Ghost Rating Challenge - 2025?

[DougJoe]

It's a little earlier than I intended, but I've given the password to one of the substitute candidates.

[Hughganought]

Thanks DougJoe, and thanks to Echidna for stepping up.

And once again thanks for organising the whole GR challenge event: there's no point in Diplomacy unless you've got a community to lie to, so thanks for making that happen

[echidna]

Whoa, what's this about lying? What have I gotten into??

[DougJoe]

GR Challenge 2025 Game 2 has ended in a E/G/T draw.

Thanks again to everyone for participating! I didn't keep up as much as I should have with my game notes this game so it might be a bit before I finish and post.

[Aristocrat]

GG all! Can we reveal identities now?

Anon identities are automatically revealed at the end of the game

I spectated and held back on some thoughts for most of it, provided some minor ones in this thread. Maybe I will provide some more as an outsider later.

I am slightly curious as to what went on in S1904 and why you tried to help Italy instead of just letting Austria run away with it.

Honestly it was a bad call, but I thought it would earn goodwill from Germany. At the time it seemed like people were scared of an Austrian solo. I also tried to negotiate for a share of the centers with Austria but it didn't pan out.

That makes sense. I haven't played a real stakes game in almost a year due to a self-imposed hiatus, but I was following G1 here throughout. Had some observations that I guess I will share if for no other reason that it might get some of the other G1 players to chime in with their thoughts, and I'm always wanting to know how other players think.

S1901: England opens up with a seriously anti-France move, Germany opens moderately pro-France, France opens pro-Germany, AIR opens anti-Turkey, Turkey opens pro-jugg and gets stabbed seemingly immediately. Not a bad move from Russia, although letting Austria into Gal is a gamble (that pays off later). Hard to say as an outsider what was negotiated and what was a stab.

A1901: The AR reveals itself. If I'm Italy, I'm sweating bullets, and if I'm Turkey, I'm probably on the verge of threatening to throw if I can. Germany supporting Lon->Nor is weird since no one could contest North besides Germany, and it gives a gunboat-style "I want to ally with you" signal to everyone else. Though, if I'm England I'm miffed that they let Russia into Sweden instead of bouncing, so that gives Germany some plausible deniability. At this level of play, I think most people would say that Germany's non-bounce of Russia is actually anti-England. Germany not entering Bur also suggests an anti-England motive.

As would reveal itself later, this was good cover by Germany.

If Turkey did not agree to let Russia into BS in S1901, they probably shouldn't have moved to Sev in A1901, as a bounce was the likely outcome. Better to prevent Russia from building a fleet in Sev, which is what they did. If Russia doesn't build a fleet in Sev, Turkey could build a fleet in Con or Ank and perpetually bounce Bul->BS. That said, to some extent it's a weighted coin flip on whether you think Russia will do the probably move, and bounce Sev, or whether they'll try to anticipate your move, and leave it open.

F Nap is probably a better build for Italy at this point than A Ven, but it's close.

S1902: Games aren't usually lost in 1901, but they are in 1902. Italy is in a hard spot here but I suspect the correct move in this instance is to move Tun->Apu and Tus->Pie to set up a potential stalemate against Austria in Ven in F1902. On one hand, that resigns you to a permanently defensive game, and odds are that one of E or F will come attack you from the rear down the road. On the other hand, AR has shown such a solid alliance thus far that third-wheeling into Turkey via a Lepanto seems like an unlikely outcome, particularly in a one-off high level game. As stated above, Italy and Turkey probably should have coordinated a bit more here on their defenses. Russia may have eventually cracked realizing that either England or Germany would be down their throats soon enough to turn around and agree to stab Austria with IT.

England has both of FG wrapped around their finger with a dual support into Bel. A big bounce in Burgundy, too. Though just from an outsider's perspective, it looks like any of the possible northern configurations were in play, including a Western Triple.

A1902: Predictably, Austria had moved to Tyr/Tri and then takes Ven this turn. England and Germany reveal their hands and attack Bur. Italy moves to Apu a turn too late.

S1903: Nothing super notable this turn I guess. Italy probably should have played more +EV at this point and gone to Albania but their chances of surviving are dimming at this point. The north is likely too balanced for Italy or Turkey to make it. France is playing it very well for being on the wrong side of the northern triangle. Russia arguably should hold Moscow since A Sev doesn't do much good to attack turkey.

A1903: Germany appears to stab England! In coordination with Russia nonetheless, whose failure to order Swe->Nor let Germany slip into North Sea. Germany's building of A Kie is a bit schizophrenic in that regard (not bad for Germany). Russia attempts to stab Austria, which I think was a year too early. England gets into STP, which makes me think this was all a giant plan to eliminate Russia. England hadn't been moving F Nor before this turn. I guess when you weigh the army build and the English slip into STP, it appears to be a clever continuation of the alliance via a fake stab.

S1904: I stated this before, but I think France made an error here going into support Italy. With close coordination, they could have gotten a good shot at a German army on England, perhaps in exchange for Bel down the road. Russia attacks Turkey right after stabbing Austria(?) and Italy fights for its life.

A1904: Germany's moves don't scream anti-France, but the bounce in Norway kind of suggests a deliberately planned bounce that Germany deceived Russia on (when combined with an unnecessary support from Hol->Bel).

S1905: Not sure I disagree with any of the moves here, but the end game begins to come into sight after moves are revealed. EGA are in an alliance. And there isn't really a way for anyone to stop them. Can anyone throw?

A1905: Same as above.

1906 onward: This is mostly England/Germany/Austria cleaning up the board, carefully curated to ensure no one could get a solo chance. I do wonder if anyone can come up with a plausible scenario where Turkey can be angry enough to throw to England or someone else. Or if one of E/G/A could come up with some scenario to get a solo themselves. But the rest of the game plays out in a fairly predictable 3WD fashion.

[JECE]

Very interesting analysis! I was Russia and I think that you've convinced me that Germany was plotting my demise as early as 1903. But what did Germany and England really gain from that conspiracy if they were still going for a win? The English fleet that sailed into StP in 1903 was stuck there literally the entire rest of the game. And the German navy never recovered from losing the Baltic Fleet, which had acted as a German proxy. Also, both English and German solo aspirations were hampered by weakening a southern power's ability to keep Austria-Hungary in check.

I'll shed some light soon on some of the behind-the-scenes goings-on that I was privy to.

[Hughganought]

GR3 Melnitz has also concluded with a three way EFI draw.

I'm stranded away from my keyboard, and writing an EOG on my phone is not appealing, so for now I'll say thank you all, I enjoyed the game, and I'm looking forward to having my moves and character impuned in other people's analysis!

