MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

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bozotheclown
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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2621 Post by bozotheclown » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:15 am

Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:36 pm
bozotheclown wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:29 pm
Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:23 pm

Doesn't that equation change with the CWV?
Even if BunnyGo is the CWV, and the mafia do not have a tough guy, they could NK him to make it 3-1, then we would want to no-kill again to make it 2-1. Or, if the mafia do have a tough guy, it would be 3-2 with no clears.
Right.

2-1 is much better than 4-2. And we'd have a bunch more information to review.
The downside is the risk of a tough guy, but I think we have more to gain than lose.

##VOTE No-Kill

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2622 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:16 am

Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:23 pm
I guess that turns out badly if Mafia have a strongman. That is one downside. But I think I'd take that gamble considering we don't lose the game with a strongman.
I think they don’t based on fish’s guess for my role. He was a role that is good against tracker/watcher and I think he used that to guess. Meaning they likely don’t have tough guy which is only good against CWV.

Balki gets some town slip points too.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2623 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:26 am

Vote Count 5.0:

No‑Kill (3) - Balki Bartokomous, Chaqa(END), bozotheclown
Chaqa (1) - damo666
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2624 Post by bozotheclown » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:27 am

Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:34 pm
By the way, I would suggest we implement something I learned about over at Mafia Universe ("MU"), At MU, LYLO/MYLO votes lock. So the moment someone votes at that stage of the game, their vote cannot change.

We could effectively do that by insisting that the person who votes first also hammer. That way, if they are a Town player voting for a scum player, the game ends, as both scum players can hammer.

The benefit of this system, is that we learn something after every vote. So let's say we have Bozo vote first. If he votes, and hammers, then we learn that either Bozo is scum, and/or Bozo is voting for scum.

Whomever Bozo voted for would then cross with Bozo, and another player would vote next. If they vote, and the game does not end, it means that they are not a Town player voting for scum, etc.

I think it is a valuable way to run a LYLO/MYLO scenario for town. There are certainly risks, but you also gain information and I think it is an easier way for town to pull out of a hole when we have to vote correctly twice in a row.

I suggest we No Kill now, and have BunnyGo pick the LYLO/MYLO voting order for tomorrow before this day ends. Ideally, BunnyGo should have players he sees as scummier voting earlier in the order.
I did not follow this, specifically "That way, if they are a Town player voting for a scum player, the game ends, as both scum players can hammer." Do you mean if a town player is voting for another town player, both scum can hammer?

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2625 Post by Balki Bartokomous » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:32 am

bozotheclown wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:27 am
Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:34 pm
By the way, I would suggest we implement something I learned about over at Mafia Universe ("MU"), At MU, LYLO/MYLO votes lock. So the moment someone votes at that stage of the game, their vote cannot change.

We could effectively do that by insisting that the person who votes first also hammer. That way, if they are a Town player voting for a scum player, the game ends, as both scum players can hammer.

The benefit of this system, is that we learn something after every vote. So let's say we have Bozo vote first. If he votes, and hammers, then we learn that either Bozo is scum, and/or Bozo is voting for scum.

Whomever Bozo voted for would then cross with Bozo, and another player would vote next. If they vote, and the game does not end, it means that they are not a Town player voting for scum, etc.

I think it is a valuable way to run a LYLO/MYLO scenario for town. There are certainly risks, but you also gain information and I think it is an easier way for town to pull out of a hole when we have to vote correctly twice in a row.

I suggest we No Kill now, and have BunnyGo pick the LYLO/MYLO voting order for tomorrow before this day ends. Ideally, BunnyGo should have players he sees as scummier voting earlier in the order.
I did not follow this, specifically "That way, if they are a Town player voting for a scum player, the game ends, as both scum players can hammer." Do you mean if a town player is voting for another town player, both scum can hammer?
Yes, that is what I meant. Thank you. Basically, if a town player votes wrong, the game ends (just like would happen at a final vote under normal circumstances). But because of that, any time a player votes and the game does not end, we learn something.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2626 Post by bozotheclown » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:33 am

rdrivera2005 wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:15 pm
bozotheclown wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:11 pm
I am sorry about being wrong, and @bo_sox I am sorry if I underestimated whatever out of game conflict you have with ghug.
Why you picked things from an old game instead of M75?
I think this is the question I forgot to answer, sorry. I was not in M75, and although I am not certain M47 was the last game I played where bo_sox was mafia, it is the one that stands out to me. If you re-read some of it I think you will see why.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2627 Post by Balki Bartokomous » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:35 am

