were being possessed by the devil and I believed I had a waterbomb filled with holy water, then I'd be justified in throwing said waterbomb at your face.

No

Tis all bollocks

For an action to be justified there has to be a reasonable basis for the belief behind the action to be considered to be true. Both Labour and the Tories being fascist, and my waterbomb containing holy water capable of driving back the devil, are not remotely reasonable ideas. I'd probably struggle even to win the argument over your satanic possession

Just dehumanise them a little and the public won't get too worked up.

Go on then, ora, how are the disabled being dehumanised?

[orathaic]

Go on then, ora, how are the disabled being dehumanised?

It is not really my place to speak for them. Go listen to what the voices in your own community say. There are people who have been told to 'just get a job' - when that isn't possible - and those whose have taken their own lives after having their disability payments cut off.

Both Labour and the Tories being fascist...

They are both Capitalistic. That is the current centre left labour party.

For some that form of Capitalism is Fascistic.

That you can't concieve of this is pretty underwhelming.

You seem almost upset by the idea that Capitalism does harm actually. Is that an accurate description? Have i touched on an integral part of your identity?

[Octavious]

It is not really my place to speak for them. Go listen to what the voices in your own community say.

And yet so often you do. Ora, I know plenty of people who have disabilities. What they say and how you perceive the world are very different things. Searching Twitter for stories that match your world view just reinforces your world view.

They are both Capitalistic. That is the current centre left labour party.

For some that form of Capitalism is Fascistic.

That you can't concieve of this is pretty underwhelming.

You seem almost upset by the idea that Capitalism does harm actually. Is that an accurate description? Have i touched on an integral part of your identity?

Ah, and here comes the inevitable "white is a pale shade of black" argument. There are indeed people for whom the centre left Labour Party and their economic policy are fascist, but these people are exclusively insufferable loons who don't understand what fascism is. About them a shit I do not give. If you are just going to play the crazy semantics game again it is utterly pointless continuing the discussion.

Is being upset by the concept of capitalism being harmful an integral part of my identity? What does that even mean?

[orathaic]

Is being upset by the concept of capitalism being harmful an integral part of my identity? What does that even mean

it means your reading comprehension isn't that good, or you are deliberately pretending to be an idiot. Either way i'm done wasting time on you.

[Octavious]

Either way i'm done wasting time on you.

Best Christmas ever

[Jamiet99uk]

Go on then, ora, how are the disabled being dehumanised?

It is not really my place to speak for them. Go listen to what the voices in your own community say. There are people who have been told to 'just get a job' - when that isn't possible - and those whose have taken their own lives after having their disability payments cut off.

Both Labour and the Tories being fascist...

They are both Capitalistic. That is the current centre left labour party.

For some that form of Capitalism is Fascistic.

That you can't concieve of this is pretty underwhelming.

You seem almost upset by the idea that Capitalism does harm actually. Is that an accurate description? Have i touched on an integral part of your identity?

Ok look. I think most people who know me, or who have seen me post on this forum, would acknowledge that I'm pretty left wing. I am a former member of the Communist Party and continue to regard socialism as the key to achieving a better, happier, healthier society, and to protecting the environment and mitigating the harm we are causing to it.

If I had to define the UK's current Conservative Government, politically, I would describe them as a kleptocracy. Johnson and his Cabinet are a bunch of grasping, opportunistic, unprincipled thieves and looters, who have brazenly abused their power and taken advantage of the Covid-19 situation to enrich themselves and their friends. Open corruption is taking place in full view of the public and I consider this deeply shameful.

There are people in the Conservative party, and their voter base, who have what I would describe as fascistic tendencies. Less so than in the likes of the BNP and what's left of UKIP, who in the context of this discussion might be described as the "Loony Right".

The Labour Party under Kier Starmer is a deeply underwhelming, value-less, rudderless morass that has abandoned the left and seems to think that simply being a bit more competent than Boris is sufficient to justify them gaining power whilst attempting to avoid expressing a strong opinion on any major issue. Their leadership are a horribly disappointing group of class traitors, with the exception of a couple of people such as David Lammy and Angela Rayner (who Kier despises, but who holds her position as Deputy Leader by virtue of grass-roots support) and most of the actual decent socialists like Barry Gardiner relegated to the back-benches.

However, are they fascists? Really? No, come on, they aren't. Yes they're crap, yes they they're a betrayal to all of the real socialists left in their movement, but fascist? No. Fascism describes a particular thing and however much I dislike them, the Labour party is not a fascist party.

[orathaic]

Not fascists, no, but being in favour of the current system with little change facilitates crony capitalism, it facilitate dismantling of the welfare state (which for all its problems and need for reform, is still vastly better than the unfettered capitalism in other parts of the world).

To quote Howard Zimm, 'You can't be neutral on a moving train'

And while you may call it leadership, i have yet to see anything of the sort from Labour.

[Jamiet99uk]

Not fascists, no, but being in favour of the current system with little change facilitates crony capitalism, it facilitate dismantling of the welfare state (which for all its problems and need for reform, is still vastly better than the unfettered capitalism in other parts of the world).

To quote Howard Zimm, 'You can't be neutral on a moving train'

And while you may call it leadership, i have yet to see anything of the sort from Labour.

Oh
My
Fucking
God

I said I hated their leadership.

What more can I fucking say????