[KingRishard]

Interesting to see that all 3 games ended in a 3 way draw that included England! Looking forward to seeing more post mortems (I'll post my own about Game 1, where I was England later on)

[Theodoric]

Thank you Aristocrat--really interesting! I'm planning to write up a post-mortem too and just haven't had the time. (I was Austria)

[DreamTrawler]

Great writeup Aristocrat! You pretty much summed up my feelings as France. I went in trying to ally Germany but also tried to keep the door open for England. After Germany attacked Burgundy I thought England would be cozying up to me.

The mutual support of England into Belgium made me suspicious and I almost ordered a poke of Belgium but instead foolishly let my two neighbors jointly attack me. I managed to push Germany out and England seemed down to ally, but I made the mistake of turning to the Med and they took me down soon after.

I probably should've just tried to turtle and find allies on the other side of the map, but I kept asking Austria and Russia to go after Germany to no avail. In the end I was trying to shore up bad tactics with press which doesn't really work at this level of play.

[DougJoe]

Ok, here's my recap, but be warned, I come from the Yigg School of Writing (TM)...

So, I ended up arranging a Ghost Rating Challenge on WebDip for 2025. We had 28 people sign up. However, when the games were created 4 people didn’t show up and we only ended up having 3 games (yet another apology to Klaus_Klauts for leaving him out of game 3!)

I ended up in game 2. The roster is as follows:

1. Pinecone333 - 785
2. gimix - 814
3. cormorant - 876
4. DougJoe - 1,045
5. Wusti - 4,450
6. UnknownHero - 4,491
7. Hamilton Brian - 4,734

I’m smack in the middle of this one.. Wonder which power I get this time?

…drum roll…

The answer is England!

Now, it’s been a *long* time since I played as England in a normal press game with humans - and to be honest that game didn’t go very well. I found England at that time to be constricting, but that was a long time ago… so pip, pip, chin up and cheerio, it’s off we go!

Pre-Spring 1901
Well, in a twist of fate, the game starts on a morning where I have come down with a nasty little bug - fever/chills, achy, tired - and I honestly am having a hard time getting engaged because I don’t feel like doing much of anything. That illness lasts the whole phase, but since we’ve finally started after months I don’t want to ask for a pause right off the bat.

Messages go out to everyone, eventually. Everything is pretty friendly in the beginning. I intuit to Turkey (very, very mildly) that I wouldn’t mind us both fighting Russia. Russia wants a fleet in Norway, not an army. France proposes a Western Triple and wants a DMZ of ENC. Italy and I agree that France is a long-term threat and that we need to keep an eye on him but neither of us is going to attack just yet (I tell Italy I’ve agreed to the DMZ and that I’m not a turn one stabber). Not much with Austria other than passing a few tidbits of info. Germany talks about DMZs with Russia but also sort of seems onboard with a WT.

Long term, I’m hoping that France and Italy will end up getting mixed up in a conflict that’s unprofitable for both of them. France not making progress gives me time to do so. If Italy is competent and holds him off then I’ll have options. If Italy doesn’t, I can try to run the WT angle. I don’t really want to try to jump France right out of the gate - that feels like a bad idea in this game. Germany does seem to be someone I can work with to some degree and as long as he also doesn’t grow too fast by going after France, it should be okay. I forget to verify the DMZ of ENC with France until near the very end of the turn - that’s an honest mistake, it’s been too long since I’ve played press! I also don’t yet give Russia an answer as to Norway, I tell him I’m still thinking about it and want to see how things shake out this turn.

I decide to trust France’s request for the DMZ and the WT and play the following:

Lvp-Edi
Edi-NWS
Lon-NTH

Post Spring 1901/Autumn 1901

Everybody’s moves around the board are pretty standard - except for maybe France’s, I don’t think I’ve ever seen Bre-MAO, Mar H, Par-Pic. That makes sense though when I hear about a DMZ of Burgundy from Germany. The interesting thing is that Turkey is going after Russia but it also looks like Italy might Lepanto?

So the big questions for this turn are Belgium, Sweden, and Norway. Turkey notes that Russia could be denied a build this year, but it sounds like Germany is going to let Russia into Sweden. This makes me not want to put an army in Norway as I don’t want to give Russia any reason to build in Stp. There was talk of me dropping NTH-Bel, but I don’t want to let go of NTH. I propose to F/G that we all bounce in Belgium and that we drop the hammer on Russia in ‘02. France wants me to be more aggressive than that but I wave it off. I tell Russia I’m putting a fleet in Norway to which he agrees (and I think he was grateful before the phase ended but I’m not 100% sure).

So the moves are as follows:

NWS-Nwy
NTH C Edi-Bel

Post Autumn 1901/Winter 1901
Russia does get Sweden but not Rumania. Italy slides a fleet into Tunis and moves Ven-Tyo (odd). France takes Por/Spa. E/G/F bounce in Belgium. Perhaps the most interesting thing is that Austria helps Turkey into Rumania and no one gets Bulgaria.

England, Russia, Italy: +1
France, Germany, Turkey, Austria: +2

I ask Russia if he’s building A Mos (I think the only sane choice) but he doesn’t respond. France says he’s building Par/Mar (but doesn’t say what unit type Mar will be, but I’m guessing it’s a fleet). I love those builds from France. I tell F/G I’m building in London - France I tell it will probably be a fleet and Germany I eventually tell it will definitely be a fleet. Germany eventually decides to build A Mun, F Kie (Munich because of Italy) and while I’m not 100% thrilled about the second fleet, I go along with it. I do consider building an army but, honestly, where’s it gonna go? I can’t get the first one off the island.

Moves: Build F Lon
Spring 1902
The builds:
Austria - A Tri, A Bud
England - F Lon
France - F Mar, A Par
Germany - A Mun, F Kie
Italy - F Nap
Russia - A Mos
Turkey - F Con

I think I like all these builds, especially France’s and Russia’s. France looks like he is committed to going after Italy. Russia doesn’t appear to be going after Norway.

Russia starts getting me to try to turn on France or Germany but is happy I didn’t convoy to Norway. I ask Russia for support for Edi-Den, but he doesn’t go for it (not surprising). I tell him Germany is being pushy and try to mislead him into thinking England/Germany isn’t going well. Russia can’t agree to this since Germany allowed him into Sweden.

Italy and I have some conversation - Italy wants me to help him against France but I really don’t want to - again, I want France and Italy to be tied up in an unprofitable war while I think about Stp. Italy also notes Germany’s fleet build and what it might mean for a Western Triple.

France and I don’t talk much - he requests that if I want Belgium, that I put a fleet there… and I actually don’t want Belgium - I don’t want to be between F/G. I tell him I will keep to our DMZ of ENC.