BunnyGo wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:16 am
Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:23 pm
I guess that turns out badly if Mafia have a strongman. That is one downside. But I think I'd take that gamble considering we don't lose the game with a strongman.
I think they don’t based on fish’s guess for my role. He was a role that is good against tracker/watcher and I think he used that to guess. Meaning they likely don’t have tough guy which is only good against CWV.

Balki gets some town slip points too.
Would you do a few things please?

1. Let us know your thoughts on the No Kill idea.
2. Let us know your thoughts on the locked-vote MYLO/LYLO strategy.
3. If you like both, then give us an order to vote tomorrow in case you are not alive. My suggestion would be to put the players who you think are the scummiest first in the order, but there is probably more strategy than that to what is an optimal order, and maybe you can think it through a bit.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2628 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:49 am

Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:35 am
BunnyGo wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:16 am
Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:23 pm
I guess that turns out badly if Mafia have a strongman. That is one downside. But I think I'd take that gamble considering we don't lose the game with a strongman.
I think they don’t based on fish’s guess for my role. He was a role that is good against tracker/watcher and I think he used that to guess. Meaning they likely don’t have tough guy which is only good against CWV.

Balki gets some town slip points too.
Would you do a few things please?

1. Let us know your thoughts on the No Kill idea.
2. Let us know your thoughts on the locked-vote MYLO/LYLO strategy.
3. If you like both, then give us an order to vote tomorrow in case you are not alive. My suggestion would be to put the players who you think are the scummiest first in the order, but there is probably more strategy than that to what is an optimal order, and maybe you can think it through a bit.
1) it’s fine
2) haven’t caught up. Dunno what you mean.
3) I really should catch up. But this sounds either crazy, stupid, or so stupid and crazy it just might work.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2629 Post by bozotheclown » Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:07 am

Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:32 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:27 am
Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:34 pm
By the way, I would suggest we implement something I learned about over at Mafia Universe ("MU"), At MU, LYLO/MYLO votes lock. So the moment someone votes at that stage of the game, their vote cannot change.

We could effectively do that by insisting that the person who votes first also hammer. That way, if they are a Town player voting for a scum player, the game ends, as both scum players can hammer.

The benefit of this system, is that we learn something after every vote. So let's say we have Bozo vote first. If he votes, and hammers, then we learn that either Bozo is scum, and/or Bozo is voting for scum.

Whomever Bozo voted for would then cross with Bozo, and another player would vote next. If they vote, and the game does not end, it means that they are not a Town player voting for scum, etc.

I think it is a valuable way to run a LYLO/MYLO scenario for town. There are certainly risks, but you also gain information and I think it is an easier way for town to pull out of a hole when we have to vote correctly twice in a row.

I suggest we No Kill now, and have BunnyGo pick the LYLO/MYLO voting order for tomorrow before this day ends. Ideally, BunnyGo should have players he sees as scummier voting earlier in the order.
I did not follow this, specifically "That way, if they are a Town player voting for a scum player, the game ends, as both scum players can hammer." Do you mean if a town player is voting for another town player, both scum can hammer?
Yes, that is what I meant. Thank you. Basically, if a town player votes wrong, the game ends (just like would happen at a final vote under normal circumstances). But because of that, any time a player votes and the game does not end, we learn something.
I see the potential benefit of this, but I am not sure it works here at 3-2 because the mafia would be taking a risk to try to end the game that way, which could lead to invalid assumptions. It could be done at 2-1.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2630 Post by Balki Bartokomous » Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:25 am

bozotheclown wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:07 am
Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:32 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:27 am


