M1021 - Blessings of Lilia - GAME THREAD [hidden]

[TheFlyingBoat]

i don't remember shit from a couple games ago. what game was that?

M72. It was the game you basically did nothing besides vote for me until you voted for yourself and died.

can you link some actual posts from that? put in some effort. the only thing i remember from that game was that you were tunneled on me cause you would only read like 1 sentence from each of my posts and then scum damo jumped on that and led a dk on me.

Are you daft? I literally never voted for you that game until you voted yourself. I can't believe I have to be your baby sitter and hand hold you through this but to prevent that disaster from happening AGAIN, let's dive in.

Here I only make one post scum reading Flum before naked voting him and then spending 50 posts and 7 hours explaining why he is scum and arguing non-stop with him.

http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... FlyingBoat


Then following your attempt to kill me failing D1: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=1

You proceed to vote me and cast no other votes for D2. You also try to save scum!celaph from death with a bunch of posts and then cry and moan AFTER celaph flips scum and complain we should have killed me instead anyways despite you at certain points scum reading celaph yourself: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=2

You do the same thing for D3 even though Durga is obv scum: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=3

Then you do the same thing for all of D4 up until like 15 mins to go when you vote Chaqa: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=4

If you fast forward to D5 you'll find i finally vote for you for the first time...with one minute to go and after you self voted during EOD: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=5

[TheFlyingBoat]

and who are these 'plenty of people'

I mean for one, you? You only start to truly justify your vote for Durga a couple posts after you voted for her.

I had an actual leadup in scumreading her, whereas you had one post that could be read in a couple different ways.

still waiting on that 'plenty'

For the love of god Kak can you act normally before we policy kill you

vetoed

This is the closest thing to a lead up you had.

But beyond that:

But how about Damo here: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... er=damo666

A bunch of naked votes, most without explicit justification before or after.

If you prefer later votes Celaph votes for Durga after waffling on Durga and never giving a strong scum read: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... ser=celaph

Plenty of players like Durga or Snowy will keep almost all their internal justifications for votes private and just post blippy 10 word justifications. I tend to go longer, but even I keep some things withheld to see how players respond naturally without complete insight into my thoughts. Like this push is moronic. And I do find it funny you accuse me of not putting in effort when you refused to iso me like I told you to.

[Bonatogether]

M72. It was the game you basically did nothing besides vote for me until you voted for yourself and died.

can you link some actual posts from that? put in some effort. the only thing i remember from that game was that you were tunneled on me cause you would only read like 1 sentence from each of my posts and then scum damo jumped on that and led a dk on me.

Are you daft? I literally never voted for you that game until you voted yourself. I can't believe I have to be your baby sitter and hand hold you through this but to prevent that disaster from happening AGAIN, let's dive in.

Here I only make one post scum reading Flum before naked voting him and then spending 50 posts and 7 hours explaining why he is scum and arguing non-stop with him.

http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... FlyingBoat


Then following your attempt to kill me failing D1: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=1

You proceed to vote me and cast no other votes for D2. You also try to save scum!celaph from death with a bunch of posts and then cry and moan AFTER celaph flips scum and complain we should have killed me instead anyways despite you at certain points scum reading celaph yourself: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=2

You do the same thing for D3 even though Durga is obv scum: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=3

Then you do the same thing for all of D4 up until like 15 mins to go when you vote Chaqa: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=4

If you fast forward to D5 you'll find i finally vote for you for the first time...with one minute to go and after you self voted during EOD: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=5

1) You and I argued and you were clearly not reading my posts. I didn't say shit about votes.

2) so you did it once with an original case - but this was with a lazy case:
"That being said I do agree with you re: Durga. Her explanation after the fact seems really poor as well. Claiming you're hard to read is one thing, but lack of familiarity?"
"That being said I think Durga's shading of Bona was pretty sus ##VOTE Durga"

and then, afterwards,
"You still haven't given a good explanation of where and how bona seems off his town game and I find you faking back on a claim of lack of familiarity with his play to be odd. You've played multiple games with him." - ie, something that had been said
"Asking you to explain why you think its weird isn't explained by you repeating it three times. That's not an explanation, that's repetition" - not really an AI argument
"Once again, it's 24 hours in. I could easily just pull a Snowy and do nothing. I could park a vote seemingly at random. I could meme vote. Why would scum cell any pressure to force a vote now? It seems like you're flailing and grasping at straws in response to pressure and that doesn't seem like town!you." - shading

in short, nothing that's like the case you had on flum.