Germany says that Austria notices the WT and doesn’t care because France isn’t going anywhere against Italy. We toss back and forth ideas - things definitely hinge on Russia’s answers. Russia finally says no and Germany says this ruins his plans. I put out the idea of stabbing France (although I’m not thrilled about it) and Germany says it’s too early. So, all in all, I decide to play east:

Lon S NTH, NTH C Edi-Nwy, Nwy-Bar. I don’t expect Edi-Nwy to work, actually, but oh well.
Post Spring 1902/Autumn 1902
Turkey forces BLA. Russia does bounce me out of Nwy. Germany takes Bel. Italy, for some weird reason, doesn’t move Tyo but does head west. Austria walks into Venice. Turkey helps Austria into Gal and Russia tries to do the same but from a different source. France goes east except for F Por, which goes to MAO instead of Spain.

So there’s an A/T going on. Italy can take back Ven but it’s a guess… he probably also has to cover Tunis and Naples?

There’s a lot of press this turn.

I note Austria’s stab on Italy and get a lot of info back from him. He’s annoyed by Italy because he feels like Italy talks too much and leaks stuff that wasn’t supposed to be leaked. He feels like he’s been bullied by both Germany and Russia. He feels like France doesn’t talk enough. So that leaves me and Turkey for him to work with, hence the A/T. He mentions that A/E/T might be a thing later.

I give Italy some thoughts about his guessing this turn. I see it as Tyo S Rom-Ven or Rom S Tyo-Ven. I mention that Austria’s not fond of him but don’t feel like it’s my place to go into specifics. Italy is surprised the E/G are being so nice to France - oh, Italy, just wait and watch…

Turkey mentions the WT but I don’t outright confirm it - I try to give more of a “I’m not sure” vibe but call out Germany (since he’s in Bel) rather than France (who is probably the one I would target in the future). We talk a little about Stp (Turkey wants me to go there, but…)

Russia isn’t surprised I attacked him (we had no agreements) but is upset that Germany broke an agreement between the two of them (DMZ of Baltic, Germany confirms). He asks if I want to stop my attack and work together against Germany. I don’t want to do that at all, but maybe I can keep my relationship with Russia on a positive note? I mention to him that’s it’s too bad that he didn’t want to work together in A01 but that I understand it. I give him kudos on the bounce in Nwy but am not sure how we can work together against Germany. I tell Russia that I’m not going to move BAR-Stp (not thrilled about a fleet in Stp nc for one dot). He says he will cover it all the same and I don’t disagree. He says that if I play NTH S Bar-Nwy we’ll be good and then we’ll work against Germany. I tell him that I’m cool with Bar-Nwy, but I might use NTH to tap Den instead (see the comms with Germany below). He seems to agree.

I tell France I couldn’t move NTH-Bel because it needed to convoy Edi. We don’t talk much (see Austria’s comments on France) but the fleet in MAO makes me a little nervous (a move to NAO or IRI to backdoor Lvp) so I ask him if it’s okay if I move Lon-Wal for defensive purposes. He says that as long as I stay out of ENC, he’s fine with it. I don’t remember if it’s this turn or the next turn where I get the idea of this fleet wandering its way towards France for a stab without going to ENC.

Germany and I discuss a lot of options. We talk about our expansion paths forward (him into Austria, me into Stp and maybe Moscow). I talk about how I’d rather work with him than France in the long run (this is true, see Austria’s notes on France this turn) and that I can keep building fleets and he can keep building armies. I come up with the idea of Edi-Den. For me, this serves the dual purposes of getting a build and making it look to Russia like I’m attacking Germany. Germany and I discuss it - I note that if he keeps Denmark, he’ll have 7 centers to my 4. If I get Denmark, it’ll be a closer divide at 6 and 5. It wouldn’t have been the end of the world at 7/4 but he seems to want to keep things close. He’s worried about getting too tangled up and I come at it with confidence - we’ll get things sorted out. He’s not thrilled about me using A Den (which is funny since F Den is infinitely more valuable) but agrees.

So my moves are: Lon-Wal, NTH C Edi-Den, BAR-Nwy

Post Autumn 1902/Winter 1902
So fun things happen. Italy doesn’t play either of the moves I suggested but makes a lunge for Vie from Tyo.. but Austria self bounces in Tri so the move to Vie doesn’t work since Austria’s army in Vie stays where it is. Italy bounces with Austria in Tun and forces TYS-Nap. France pushes Italy out of WMS but Italy retreats to Spain and thus France loses a unit and Italy doesn’t. France is also in Pie. Austria gets Bulgaria following in behind Turkey who gets Sev (which is disbanded). Russia did move to Stp (I told him I wasn’t going to move there!) Germany gets Bel and Swe and is annoyed at Austria’s retreat from Gal into Sil. Russia could have actually saved Sev by Ukr & Mos S Sev. The Italy/France mess is exactly what I wanted to happen.

After the dust settles, it’s Austria +1 (he’s actually +2 but can only build one), England +1, France -1, Germany +1, Italy even, Russia -1, and Turkey +1?

What to build? Russia tells me he’s going to disband A Stp - this surprises me, I feel like the army is more valuable than F GOB (where Sweden retreated to) but okay. He tells me that if I leave Stp alone, he’ll order that fleet however I want. Ah, that’s *nice*. Germany asks me what I’m building - I don’t remember my exact plans but I tell him F Lon (don’t remember what I was thinking about the possibility of F Edi). He tells me he’s thinking about A Kiel to deal with Austria. Sounds good to me. Italy and I talk about things, I mention that I’m thinking about F Lon (it’s not as obvious as F Lvp if I want to go after France). We sort of talk about working together against France - I mention the possibility of Wal-IRI in S03 (headed towards MAO) and he says he might help if I get into MAO. I tell France about the spring possibility of Wal-IRI but spin it as defense against a possible Italian Spa-MAO (whether a move or a retreat). I ask France which army he’s removing (Pic/Par) but he doesn’t answer. Germany have some discussions about what might happen in the spring (Den-Swe).

So the build is F Lon.

Spring 1903
Russia removes A Stp, France removes A Pic, England builds F Lon, Turkey builds F Smy, Austria builds A Tri, and Germany builds A Kie.

France and I don’t talk much save for that he’s okay with Wal-IRI if I want. He talks about potentially trying to work with Italy to slow down Austria.

Austria and I have some conversations about Germany - Austria offers to help me attack him when I’m ready and notes France’s extreme trust.

Italy is trying to convince me to go hard at France… but I tell him I’m only moving Wal-IRI this turn and we’ll see what happens later. Italy wants Germany’s help against Austria but doesn’t have high hopes now.

Not much with Turkey except minor talk about A/E/T.

Russia says he’s giving up on the south (not what I wanted to hear, this probably closes off Moscow forever) but he’s willing to support Den-Swe. It takes a while to confirm it, but I do.

