Lepanto II

[Jamiet99uk]

Did you not bother to read the part where he said that the article you linked to was behind a paywall? Due to the paywall, I couldn't access your initial link either. I don't know about you...but I thought it may be useful to actually provide some links that people can actually access.

You've never been concerned about the paywalls from ora's economist articles . Your bias is ever more obvious, flash. Still, my thanks for confirming the accuracy of my opening post, regardless of how irritably you have done so

Bloody hell you're such a fucking ass. Flash was being helpful, both to you and to me, by posting non-paywalled links to the story you wanted us to pay attention to. You should thank him but instead you decided to demonstrate what an utter prick you are.

[Octavious]

No he wasn't. He was trying to be critical by, bizarrely enough, inventing an alternative story to attribute to me and then correcting it by saying what I said in the first place. Flash can't help himself. He's decided I'm the enemy and insists on attacking pretty much everything I say. I know we disagree on a great deal of things, but I know that is because we have very different outlooks. Flash starts off from a position of disagreement, and works out why he's disagreeing afterwards.

[flash2015]

No he wasn't. He was trying to be critical by, bizarrely enough, inventing an alternative story to attribute to me and then correcting it by saying what I said in the first place. Flash can't help himself. He's decided I'm the enemy and insists on attacking pretty much everything I say. I know we disagree on a great deal of things, but I know that is because we have very different outlooks. Flash starts off from a position of disagreement, and works out why he's disagreeing afterwards.

I don't know what reality you are living in...but it isn't the same as the rest of us. This can't be for real? This is some prank, isn't it?

[Octavious]

Right on cue, the obligatory flash attack

As for the reality I live in, it's the one anyone can read.

So, apparently the Premier of Turkey ordered his military to sink a Greek ship...

Fortunately the Turkish military ... at least have courage enough to tell him not to be a complete madman.

Rather than actually sinking a ship, Erdogan only asked his generals to sink a ship but they refused:

A fantastic piece of additional commentary there. I was well told

You've been found out, mate. But please continue, I find your attempts at going on the offensive far more amusing than your increasingly rare "serious" posts.

[flash2015]

OK, let's go to the tape:

(1) Jamie asks for other news organizations reporting the same story as he could not access your link. Since I had the same issue, I had found some articles in English and since you had chosen not to respond (e.g. you could have copied the original or translated text in for example) I decided to post the links I had found.

(2) You responded snarkily that I posted links which cover the same info provided by your link. Of course I did because that is what Jamie asked for as your link was inaccessible...and I said as much in my response to you.

(3) You respond that I must be biased because I didn't react when orathaic provided economist links that weren't accessible...without actually providing an example of when this happened. I went back and checked the last economist link that orathaic posted and confirmed it was accessible...so I don't know what you are referring to. If orathaic posted a link that wasn't accessible and someone asked for it (and I saw the request), since I am an economist subscriber I would happily copy in the text into the threat so everyone can read it.

(4) Now you claim I was really trying to correct you and I am only doing this because I hate you. I am impressed that my few words could somehow give that idea, especially when I wasn't even responding to you. I was responding to an explicit request by Jamie for an accessible link so he, like me, could read the story with its original context (or as close to it as possible).

I am not sure why you are doing this. I guess I must have hit a nerve pointing out your disruptive trolling in previous threads. I was actually kind of interested in the discussion as I really haven't been following what is going on in Turkey recently. Unfortunately for whatever reason you decided to derail your own thread to troll again. Well done. Good job.

[Octavious]

Oh, what fun! You're really trying

(1) Jamie asks for other news organizations reporting the same story as he could not access your link. Since I had the same issue, I had found some articles in English and since you had chosen not to respond (e.g. you could have copied the original or translated text in for example) I decided to post the links I had found.

No, Jamie did not in fact do this. Jamie simply observed that the article was mostly hidden by a paywall. That's was fine by me. I had revealed the salient points of the article in my opening post. The purpose of the link was to show that this was a story from a European newspaper of good reputation, and the first paragraph easily achieves this. As for a translation, it takes anyone literally seconds these days to do that themselves, and it's far better to do your own translation than rely on someone else's. You will also note that I did not criticise your posting of the other articles, merely expressing mild bafflement that you bothered to do so. The articles themselves didn't seem to add anything, but were ultimately harmless, hence thanks... I guess. This also covers point 2, just incase you're eager to accuse me of deliberately ignoring it .

(3) You respond that I must be biased because I didn't react when orathaic provided economist links that weren't accessible...without actually providing an example of when this happened.

You want links to everything?!? This is an internet discussion, mate. I have better things to do. But you managed to find it all by yourself. Well done.

I went back and checked the last economist link that orathaic posted and confirmed it was accessible...

No, it isn't. You have signed up to the Economist, which is why you can see it.

I am an economist subscriber I would happily copy in the text into the threat so everyone can read it.