[Bonatogether]

I mean for one, you? You only start to truly justify your vote for Durga a couple posts after you voted for her.

I had an actual leadup in scumreading her, whereas you had one post that could be read in a couple different ways.

still waiting on that 'plenty'

For the love of god Kak can you act normally before we policy kill you

vetoed

This is the closest thing to a lead up you had.

But beyond that:

But how about Damo here: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... er=damo666

A bunch of naked votes, most without explicit justification before or after.

If you prefer later votes Celaph votes for Durga after waffling on Durga and never giving a strong scum read: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... ser=celaph

Plenty of players like Durga or Snowy will keep almost all their internal justifications for votes private and just post blippy 10 word justifications. I tend to go longer, but even I keep some things withheld to see how players respond naturally without complete insight into my thoughts. Like this push is moronic. And I do find it funny you accuse me of not putting in effort when you refused to iso me like I told you to.

Your damo link doesn't go to any particular post, but I think you're referring to this post.

This is just flat out ignoring that those votes were later in the day, when there really was no way to create an alternative wagon and the only options were the already existing wagons - damo, aaro, durga. It doesn't matter who you scumread the most at that point. You pick 1 of 3 choices, and if you don't like it that's on you for not doing more for alternative wagons earlier. However, you were jumping on Durga earlier on without substantive reasons, which is similar on the surface but is just different when you consider that the timing is way different.

[TheFlyingBoat]

can you link some actual posts from that? put in some effort. the only thing i remember from that game was that you were tunneled on me cause you would only read like 1 sentence from each of my posts and then scum damo jumped on that and led a dk on me.

Are you daft? I literally never voted for you that game until you voted yourself. I can't believe I have to be your baby sitter and hand hold you through this but to prevent that disaster from happening AGAIN, let's dive in.

Here I only make one post scum reading Flum before naked voting him and then spending 50 posts and 7 hours explaining why he is scum and arguing non-stop with him.

http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... FlyingBoat


Then following your attempt to kill me failing D1: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=1

You proceed to vote me and cast no other votes for D2. You also try to save scum!celaph from death with a bunch of posts and then cry and moan AFTER celaph flips scum and complain we should have killed me instead anyways despite you at certain points scum reading celaph yourself: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=2

You do the same thing for D3 even though Durga is obv scum: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=3

Then you do the same thing for all of D4 up until like 15 mins to go when you vote Chaqa: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=4

If you fast forward to D5 you'll find i finally vote for you for the first time...with one minute to go and after you self voted during EOD: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=5

1) You and I argued and you were clearly not reading my posts. I didn't say shit about votes.

2) so you did it once with an original case - but this was with a lazy case:
"That being said I do agree with you re: Durga. Her explanation after the fact seems really poor as well. Claiming you're hard to read is one thing, but lack of familiarity?"
"That being said I think Durga's shading of Bona was pretty sus ##VOTE Durga"

and then, afterwards,
"You still haven't given a good explanation of where and how bona seems off his town game and I find you faking back on a claim of lack of familiarity with his play to be odd. You've played multiple games with him." - ie, something that had been said
"Asking you to explain why you think its weird isn't explained by you repeating it three times. That's not an explanation, that's repetition" - not really an AI argument
"Once again, it's 24 hours in. I could easily just pull a Snowy and do nothing. I could park a vote seemingly at random. I could meme vote. Why would scum cell any pressure to force a vote now? It seems like you're flailing and grasping at straws in response to pressure and that doesn't seem like town!you." - shading

in short, nothing that's like the case you had on flum.

You keep saying I didn't read your posts. That was false then and it was false now however many days later. I was clearly largely on point with my reads and my analysis of how that game went. You clearly were not.You were blinded then by some weird vibe you picked up on me and you are in the same headspace now. That much is obvious to anyone with eyes.

And ultimately if we're being honest, with the benefits of hindsight, large parts of the case against Flum were just me yelling at him for lying about the trust tell in different ways and responding to his ad hoc defenses and him getting frustrated and looking bad because of that pressure. Which honestly wasn't that different from my push on Durga. It was me pressuring Durga for a bad case on you and her getting frustrated in ways that looked bad because of that pressure. Both of those made me stick on them well past where I should have.

I am begging you for the love of god to stop this thread derailing tunnel. Unlike last game we don't have the benefit of Celaph overextending on me and Durga/Foxna getting caught tied to each other D1 to make up for it. Feel free to keep pressuring me and asking me questions and what not, but try to actually look at EoD1 or literally anything useful while you do so.