I did not follow this, specifically "That way, if they are a Town player voting for a scum player, the game ends, as both scum players can hammer." Do you mean if a town player is voting for another town player, both scum can hammer?
Yes, that is what I meant. Thank you. Basically, if a town player votes wrong, the game ends (just like would happen at a final vote under normal circumstances). But because of that, any time a player votes and the game does not end, we learn something.
I see the potential benefit of this, but I am not sure it works here at 3-2 because the mafia would be taking a risk to try to end the game that way, which could lead to invalid assumptions. It could be done at 2-1.
That’s not really a bug. Think about it more.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2631 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:43 am

starting to catch up on the day now

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2632 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:47 am

damo666 wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:29 pm
##vote Balki

I hope he's scum rather than stupid.
explain please...I'm very tired.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2633 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:47 am

bozotheclown wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:32 pm
Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:27 pm
bozotheclown wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:26 pm


I think you mean the tough guy.
Yep.

Anyway, best to No Kill considering the CWV, right?
I think it benefits town if there is no tough guy and benefits mafia if there is a tough guy, so no way to be sure.
Explain please as if I've slept only a few hours the past few nights.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2634 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:53 am

Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:34 pm
By the way, I would suggest we implement something I learned about over at Mafia Universe ("MU"), At MU, LYLO/MYLO votes lock. So the moment someone votes at that stage of the game, their vote cannot change.

We could effectively do that by insisting that the person who votes first also hammer. That way, if they are a Town player voting for a scum player, the game ends, as both scum players can hammer.

The benefit of this system, is that we learn something after every vote. So let's say we have Bozo vote first. If he votes, and hammers, then we learn that either Bozo is scum, and/or Bozo is voting for scum.

Whomever Bozo voted for would then cross with Bozo, and another player would vote next. If they vote, and the game does not end, it means that they are not a Town player voting for scum, etc.

I think it is a valuable way to run a LYLO/MYLO scenario for town. There are certainly risks, but you also gain information and I think it is an easier way for town to pull out of a hole when we have to vote correctly twice in a row.

I suggest we No Kill now, and have BunnyGo pick the LYLO/MYLO voting order for tomorrow before this day ends. Ideally, BunnyGo should have players he sees as scummier voting earlier in the order.
ummm...well, let me say again...really tired. My kid's been sleeping badly away from home, and wife is home with other kid...so I've been sleeping badly.

BUT, I'm trying to understand how this helps. Let's say:

it's 2-1. Why should one town go before another? I'm thinking back to a game where I was town in a 2-1 with scum!kgray and town!(I forget...Flum maybe?) One of the town--probably me--misread the other, the other town voted me because he had no other choice. But as neither of us hammered, we started feeling like we'd screwed up. Didn't fix it, but I almost did.

Or last game, it's 2-1. kaka has done MASSIVE work solving the game and helping bozo untunnel and understand the game. Chaqa doesn't read it or doesn't give it enough credit. He also hammers before bozo shows up to explain himself, game over.

So...

I don't get it.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2635 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:01 am

Wait...why aren't we trying to kill scum today? If we hit, it's then 4-1, and (assuming I'm CWV and there's no Tough Guy) then I have to live to KiLo at 2-1 and it's then all on me to solve.

But if we hold today, scum get to choose (again assuming I'm CWV and there's no Tough Guy) whether to sacrifice one--and which one to sacrifice--and make it 3-1 where nobody is cleared. Or to make it 3-2 with me around.

And if scum DO have a Tough Guy then they just get rid of me and it's 3-2 with no clears.

To be fair...my track record as town at KiLo is bad. But this still seems like it may be anti-town?

Why not shoot tonight?

And again...very tired. I will take no offense if you explain things like I can't reason my way out of a box; I doubt I could.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2636 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:06 am

damo666 wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:05 am
Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:59 pm
Why would you say "I cannot elaborate"?

We're at a stage where we must act correctly or we lose. Elaborate fully. On everything.
Scum may not have thought of what worries me so I don't want to 'out' it. Problem is town may not have thought of it either.

For the timebeing can we not rush a no kill.
This is both very cryptic, very creepy, very weird, and if you're scum...I'm buying you all the points. There's no way town wins from here if damo is scum. I'm never voting him.