Germany and I talk about what’s going on around the board. We talk about an attack on France, and I note that that would give Germany three enemies (A/F/R). Long story short, we agree to play a rotation of units - Den-Swe (supported by Russia!), Swe-BAL, BAL-Den. I think about stabbing here and playing NTH-Den but discard the idea as being premature. We talk about Belgium and Germany decides he wants to keep it. He’s worried about how I feel about it and I tell him (truthfully) that I’m a little disappointed (don’t know where my next build is coming from) but that it’s cool. Since NTH isn’t moving to Bel, I decide to follow up with NTH-SKA (it gives me options to pivot in the Autumn) and Lon-NTH. I honestly don’t remember if I meant to not tell Germany about this or just forgot.

The moves are: Wal-IRI, Nwy S Den-Swe, NTH-Ska, Lon-NTH

Post Spring 1903/Autumn 1903
Russia supports me into Sweden. All of the Germany stuff goes as planned. Italy does not move out of Spain. Turkey appears to stab Austria and walks unopposed into Moscow. Austria moves into Tunis. Germany stays put in Bel and Hol and France stays put in Paris. France helps Italy retake Venice.

France says Italy stabbed him. Italy confirms it. This is good news for me. I float the idea of moving IRI-MAO to France. He tries to shut that down hard (something about me already knowing he doesn’t want me there). I offer help to help him against Italy if Italy doesn’t move as Italy has promised again, but he wants me to keep out. So I’m going to.

I ask Russia if he wants support back to Stp and he does, so I agree to do so. I ask him to move War-Mos to potentially block Mos-Liv, Sev-Mos with having two on Stp (because I want it for myself, of course, I don’t want Turkey to get it or, more to the point, to help Russia defend it). Not that I can’t get it eventually, but I’d like to not have the hassle. He doesn’t agree.

I ask Turkey about Greece and he says Austria let him have it to balance center counts. I note that a 7 center Turkey is way, way stronger than a 7 center Austria and commend his fantastic position (and tell him I’m already thinking about stopping him from getting Stp.)

Germany talk *a lot* this turn. I basically propose ideas about getting us (me) closer to Stp. I mention getting Bel/Hol moving east to deal with Austria. He mentions destroying a fleet. I’m not sure what he’s talking about - it turns out he’s regretting his previous fleet build. I come up with a plan for popping Denmark (we were already talking about me going back there) so he can disband it and rebuild it as an army (which would be amazing for my position) but he decides not to. He asks for NTH-NWG to DMZ NTH. I tell him it’s likely but I’ll think about it… and as I’m thinking about it, I don’t like the possibility of Den-NTH, NTH-Lon… so I decide to move back to Yorkshire to be able to at least force a guess of Lon/Edi in case I get stabbed. I also think I ask for a move of BAL-GOB to help with Stp but he declines because he needs BAL to deal with Ber.

The moves: IRI H, NTH-Yor, Den-Swe, Nwy S GOB-Stp, Swe-Fin

Post Autumn 1903/Winter 1903
France doesn’t go for Rome, and Italy indeed stabs France *again* and stays in Spain! I love this. I can lay it on pretty thick now - which I do, noting France’s failure and asking again if I can help. France agrees and asks me to go to MAO, which I certainly will do in 1904 when we get there. Russia doesn’t yet remark on my moves. Germany notes NTH-Yor. I explain the stab I was worried about and that my move was defensive. He says it might be overkill but also notes that NTH is a hard space to DMZ and that my move might have been a good idea after all. He also notes that all Italy’s units held (which I didn’t realize). Italy claims a misorder. Austria correctly defended Rum but didn't get anything else because France helped Italy. So builds this turn are Austria -1, Turkey +2.

Spring 1904
Austria removes Silesia and Turkey puts down two armies in Con and Smy.

So what do I want to do this turn? Not much talk with France, so IRI-MAO is set.

I think I have two options in the north - try for Nwy S Fin-Stp or slow play it with Nwy-BAR, Swe-GOB. Turkey makes comments about keeping me out and keeping me from making progress even if I get in (and pushing me towards France or Germany). I tell him I have ideas (maybe France) but tell him I need to see what happens this turn first. That tells me, though that Nwy S Fin-Stp probably won’t work, so it will be the latter. Italy and I talk quite a bit and I also tell him something similar. I don’t know if it’s now or after the moves but Russia notes my aggression with some humor. I try to respond back with some humor.

Austria and I talk a little bit but it’s mostly fluff. Austria says the WT must have known about the stab in Greece. I tell him Turkey said Austria let Turkey have Greece and that’s the extent of my knowledge. I ask if Austria is in revenge mode (I want him to be) and Austria seems to be in turtle mode. Austria was surprised about Turkey’s builds, that was interesting.

Germany and I talk quite a bit more - he’s worried about a stab. I try to address those concerns. He wants both an empty ENC and NTH - that feels like a lot. I tell him here that I had wanted F/I to get tangled up and for neither to make progress (which I note is happening). I propose a set of moves, nothing is agreed on. Germany doesn’t think his fleets will go west against France. I propose another set of moves involving a bounce in NTH and a convoy from Kie-Liv. I don’t get a response, note that I’m a little weirded out.

Moves: IRI-MAO, Fin-Stp, Nwy-BAR, Swe-GOB, Yor-NTH.

Post Spring 1904 / Autumn 1904

As expected, Turkey protects Stp. I slide right on into MAO. Italy does finally move out of Spain into WMS. France’s two fleets are still in GOL and TYS. Austria gets kicked out of Rum and retreats to Ukr. Germany heads east (which I like) but also moves into Livonia - I’ll need to make sure he’s not there to help protect Stp.

I immediately note to Germany and Italy that I’m not out for Belgium. Germany’s on side and a stab of Belgium would not be worth it this turn, not with what other things I’m thinking about doing… I make a passive mention to Germany of Liv not supporting Stp and already note that it looks like we might be headed or E/G/T. I also tell Germany I’m going west soon and that we can clear things out in Scandy. We talk about France - he tells me France is nervous and I tell him France should be nervous. Germany thinks France is important right now. I reply with that I’m not sure France is. I tell him that my plan for this turn is to stab France by taking Por, build F Lvp and F Lon and the fight is on… and France’s fleets are in weird places so I think I’ve got a pretty darn good shot at Brest in 05 and I say so to Germany. I propose that I get Por/Spa/Bre and that Germany gets Bel (even though he already has it, it’s kind of French), Par, and Mar. I tell Germany that this might be the only shot that we have at this.

France and I talk about Italy and France was previously thinking I’d move to Por to keep Italy out but France doesn’t need that now… I tell him that Italy suggested I move to Naf but I don’t like that idea and I’ll just hang out in MAO.

Turkey asks me to take Stp with a fleet. I decline but know that if my army gets there it probably isn’t going anywhere and that I’ll have to grow in other ways.