[TheFlyingBoat]

I had an actual leadup in scumreading her, whereas you had one post that could be read in a couple different ways.

still waiting on that 'plenty'

vetoed

This is the closest thing to a lead up you had.

But beyond that:

But how about Damo here: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... er=damo666

A bunch of naked votes, most without explicit justification before or after.

If you prefer later votes Celaph votes for Durga after waffling on Durga and never giving a strong scum read: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... ser=celaph

Plenty of players like Durga or Snowy will keep almost all their internal justifications for votes private and just post blippy 10 word justifications. I tend to go longer, but even I keep some things withheld to see how players respond naturally without complete insight into my thoughts. Like this push is moronic. And I do find it funny you accuse me of not putting in effort when you refused to iso me like I told you to.

Your damo link doesn't go to any particular post, but I think you're referring to this post.

This is just flat out ignoring that those votes were later in the day, when there really was no way to create an alternative wagon and the only options were the already existing wagons - damo, aaro, durga. It doesn't matter who you scumread the most at that point. You pick 1 of 3 choices, and if you don't like it that's on you for not doing more for alternative wagons earlier. However, you were jumping on Durga earlier on without substantive reasons, which is similar on the surface but is just different when you consider that the timing is way different.

For damo it was true for literally every vote he cast, the whole point was that you get to see it across multiple time points. For celaph, yes it was late, fair. My point about snowy and Durga still stands.

[TheFlyingBoat]

Oh and btw, bona, if you were to ask Durga at the time of M72 she'd probably argue to you that my case on Flum wasn't original and was just me lazily sheeping off of Jamie.

[Bonatogether]

Are you daft? I literally never voted for you that game until you voted yourself. I can't believe I have to be your baby sitter and hand hold you through this but to prevent that disaster from happening AGAIN, let's dive in.

Here I only make one post scum reading Flum before naked voting him and then spending 50 posts and 7 hours explaining why he is scum and arguing non-stop with him.

http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... FlyingBoat


Then following your attempt to kill me failing D1: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=1

You proceed to vote me and cast no other votes for D2. You also try to save scum!celaph from death with a bunch of posts and then cry and moan AFTER celaph flips scum and complain we should have killed me instead anyways despite you at certain points scum reading celaph yourself: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=2

You do the same thing for D3 even though Durga is obv scum: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=3

Then you do the same thing for all of D4 up until like 15 mins to go when you vote Chaqa: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=4

If you fast forward to D5 you'll find i finally vote for you for the first time...with one minute to go and after you self voted during EOD: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/game_st ... =day&num=5

1) You and I argued and you were clearly not reading my posts. I didn't say shit about votes.

2) so you did it once with an original case - but this was with a lazy case:
"That being said I do agree with you re: Durga. Her explanation after the fact seems really poor as well. Claiming you're hard to read is one thing, but lack of familiarity?"
"That being said I think Durga's shading of Bona was pretty sus ##VOTE Durga"

and then, afterwards,
"You still haven't given a good explanation of where and how bona seems off his town game and I find you faking back on a claim of lack of familiarity with his play to be odd. You've played multiple games with him." - ie, something that had been said
"Asking you to explain why you think its weird isn't explained by you repeating it three times. That's not an explanation, that's repetition" - not really an AI argument
"Once again, it's 24 hours in. I could easily just pull a Snowy and do nothing. I could park a vote seemingly at random. I could meme vote. Why would scum cell any pressure to force a vote now? It seems like you're flailing and grasping at straws in response to pressure and that doesn't seem like town!you." - shading

in short, nothing that's like the case you had on flum.

You keep saying I didn't read your posts. That was false then and it was false now however many days later. I was clearly largely on point with my reads and my analysis of how that game went. You clearly were not.You were blinded then by some weird vibe you picked up on me and you are in the same headspace now. That much is obvious to anyone with eyes.

And ultimately if we're being honest, with the benefits of hindsight, large parts of the case against Flum were just me yelling at him for lying about the trust tell in different ways and responding to his ad hoc defenses and him getting frustrated and looking bad because of that pressure. Which honestly wasn't that different from my push on Durga. It was me pressuring Durga for a bad case on you and her getting frustrated in ways that looked bad because of that pressure. Both of those made me stick on them well past where I should have.