I note with interest your enthusiasm for breaking copywrite law on somebody else's gaming website. I'm not sure what this adds to the discussion, though. I am not critical of ora for posting links to articles you need to sign up to access. I'm being critical of your hypocrisy. Much like when I insult Jamie and you dedicate several paragraphs to telling me off in a holier than thou attitude, but when Jamie insults me you +1 it

Again, I am not at all critical of Jamie here. He can insult me to his heart's content, and does so. It's rather endearing. You, however, have a remarkable blind spot to your own hypocrisy and bias that needs pointing out for your own good

(4) Now you claim I was really trying to correct you and I am only doing this because I hate you.

!!!
Good God, no! Dear Lord, how you can be so wrong so often defies belief! I don't for a moment think you hate me (hey, I could be wrong, maybe you do. But if so that's your own problem. It wouldn't bother me ).

No, I think you're doing this because your a twat who can't help himself

The rest of the paragraph has been answered.

I am not sure why you are doing this.

You posted in my thread, so I responded. Much like when you address me in other threads, I respond. I would not be distressed if you refrained from doing so, although I admit I do find it and the subsequent back and forth rather entertaining.

I guess I must have hit a nerve pointing out your disruptive trolling in previous threads

I've concluded you don't actually know what trolling means. In terms of hitting a nerve, it is disappointing to see you repeat the same thing over and over again, but what you lack in imagination you make up for in effort . I'm sure you're doing your best.

[flash2015]

OK, this is getting tiring. I should stop feeding the troll.

[MajorMitchell]

I think the man I and many others admire and respect, the founder of modern Turkey, who fought to establish a democratic, secular nation state would be disgusted with the way Erdogan is taking Turkey, the rise of extremist conservative Islamic influence on the Turkish government is to be deplored.

[yavuzovic]

I think the man I and many others admire and respect, the founder of modern Turkey, who fought to establish a democratic, secular nation state would be disgusted with the way Erdogan is taking Turkey, the rise of extremist conservative Islamic influence on the Turkish government is to be deplored.

I too am disgusted with my country being led by undercovered religious, but I hate it when someone speaks like this.
First, Erdogan strikes a lot as he is the figure on Turkey, but noting can go this far without the support of people. While there is a strong opposition, unfortunately the majority of Turkish people still support Erdogan. Once I worked in a government campaign to spread small sheets before the election. There, I literally saw an old lady refusing to the design only because it doesn't include a picture of Erdogan. Whatever, my second objection is acting like you know the best for other people. Modern and secular Turkey led today's democratic (many of you will refuse this though) environment where Erdogan came in action, but the people's mentality is different. I can believe that a secular state is better, and you can believe it; but forcing people to do what you consider correct is not okay. People are extremist and religious, and democracy says that country should also be like that. Neither Turkey's establisher rules people's minds, not Erdogan comes without people's wish. The fault belongs to the Turkish people, and Erdogan only represents this idea - nothing more.

[Octavious]

Yavuzovic raises a very good point. Much of the world became far too used to relying on the Turkish military to step in and remove Turkish political leaders when they stepped too far away from Western ideals. Whilst this led to something that on the surface resembled western style democracies, the reality is that a huge number of people were denied a democratic voice.

In terms of fault... perhaps more could have been done by the proponents of genuine western style democracy to educate the people about their benefits, and generally promote the idea. Or maybe western style democracy is wrong for Turkey at this time, and the people are right to reject it. Regardless, you can't help but feel that there's been a massive missed opportunity somewhere here.

[Le Plume]

It wasn't too long ago there was discussion of Turkey entering the E.U. Was that a pipe dream? Or a missed opportunity.

[Octavious]

A missed opportunity, perhaps, or a narrowly avoided disaster. Who knows? Turkey was never a perfect fit, but maybe EU membership would have helped change it into something that was just about compatible. Or maybe it would have been another lever to tear the EU apart. One wonders what would have changed for all the refugees in Turkey if they were all in the EU... possibly nothing if the Greek example is anything to go by.

Come to think of it, why doesn't Greece just grant all of its refugees citizenship and watch them vanish to become part of another European country's problem?

[Beneficial Insurance]

Gotta love the artical being in german(?) and everyone discussing it in English. Gotta fire up the old google translate to figure out what in the world is going on lol.

[flash2015]

Gotta love the artical being in german(?) and everyone discussing it in English. Gotta fire up the old google translate to figure out what in the world is going on lol.

Do you actually have access to it? I get hit by a paywall. This is why I posted the English links.

[orathaic]

It wasn't too long ago there was discussion of Turkey entering the E.U. Was that a pipe dream? Or a missed opportunity.

Turkey officially began trying to join the EEC in 1959 (which preceded the EU), they were frustrated for many decades (formally applying in 1987, after work towards a customs Union).

Full membership talks began in 2005. 11 years later, 1 out of 35 chapters had been completed. The change in govt in Turkey has been a significant part to play, with a shift towards focusing on the Islamic world and extending Turkish influence in that direction.

Combined with anti-Turkish sentiment coming from a number of EU members, France coming to mind. I think it is the most striking failure, Europe had a chance to integrate more closely with Turkey, unfortunately the limited gains appears to be seen as a failure and Turkish politicians see more success in relationships with Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Iran (all but the last being former Ottoman territories)

[Le Plume]

Are there many ties between Turkey and former Ottoman territory in Europe?