Italy and I talk, he suggests I come to Naf, I’m not sure that’s what I want. I hint at an attack on Por and tell him I don’t want France in WMS at the end of the turn, but it’s not clear if Italy will stay there.

If France stays out of WMS, I’ll have Por, ENC, Lvp, and Lon. ENC-MAO next turn will be unopposed and with Lon-ENC I’ll have a good shot at Brest in ‘05… Germany could stab me and take Sweden this turn but I’m going to ride the tiger for now…

Moves: MAO-Por, NTH-ENC, GOB & BAR S Fin-Stp.

Post Autumn 1904/Winter 1904

Well, that all worked out peachy keen… France did not move to WMS. Germany did not stab. Germany helped Austria get Warsaw… and Russia is eliminated. Turkey is +1, England is +2. Germany is still keeping an army around to protect the lowlands. Turkey helps Italy take back Tunis from Austria (who disbands instead of retreats).

I apologize to France.

No reason not to continue with the plan:

Moves: Build F Lvp, F Lon.

Spring 1905
The west is a pretty given thing - Por-Spa, ENC-MAO, Lon-ENC, Lvp-IRI. I think France will move Gas-Bre but I’m not sure what Spain will do - if he follows to Gas I’ll be in Spain, I don’t think that’s a bad thing. France doesn’t react much to the stab. I float the idea of Pie-Mar to Italy. I talk tactics with Germany, tell him what I’m planning and how I think France might react. Germany wants to move to War but wants Austria out of the way so we talk about Stp S War-Mos. I think this is fine and agree (not sure it will work) and Germany and I agree to a bounce in Sweden.

Moves: Por-Spa, ENC-MAO, Lon-ENC, Lvp-IRI, Stp S War-Mos, GOB-Swe.

Post Spring 1905/Autumn 1905
France does indeed pivot back west but keeps Spain in place. Italy doesn’t move to Marsellies but does kick Turkey out of ION. Germany covers Belgium. The support to Moscow works, Germany gets into Warsaw. Austria pushes back into Rum… but can he hold it? Turkey could retreat to TYS (wouldn’t that be *spicy*) but he retreats to AEG (and Sev and BLA).

Germany and I arrange another bounce in Sweden. Austria asks if the S05 Sweden bounce was arranged. I say it was. Austria doesn’t ask me to support Moscow. Italy and I don’t really have discussions of any substance, I merely note the lack of aggression towards Mar. Turkey and I talk about Moscow but it sounds like he might have other priorities this turn.

So now it comes down to tactics. ENC S MAO-Bre so that WMS can’t tap MAO to save Brest. IRI can try to backfill MAO but I have a feeling Spa-Por will happen again so I can’t guarantee IRI-MAO. I’ll move Por-Spa again just in case he goes Spa-Gas to try to keep two on Brest. I decide to have Stp hold (not sure what else I want to do with it) and move BAR back to Nwy just because it feels like that might be a better place for that fleet (to keep an eye on NTH). I’m still nervous about Den-NTH.

Moves: Por-Spa, ENC S MAO-Bre, IRI-MAO, BAR-Nwy, Stp H

Post Autumn 1905/Winter 1905
As expected, France moves WMS-MAO (and Spa-Por) so I get bounced out of MAO which will slow me down a bit. There’s no aggression from anyone else towards France. Turkey takes Rumania back and Austria retreats back to Galicia. Italy tries a convoy to Greece that doesn’t work. Germany is +2, France is -1, Turkey is -1, Austria is -1, England is +1.

I’m thinking about building an army. It would be nice to get one into, say, Gascony, but one army isn’t enough to take Paris. I think I can build a fleet and still make progress. Not much conversation with anyone other than telling Germany I’m building a fleet and he tells me he’s building two armies.

Moves: Build A Lon

Spring 1906
Germany does build his two armies. Turkey removes BLA, Austria removes Moscow. France removes GOL which I was hoping for and I like.

Germany and I arrange bouncing both our fleets. I’m always on the lookout for a stab, of course, but Germany is playing pretty cautiously and I don’t see a good one. Besides, there’s still enough of France to deal with. Germany asks if I want Moscow. I think about it, but I worry about being able to keep it long term, so I pass. Turkey tells me he’s not sure he’s going to take it this turn and we set up a DMZ of Livonia.

So what about France? I think it’s as simple as forcing my way into MAO and bouncing Brest and work towards Spain.

Moves: Por-Spa, IRI S Bre-MAO, ENC-Bre, Lon-ENC, Nwy-Swe, GOB-BAL, Stp H

Post Spring 1906/Autumn 1906

No issue with any of my moves. Turkey does move to Moscow and supports Italy into Trieste. Germany moves west a little bit with Kiel into Ruhr. Austria’s in trouble.

Warsaw is vulnerable now - I mention it to Germany and ask if he wants me to tap Moscow to prevent Mos S Gal-War and he says sure. We arrange our bounces. I tell Turkey I’m tapping Moscow but that I’m not trying to take it and only protecting Warsaw.

Italy asks me about what I think about solo potential for G/T (as wanting to be alive for a draw result). I say that G is across the MSL but is going to be blocked soon without a stab of England (and that stab will not be easy). Turkey is not across and is about to run into the wall of Germans so will have to go west through the Med (and that’s through Italy). I suggest that Italy may need to hide in Mar or Tun. I decide I’m going to go to Naf to outflank France (instead of going to Gas since Gas can be tapped) to set up for 1907. I’m guessing it will work because France is more than likely going to have WMS S Spa. I tell Italy I’m going to Naf and he’s not thrilled but I assure him it’s for France and not for him.

Moves: MAO-Naf, Por-Spa (sc), IRI-MAO, ENC-Bre, Lon-ENC.

Post Autumn 1906/Winter 1906

All my moves are fine. Austria is eliminated. Italy is +1, Turkey is +3 and now leads the board at 10. Italy builds F Nap (good against Turkey, not great for me) and Turkey builds F Smy, F Con, A Ank. Also not great for me.

Spring 1907
Germany asks me about solo potentials as does Turkey (who is following up about Germany’s question to Turkey as well.) I write a pretty long piece on what I think is going on and the summary is as follows:

Turkey is solid but far away from the MSL. He can probably push Germany back but getting his 18th center is going to be difficult as Germany can block the middle and England will probably be in time to block Por/Spa/Mar.

Germany is across the MSL but it’s tenuous, Turkey could push him back. Even if Turkey doesn’t, Germany has to stab England (Den-NTH, NTH-Edi) but that’s not going to be easy and it might give Turkey an opportunity to get Ibirea.

England is strong but not as solid as Turkey (see the North Sea above) but that’s really his only weakness. England stabbing Germany is probably easier than the reverse but can England get all the way to Munich and also take an 18th without Turkey getting ahead of him?

Italy may sneak into the draw, depending on whether or not I’m forced to defend him in Tunis (or Mar).