I am begging you for the love of god to stop this thread derailing tunnel. Unlike last game we don't have the benefit of Celaph overextending on me and Durga/Foxna getting caught tied to each other D1 to make up for it. Feel free to keep pressuring me and asking me questions and what not, but try to actually look at EoD1 or literally anything useful while you do so.

maybe you did read them, but sure only responded to a line or so from each. also, when did we discuss how good we were at the game? I don't see the relevance of bringing up that you were so great at this game and I wasn't on point that game. Talking down to me sure isn't this great productive solver who's being talked about.

The case against flum, was, by your own description, 50 posts and 7 hours, but for against durga, it was maybe 15 posts in a much smaller conversation? This comparison doesn't make sense. Scum!tfb is capable of making 15 posts shading durga and then just never moving his vote after, but would town!tfb simply make a lame case and then never think there's a better case worth a vote? Not as I understand things.

"Thread derailing" - like there's anything ever going on. We don't know what shit scum might do that helps us, and we haven't even killed any, so saying that this argument is preventing us from finding those solves is completely non-sensical.

[Bonatogether]

This is the closest thing to a lead up you had.

But beyond that:

But how about Damo here: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... er=damo666

A bunch of naked votes, most without explicit justification before or after.

If you prefer later votes Celaph votes for Durga after waffling on Durga and never giving a strong scum read: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... ser=celaph

Plenty of players like Durga or Snowy will keep almost all their internal justifications for votes private and just post blippy 10 word justifications. I tend to go longer, but even I keep some things withheld to see how players respond naturally without complete insight into my thoughts. Like this push is moronic. And I do find it funny you accuse me of not putting in effort when you refused to iso me like I told you to.

Your damo link doesn't go to any particular post, but I think you're referring to this post.

This is just flat out ignoring that those votes were later in the day, when there really was no way to create an alternative wagon and the only options were the already existing wagons - damo, aaro, durga. It doesn't matter who you scumread the most at that point. You pick 1 of 3 choices, and if you don't like it that's on you for not doing more for alternative wagons earlier. However, you were jumping on Durga earlier on without substantive reasons, which is similar on the surface but is just different when you consider that the timing is way different.

For damo it was true for literally every vote he cast, the whole point was that you get to see it across multiple time points. For celaph, yes it was late, fair. My point about snowy and Durga still stands.

The fact that damo did it repeatedly removes the fact that it's suspicious due to the fact that it was probably some kind of pressuring or lazy sheeping. However, you tried to make a semi-original case and then just never moved.

Yes, because I didn't talk about it because I didn't see the relevance. Are you softing that you have some secret knowledge that is feeding into your reads? Or am I too moronic to understand your partial thoughts?

[pyxxy]

TL;DR:
Everyone except DeathLlama and maybe Snowy can probably ignore this post.
---

does anyone remember how pyxxy actually responded to pressure in the thread last game? bc i only remember seeing the god thread messages and I was kinda expecting him to try to end my bloodline for voting him

He usually does long wall post with a bunch of quotes and mean emojis.

Ouch. Feels like I just got soul read.

but yeah I should summarize all the random points I've made against pyxxy

[ed note: I'm adding numbers to each point for organizational reasons]

• 1) pyxxy pressured damo early on some vague meta things, but didn't really do anything to make it a wagon before immediately jumping on when it became a viable aaro cw (i think they look especially worse if aaro is scum)
• 2) they stated that their approach to this D1 was directed by aiming "to force as many interactions between people as possible right now on D1", but they didn't post in a way that is consistent with that, and also didn't really play d1 in a traditionally scumhunty way
• 3) their response to pressure has been weirder and less direct than I expected from them, but I might be biased because of how he's interacted with me specifically and the god thread messages
• 4) the recent content has been better than their d1, but still kinda fluffy and doesn't move the needle that much for me

Alright, llam8y. I feel like I'm neglecting you. Can't let our SIMP score hit the triple digits. That would just be irresponsible.

1) This is true. Something felt different about damo. Then again it's my second game ever and I really didn't get much time with damo in M73. Given more time and many more messages, I no longer feel sus on damo. I think I stated this earlier.

This is an explanation of my thoughts, not an attempt to wriggle away from an unsuccessful miskill attempt. Haha. That's me laughing. Haha. I am a Liliari town. Haha. Not a robot invader. Haha.

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2) It's my second game ever. If you want to teach me what traditional scumhunting looks like, link me some old games. It's the weekend, I can probably read a few D1s that you think would be instructive.

God I wish Bona would do SIMP analysis again.