Future Bunny: don't worry about it, just reread this post.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2637 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:07 am

bozotheclown wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:15 am
Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:36 pm
bozotheclown wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:29 pm


Even if BunnyGo is the CWV, and the mafia do not have a tough guy, they could NK him to make it 3-1, then we would want to no-kill again to make it 2-1. Or, if the mafia do have a tough guy, it would be 3-2 with no clears.
Right.

2-1 is much better than 4-2. And we'd have a bunch more information to review.
The downside is the risk of a tough guy, but I think we have more to gain than lose.

##VOTE No-Kill
Could you please elaborate as if I REALLY don't get it? Why do you think no-kill is correct tonight if we KNEW there was no tough guy, but wrong if we KNEW there was?

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2638 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:12 am

Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:32 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:27 am
Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:34 pm
By the way, I would suggest we implement something I learned about over at Mafia Universe ("MU"), At MU, LYLO/MYLO votes lock. So the moment someone votes at that stage of the game, their vote cannot change.

We could effectively do that by insisting that the person who votes first also hammer. That way, if they are a Town player voting for a scum player, the game ends, as both scum players can hammer.

The benefit of this system, is that we learn something after every vote. So let's say we have Bozo vote first. If he votes, and hammers, then we learn that either Bozo is scum, and/or Bozo is voting for scum.

Whomever Bozo voted for would then cross with Bozo, and another player would vote next. If they vote, and the game does not end, it means that they are not a Town player voting for scum, etc.

I think it is a valuable way to run a LYLO/MYLO scenario for town. There are certainly risks, but you also gain information and I think it is an easier way for town to pull out of a hole when we have to vote correctly twice in a row.

I suggest we No Kill now, and have BunnyGo pick the LYLO/MYLO voting order for tomorrow before this day ends. Ideally, BunnyGo should have players he sees as scummier voting earlier in the order.
I did not follow this, specifically "That way, if they are a Town player voting for a scum player, the game ends, as both scum players can hammer." Do you mean if a town player is voting for another town player, both scum can hammer?
Yes, that is what I meant. Thank you. Basically, if a town player votes wrong, the game ends (just like would happen at a final vote under normal circumstances). But because of that, any time a player votes and the game does not end, we learn something.
This sounds to me like the following mistake:

Say we're all choosing lots from a hat. One lot is a winner, the others are losers. Do you want to go 1st, 2nd, last? Which gives you the best odds of winning?!

The first player has the worst odds (1/4 say), and everyone else gets improved odds when they fail! So you clearly don't want to go first!

Now repeat...the next "first" player now has the worst odds (1/3) so you clearly don't want to go second!

etc. etc.

But it's wrong. Because just because you MIGHT learn something based on the first person's vote, you might just learn you lose before you vote or have a chance to judge reactions.

I don't like this plan. I don't like it as a rule (but would be willing to do it if it WERE THE RULES). I especially don't like it sprung on us late.

I won't adhere to it, and I won't participate.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2639 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:16 am

Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:25 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:07 am
Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:32 am

Yes, that is what I meant. Thank you. Basically, if a town player votes wrong, the game ends (just like would happen at a final vote under normal circumstances). But because of that, any time a player votes and the game does not end, we learn something.
I see the potential benefit of this, but I am not sure it works here at 3-2 because the mafia would be taking a risk to try to end the game that way, which could lead to invalid assumptions. It could be done at 2-1.
That’s not really a bug. Think about it more.
If you think I should reconsider...you'll have to spell it out for me.

I think I'd like to take a swing at catching scum today. But I'd like to reread the game too.

Could people (without ending) start scum hunting?

I have some candidates I'd like to research, but I'd like to see your reads too.

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Re: MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

#2640 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:20 am

BunnyGo wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:16 am
Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:25 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:07 am


I see the potential benefit of this, but I am not sure it works here at 3-2 because the mafia would be taking a risk to try to end the game that way, which could lead to invalid assumptions. It could be done at 2-1.
That’s not really a bug. Think about it more.
If you think I should reconsider...you'll have to spell it out for me.

I think I'd like to take a swing at catching scum today. But I'd like to reread the game too.

Could people (without ending) start scum hunting?

I have some candidates I'd like to research, but I'd like to see your reads too.
If after 24-44 hours of hunting we're really not happy, we can consider no-kill too...but right now, I'm not feeling it.

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