In any case, Germany and I discuss and agree to our usual bounces.

As far as France goes, I realize (and I might have previously, don’t remember for sure) that the only way I can guarantee Spain is Por S MAO - Spa, Naf-WMS… and the issue is that France can play WMS-MAO and that will end up being all sorts of trouble. So I go again for a positional play and decide to just bump him out of WMS.

Moves: MAO S Naf-WMS, Por-Spa, ENC-Bre, Lon-ENC, Nwy-Swe, GOB-BAL, Stp H.

Post Spring 1907/Autumn 1907

All my moves are good, France retreats to GOL. Otherwise, Turkey helps Germany into Trieste. Not sure what I think about that. Germany finally moves to Burgundy and I ask him about it. I make a pretty long pitch to Germany that he should attack Paris instead of Mar, he seems to agree. We set up the usual bounces. Italy and I talk a little bit, he makes a push to have me stab Germany, I brush it off. Not much else around the board otherwise. I’m planning on getting into Spain with MAO S Por-Spa (sc), Naf-GOL. Looking forward, my build will probably be F Lvp… and I realize that maybe Lon-Wal is better than it bouncing in ENC again. Then I can go to IRI and NAO in 1908 and be set up to funnel everything south.

Moves: MAO S Por-Spa (sc), Naf-GOL, ENC-Bre, Lon-Wal, Nwy-Swe, GOB-BAL, Stp H

Post Autumn 1907/Winter 1907
I get Spain but Italy surprises me and takes WMS (and lets Turkey into the Ionian). I retreat to Naf. Germany finally moves on France and is set up to take Paris next turn. England is +1, Germany is +1, France is -1.

Germany notes that Italy’s move was unexpected. Italy claims he’s throwing to Turkey and that it was Turkey’s idea (I’m suspicious of this). I ask Turkey about it and Turkey claims it’s not true. No idea, it may not really matter in the end. In any case, I build F Lvp…

Moves: Build F Lvp
Spring 1908
Germany builds another army. We talk about how he’s going to take Paris and agree on Bur S Pic-Par. I tell him I’ll tap Gas. We agree on the usual bounces. I note that Italy in WMS could work with France and make me guess on defending Spain or Brest. I ask Italy if I need to tap WMS to ensure that I keep Spain safe. He asks if Tunis is safe. I tell him I’m not concerned with it. He asks for support of WMS-Tun, I happily agree. Not much else for discussion around the board. I have the fleet in Spain hold to protect it.

Moves: Naf S WMS-Tun, Spa (sc) H, MAO-Gas, ENC-Bre, Lvp-NAO, Wal-IRI, Nwy-Swe, GOB-BAL, Stp H.

Post Spring 1908/Autumn 1908
Germany takes Paris which is destroyed. He sets up to take Venice. Turkey moves east.

Germany notes that he’ll get Paris and Venice and that puts him at 11 and offers me Mar to keep parity. I propose he support Spa-Mar and he agrees. We talk about solos and Turkey wanting to keep things interesting. Germany notes he’s been on the lookout for a solo opportunity and I tell him I wouldn’t expect anything else from good players. We set up the usual bounces again. Italy asks about Mar and I tell him that Germany and I have agreed that I will get it. Italy is trying to be really positive about getting me on side.

Not much to say about what I’m doing other than advancing all the fleets (except Naf which will hold, no need to move it to WMS… and NAO stays just in case) and I’ll protect Bre one last time.

Moves: Naf H, Spa-Mar, MAO-Spa (sc), IRI-MAO, NAO H, ENC-Bre, Nwy-Swe, GOB-BAL, Stp H

Post Autumn 1908/Winter 1908
The big news of the turn is that Turkey stabs Germany and takes Trieste. Turkey says he wants to keep things interesting. It doesn’t really matter, I don’t think, but oh well. France is eliminated. Turkey is +2, England is +1, Italy is -1.

I take another hard look at the board and ask myself if I want to stab and go for the win… and, upon reflection, I just don’t see it. I know I can probably cook the low countries and Denmark pretty easily, but Munich… sigh. Paris too would be tricky for a while. So I tell Germany I’m building another fleet. He worries about Turkey and I tell Germany how easy it would be to stop Turkey in the middle of the board (and I’m certain I can stop him in the south.)

Moves: Build F Lon

Spring 1909
Italy removes Apulia, Turkey builds A Smy and A Con.

Italy asks if I’m working to prevent Turkey from getting a solo. I am, so I say yes. Germany and I discuss options but it comes back down to just the bounces. Not much else. Move more fleets forward - Italy could bounce the move to WMS but I don’t think he will. I’m going to move London to Yorkshire for defense.

Moves: Nwy-Swe, GOB-BAL, Stp H, ENC-Bre, NAO-MAO, Naf S MAO-WMS, Mar S Spa-GOL, Lon-Yor

Post Spring 1909/Autumn 1909
Germany protects Belgium (nope, not stabbing). All of my moves work but nothing much on the board changes.

No comms with Turkey this turn. I tell Italy I’m not going for Tunis. Nothing else much of substance is said - we’re getting close to the end. My moves aren’t going to be much, not much to do.

Moves: MAO-Spa (sc), Naf S WMS S GOL S Mar H, Nwy-Swe, GOB-Bal, Yor H, Stp H

Post Autumn 1909/Winter 1909
Turkey makes an interesting move to Prussia. Germany moves to Ruh and Mun. Italy rotates fleets around. No supply centers change hands.

Spring 1910
Turkey comes with a proposal for a 2-way E/T draw and, barring that, a 3-way E/G/T draw. I politely say no to the 2-way and while I wasn’t originally intending to eliminate Italy, it’s hard to say no to that. So I agree. I propose to Turkey that I get Tunis, he gets Naples, and Germany gets Rome. Then we draw. He agrees. Turkey says he’ll tap TYS to help me get Tunis. I tell Germany about this plan and he’s also somewhat meh about eliminating Italy but seems to agree. I give him thoughts on how to take Rome. We have some discussions about what our fleets should do and it doesn’t get quite organized.

Italy asks for WES-TYS with Spain holding - I agree but have no intention to do that. I’m going to tap TYS myself, just in case Turkey doesn’t for some reason.

Moves: Nwy-Swe, GOB-Bal, Yor H, Stp H, Bre-MAO, Naf S WMS-Tun, Spa-WMS, GOL-TYS, Mar H

Post Spring 1910/Autumn 1910
Germany does not move to Tuscany as requested/suggested and instead takes Trieste back (which he can’t hold due to the retreat of Tri-Alb). I get Tunis. I apologize to Italy, but again it was hard to resist. Itay, though, will survive one more year. Sigh, I was hoping this would be over. Germany agrees to move to Tus and back from Tri to Vie. Germany also did not put the usual bounces in - I apologize over our confusion and say I’ll just move back this year… but if Turkey had moved to Livonia, he could have taken Stp in the fall and that might have gotten ugly? Maybe not since I should be getting a build and then wouldn’t have to disband anything - and now he can’t take Tunis from me.