During D1 I quoted Bona, Sabi, Durga, Snowy, Jamee, damo, TheFlyingBoat, celaph, RDR, you, and Maniac. That's 11/13. I quoted myself too if you want to give me 12/14 and curve my grade from a B- to a B.

I didn't quote aaro or Kak. Interpret that as you will.

Here's the search in case you want to double check me:
http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... user=pyxxy

I think a fair response would be "replies/quotes don't guarantee interaction/substantive posting". That's true. So let's look at every time I typed a "?" in a response to someone. That narrows it to damo, Jamee, Snowy, TheFlyingBoat, and yourself. That's 5/13. Eh. Average maybe? I'm not going to count every "?" from every person on D1, so again, interpret this as you will.

My point is, I think you made up your mind about me acting this way during D1 and you're still feeling this way about me without any real evidence to back it up.

If you want my advice, stick to my damo vote timing as evidence against me. This "didn't actually interact" argument is flimsy/untrue (subjective).

3) I'm working on it. Like I said, I didn't like how my tiff with brainbomb went down. I sent God Thread messages about how I really felt during that game. I knew it was going to happen. I watched brain fuck with Blamp and lo and behold he tried to do the exact same shit to me. But I responded early in this game about it:

pyxxy, last game you claimed that you will tear brainbomb apart (or something of the sort). The game ended before it could be done, but had you the chance how do you think you would have accomplished this?

I feel like I did accomplish it. I completely karate kid'd his scumreads on me, wash on washed right off. And then town won (in large part to your pre-death contributions, snowy ).

^I stand by this. Town won that game and I did my part by not letting brainbomb miskill me. You said everyone in God Thread seems to think I did good, so, idk. Maybe I just had beginner's luck, maybe brain went easy on me.

I would be legitimately curious how you think I did with diverting brainbomb, but that might be the kind of advice that you should give your scumlean after the game.

Anyways since you seem to have followed along with M73, here's an opinion that I'm holding rn. SAT style. M73 brainbomb : M73 BusinessLamp :: M1021 snowy801 : M1021 DeathLlama8 (that's you). Think about it.

Oh, and:

the way the aaro wagon formed gives me weird vibes tbh - is the case on him just related to the giant reads post he did?

would strongly prefer damo/tfb over aaro/durga at this point

reminder that I moved my D1 from TFB to damo, meanwhile you went from TFB

##vote tfb

@snowy, bona - please join me on tfb thanks

to....Durga? Your 3rd preference at most?

How's that for some VCA?

4) Idk what to say to this. I'm waiting on Maniac and Damo:

[Section3]

In answer to someone’s question; I never saw your vote.

My eod strategy was to say I wasn’t going to be on and then appear at last minute to disrupt any close vote scum had engineered. There was still time for others to vote after I thought I was tying it.

@Maniac: Did you decide to use this strategy before the game started? Or did you decide to do this at a certain point in the game? (if you remember)

^I would still like Maniac to answer this.
---
[Section4 aka when peterbot went down for a bit? so my post quality is gonna degrade]
@damo, what did Maniac do to move from your scumlean list to your townlean list?

Once Bona is done regreting killing Durga and trying to fill in the hole in his heart by fighting with TFB, then maybe people will respond to me. Until then I've got a bet to lose.

4.5) Is there something you want to investigate together, Llam8y? peterbot being down killed my earlier momentum but clearly I'm back on my bullshit now

N.B. / five (5) he or they works for referring to me, I'm not picky, just trying to spare anyone any uncertainty

[TheFlyingBoat]

1) You and I argued and you were clearly not reading my posts. I didn't say shit about votes.

2) so you did it once with an original case - but this was with a lazy case:
"That being said I do agree with you re: Durga. Her explanation after the fact seems really poor as well. Claiming you're hard to read is one thing, but lack of familiarity?"
"That being said I think Durga's shading of Bona was pretty sus ##VOTE Durga"

and then, afterwards,
"You still haven't given a good explanation of where and how bona seems off his town game and I find you faking back on a claim of lack of familiarity with his play to be odd. You've played multiple games with him." - ie, something that had been said
"Asking you to explain why you think its weird isn't explained by you repeating it three times. That's not an explanation, that's repetition" - not really an AI argument
"Once again, it's 24 hours in. I could easily just pull a Snowy and do nothing. I could park a vote seemingly at random. I could meme vote. Why would scum cell any pressure to force a vote now? It seems like you're flailing and grasping at straws in response to pressure and that doesn't seem like town!you." - shading

in short, nothing that's like the case you had on flum.