Moves: Naf S MAO-WMS, GOL & Tun S WMS-TYS, Yor H, Swe-Nwy, BAL-GOB, Mar H, Stp H

Post Autumn 1910/Winter 1910
Germany moves to Tuscany this time. Italy’s on the block. England is +1. How about another fleet, why not?

Moves: Build F Lon.

Spring/Autumn 1911
Not much to say here other than we complete the destruction of Italy in the Spring, not much happens in Autumn, then we draw.

Postgame
My Ghost Rating gets a bump. I’m quite surprised that I’m the highest rated player left. I hadn’t really done much thinking about who might be playing who but I’m not surprised (due to some of the press) that Wusti was Austria (based on a game we played together previously). Otherwise, I had no idea. I find it kind of funny that cormorant was Italy again (as he was in the 2023 GR Challenge game we both played in).

In the early game, I remember having the weird feeling early on where it seemed like I had no enemies - every neighbor wanted to work with me and relations seemed fine with those who weren’t neighbors. Germany and I did have a pretty good working relationship - I’m glad that I was able to overcome his qualms about working with England. When the WT sort of coalesced, I was still leaning towards E/G over E/F for two reasons. The first was I just felt like I had a better vibe with Germany in general. The second was that I felt like a stab from Germany would be less likely. I really had no problems with France at all. The key was when Russia allowed Turkey into Moscow instead of blocking it - I knew I couldn’t make progress down that road in a WT at that point and so had to choose between F/G. The fun part was the wandering fleet that eventually became a stab - I asked France for every single thing it did except for the move to Por and he agreed to all of them - that’s what Italy’s shenanigans with France bought me.

I kept an eye out for a stab on Germany and never really saw one that made sense. Otherwise, it was “keep Turkey from winning” which I knew Germany and I coud do.

Good game everyone!

[Hamilton Brian]

Very good and comprehensive writeup, @DougJoe. Thanks for putting that energy in to it. I'm too ADD to try that for "regular" games as opposed to our School of War games. If anyone hasn't been to our game board to read my write up, I'll post it here.

The perspective is that of Germany and being part of the ETG draw.

I am going to break this write-up into two sections. The first will be me and my playstyle. The second will be around me as Germany.

In the early game, I really try to push out a lot of press. How I do that fluctuates. It can be me sending out jokes. it can also be serious. It just depends on my mood at the time but I use the replies I get to start to generate my "likely to/likely not to" work-with lists. They're not hard and fast because the game requires flexibility and malleability, but they are a starting point for me. I also lean into the players that respond frequently, but again, not a hard fast rule as I can get busy, complacent without meaning to, etc. I also tend to float out ideas of triples or other alliances just to see which one picks up traction. I then measure that with the level of communication. I hoped that my general responsiveness during the game toward allies was clear and concise. With adversaries I tend to take a more equivocating tone. With England and Turkey, every turn was a repeat of our bounces, move, and necessary clarifications. I also hoped that my responses were read positively. I've been in games where the person I stabbed flips out and loses their shit. I don't like being on the receiving end of that, so when Turkey stabbed I wanted to ensure my response was more positive and congratulatory.

Now as Germany, I have clear preferences. I usually have a hard time working with Russia. It's a complicated position. I think Turkey is my favourite ally, so I leaned in to that at the start of the game, and I feel we built a pretty good relationship. As Germany, I loathe England and will generally choose France over England. That corner position AND the need for fleets is a bad thing for Germany, imo. However, I got along quite well with DougJoe (England) and it made eliminating France palatable. It also helped that they were very amenable to building almost solely fleets so I felt comfortable with that arrangement.

What I didn't include in my original post on our board.

There was early conversation about a central triple but I was hedging on that for as long as I could, which upset Austria. They let their feelings be known when they opted to send an army to Silesia. This ultimately created a situation for Turkey to make that first move against them, which was something I was encouraging. Italy was an amenable ally to a point; there were suggestions I made for moves, that if they had taken, would have created a different set of situations and it might have seen me stick with them long-term.

[DougJoe]

Now that all the games are over I wanted to say thanks again to all of those who participated in this little event. At this time I do plan on doing a 2026 version ( probably with similar timelines) so keep your eyes open round Oct/Nov for sign-ups.

[UnknownHero]

Thanks DougJoe and Hamilton Brian for your summaries!

Here is a recap of my thoughts during G2, which I played as Turkey.

1901

I don't play a lot of press, usually you will see me in gunboat games. I find I struggle to know how to start the initial conversation, as most players seem to use the same, vague, noncommittal but friendly approach. I did the same to start this game.

Austria seemed annoyed by the vague pleasantries that apparently he was getting from both me and Russia, and bluntly said that he needed to focus on survival. He wanted early commitment, not vague plans to do something later on. My instant reaction to Austria's message was that he would be hard to work with, but I quickly realized that I appreciated the bluntness and found the approach more genuine and trustworthy. Russia was also friendly and extremely polite but wanted me to commit to leaving the Black Sea empty (after an initial bounce). Then Italy offered to take Tunis with a fleet if I could credibly convince him I wouldn't build F Smyrna.

So I decided to communicate with moves like I would in gunboat and moved Smyrna to Armenia. This set the stage for an A/T.

1902-1903

The A/T continued successfully against Russia through Spring 1903, while Italy got tied up with Austria and France, leaving me alone. Austria was good to work with and let me take Greece to balance the center count (this wasn't actually a stab yet). Russia also let me walk into Moscow. This sudden success, bringing me to 7 centers by Spring 1903, got me examining solo avenues. My original intention with the A/T was to keep it going for a while, at least until I could get past the stalemate line. But a WT had developed in the West, making getting across the line more tricky. If Austria and I continued to dominate the south, it would give the WT a reason to stay together and deny us progress past the stalemate line. I really wanted to see some chaos in the north that I could take advantage of, but I didn't want to be too obvious in my press.

Late in the phase I finally decided to go with stabbing Austria. I felt the only way I would ever get past the stalemate line was if the WT broke up, and I felt some chaos in the south would embolden that. Ideally, Germany and England would get into a conflict, and I could punch through Austria fast enough to snag Munich while Germany was looking north. Or, I could work with Germany to keep Austria busy while I struck out at Italy to try and stretch through to France.

At this point I realized Austria likely suspected the possibility I would stab for Rumania. I tried to get Italy to tap Galicia for me, which would guarantee me the build.

When the fall 1903 moves went through, it turned out Italy had somehow submitted all holds, which meant I didn't get Rumania. My stab ended up as a bit of a flop. I was still in a better position than Austria, but not good enough to make any quick progress. The whole plan to punch through Austria to get to Germany before anyone was the wiser didn't look so possible anymore.

1904-1905

I pressed on and attacked Austria, but my units were not set up well for a land attack, and I struggled to make progress. I helped Italy kick Austria out of Tunis, but then he wouldn't let me keep Ionian. England put an army in St.P and then helped Austria get Moscow while Germany took Warsaw. England stabbed France, but Italy was in the way so I couldn't take advantage.
My solo hopes had withered to a thin possibility at this point, but I didn't think Austria would forgive me for the stab to allow a resurrection of the old plan, so I kept on hammering away at Austria, hoping that just maybe England would stab Germany or something. I didn't want to be obvious in my press that I wanted England and Germany to fight, as I feared that might have the opposite effect.

1906

At this point, I wanted to still pursue the solo option, even if chances were slim, but I knew that it was almost certainly futile. Life was also busy at this point and I wasn't willing to devote so much attention to the game. Italy, Germany and I worked together to eliminate Austria this year.

1907

In 1907 I chose to build fleets and go after Italy. France was falling to England and Germany and I figured the ending would be a E/G/T draw.

1908-1909

In 1908 I got stuck in the Ionian and couldn't make progress against Italy without time or help. I reminded myself to never give up on trying for a solo, as I recently survived a game where the winner soloed by being extremely patient and unrelenting as long as a complete stalemate line was not fully formed. I figured my last ditch attempt was to stab Germany and hope that he made some crucial error that would allow me to get into Munich and Berlin. Tunis and St.P seemed even more out of reach, so that was the last remaining option. I did a sneaky stab on Warsaw by taking advantage of a planned bounce, and took Trieste as well. All I accomplished in 1909 was get into Galicia and Prussia, and Germany did not make any crucial errors.

1910-1911

At this point I gave up on getting into Germany by brute force. I had one last option to improve on a 3 way draw outcome. I pitched to England the idea of a 2 way draw. If we carefully planned our moves, we could maintain protection against a solo attempt by the other. It would have taken forever, but I felt this could have worked (with the upside that it would be easier for me to solo if England tripped up than the other way around). However, England wasn't up for that ordeal just to cut Germany out of the draw, and we agreed to just cut out Italy and call it a day.

The game ended in a 3-way E/G/T draw.


Final thoughts:

This was a fun press game, though I had less energy for press later on and unfortunately my effort level dropped. I enjoyed the player group I ended up in. Russia was extremely polite even as I repeatedly stabbed him. Austria was good to work with as I appreciated the straightforward communication style. In hindsight, I regret the stab on Austria, it really didn't do me any good. My poor execution of the stab is partly to blame, as was my excessive fixation on the threat of the WT. Italy managed to hang in for a long time playing a tough Italian position. England and Germany were a strong alliance, very agreeable to communicate with, and very effective at making sure I had no chance at crossing the stalemate line at any point in the game. Unfortunately I didn't have as much communication with France as I probably should have, though we never really got close enough on the map to really effectively interact.

[Wusti]

Thanks for your views guys. My perspective as Austria:

I don't like playing Austria and never have - most especially in a full press game.

As a result I did push pretty hard to get more than token commitment early on, and my survival was indeed dependant on it. My first impressions were that Russian press was really arrogant and turned me off working with him from the get go, and it never got better. I had never tried an A/T before, mainly given its known difficulties, but I figured why not give it a shot and see how it goes.

Early on we worked well together and kept all of our commitments. Italy had agreed to go West, which was ideal, but Italy had probably the most annoying press of anyone in the game with constant press about random stuff and then telling me repeatedly about stuff he had said to others, that should've been strictly confidential. I lost all faith in him and anything he had to say as a result.

As England and Germany know, I probed a lot about the WT and the obvious weakness of France where he had opened himself up to you, but you never bit until it was too late. I was well aware that the A/T needed the risk of a WT to disappear to keep it alive, and my early rapid growth on opening would generate some concern. I really like the way England handled his press and the game throughout actually - very deft, even if I wasn't quote so pleased with his conservative moves.

Ultimately, the moment Turkey took Mos I knew it was done. In Spring 1903 I even told England I expected it to happen and that that phase was the inflexion point for the end of the A/T.

At this stage my survival would be based 100% on how the West reacted. Germany and I didn't see eye to eye early, and my blunt "forthright" press style probably didn't help me any.

My tactic was to turtle against Turkey, and try to get him to break by using Germany to push me into his territory with the promise of giving the centres behind me to Germany to shrink Turkey until he came back to the table.

Ultimately nobody could attack him except through or with me, but clearly my arguments fell short. Not surprising as it was a hail mary in the end.

I think for me, I will never do another A/T again, because all the risk lies with the Austrian, and it is too easy to be stabbed or caught in between as the meat in the sandwich.

My question mark is what Italy's strategy was? Just a chaos agent or ...? I've not come across someone like him before.

[DougJoe]

Thanks for your views guys. My perspective as Austria:

I don't like playing Austria and never have - most especially in a full press game.

I have yet to have a good performance in a press game as Austria. Too bad you got a power you're not fond of.

I really like the way England handled his press and the game throughout actually - very deft, even if I wasn't quote so pleased with his conservative moves.

Thanks. I did play rather conservatively - I probably tried to be friends with/disguise my attack on Russia for too long (and part of that was wanting Germany to be the bad guy so I'd have an out in case things went sideways) but France's early suggestion of going full bore at Russia kind of made me do the opposite.

Ultimately, the moment Turkey took Mos I knew it was done. In Spring 1903 I even told England I expected it to happen and that that phase was the inflexion point for the end of the A/T.

Yeah, I felt the same way about Turkey getting into Moscow. I was really hoping to get over the line there early on. Turkey at 7 that quickly had the alarm bells ringing like crazy.

I think for me, I will never do another A/T again, because all the risk lies with the Austrian, and it is too easy to be stabbed or caught in between as the meat in the sandwich.

I've been forced into the occasional A/T by necessity and had it work to some degree but it is indeed a difficult alliance to manage from the Austrian side. One general opinion that I have is that in both the E/G and A/T, the actual center counts are not indicative of the "strength" of the two countries. E and T can afford (with the right units on the board) to be a couple of centers behind G and A. I know that I used the "we need to be balanced by center count" pitch with Germany early on (and I think Turkey did it with Greece with you) to get myself a center that I might not have truly *needed*. Then again, if I hadn't pitched that, I'd have been down 7-4 and three centers is a little rough - that might have been a big enough difference for Germany to think about a stab.

My question mark is what Italy's strategy was? Just a chaos agent or ...? I've not come across someone like him before.

I'd like to see some thoughts from him as well. I was, admittedly, stringing him along at times... but then when I thought he had the opportunity to strike back at France again, he didn't.