You keep saying I didn't read your posts. That was false then and it was false now however many days later. I was clearly largely on point with my reads and my analysis of how that game went. You clearly were not.You were blinded then by some weird vibe you picked up on me and you are in the same headspace now. That much is obvious to anyone with eyes.

And ultimately if we're being honest, with the benefits of hindsight, large parts of the case against Flum were just me yelling at him for lying about the trust tell in different ways and responding to his ad hoc defenses and him getting frustrated and looking bad because of that pressure. Which honestly wasn't that different from my push on Durga. It was me pressuring Durga for a bad case on you and her getting frustrated in ways that looked bad because of that pressure. Both of those made me stick on them well past where I should have.

I am begging you for the love of god to stop this thread derailing tunnel. Unlike last game we don't have the benefit of Celaph overextending on me and Durga/Foxna getting caught tied to each other D1 to make up for it. Feel free to keep pressuring me and asking me questions and what not, but try to actually look at EoD1 or literally anything useful while you do so.

maybe you did read them, but sure only responded to a line or so from each. also, when did we discuss how good we were at the game? I don't see the relevance of bringing up that you were so great at this game and I wasn't on point that game. Talking down to me sure isn't this great productive solver who's being talked about.

The case against flum, was, by your own description, 50 posts and 7 hours, but for against durga, it was maybe 15 posts in a much smaller conversation? This comparison doesn't make sense. Scum!tfb is capable of making 15 posts shading durga and then just never moving his vote after, but would town!tfb simply make a lame case and then never think there's a better case worth a vote? Not as I understand things.

"Thread derailing" - like there's anything ever going on. We don't know what shit scum might do that helps us, and we haven't even killed any, so saying that this argument is preventing us from finding those solves is completely non-sensical.

The point about the quality of game is to head you off at the pass before you get into a dumb tunnel you will stubbornly never leave. I think you are town!bona and that is classic town!bona behavior once it begins. My view is if I don't stop it before it starts chances are it will be GG given how slow this thread is and how comparatively smaller our margin of error is.

I mean for one, 50 was obviously an exaggeration. If you include any post that quotes or mentions flum, even obliquely, even if it wasn't directly related to pushing an attack on him, you only hit 35. More tight filters get you into the low 20s. And that was with a far more active thread and with the game basically revolving for those 7 hours along Jamie/me vs Flum. That was also with Flum engaging me far more substantively and also not using emotional ploys to get me to shut up and give her space. If you account for just the activity factors alone you'll find my push on Durga wasn't too far off in terms of number of posts from what I did with Flum.

As for not finding a better case worth a vote, I commented pretty heavily elsewhere what I thought about others and did hop around before landing on Durga. Did you even read those posts? Please, do a full ISO and then come back to me with your thoughts instead of this half-baked nonsense. To help you out here is a link to where I basically talk about my thoughts on basically each player in super short easy to read detail in response to aaro: viewtopic.php?p=297782#p297782

Here's another post where I also explain why I didn't want to vote for aaro or damo: viewtopic.php?p=297956#p297956

Your argument about thread derailing is the most absurd yet and I think shows how bad you're tunneled. The fact that we haven't killed any yet isn't surprising given it is only D2. We had one shot so far and we missed. That being said we don't have that many more shots left. We have exactly 3 miskills left assuming that there is no doc save. You are doing exactly zero analysis into what happened EoD1 or literally anything else and it is very anti-town.

[TheFlyingBoat]

Your damo link doesn't go to any particular post, but I think you're referring to this post.

This is just flat out ignoring that those votes were later in the day, when there really was no way to create an alternative wagon and the only options were the already existing wagons - damo, aaro, durga. It doesn't matter who you scumread the most at that point. You pick 1 of 3 choices, and if you don't like it that's on you for not doing more for alternative wagons earlier. However, you were jumping on Durga earlier on without substantive reasons, which is similar on the surface but is just different when you consider that the timing is way different.

For damo it was true for literally every vote he cast, the whole point was that you get to see it across multiple time points. For celaph, yes it was late, fair. My point about snowy and Durga still stands.

The fact that damo did it repeatedly removes the fact that it's suspicious due to the fact that it was probably some kind of pressuring or lazy sheeping. However, you tried to make a semi-original case and then just never moved.

Yes, because I didn't talk about it because I didn't see the relevance. Are you softing that you have some secret knowledge that is feeding into your reads? Or am I too moronic to understand your partial thoughts?

Great, well if it removes the relevance then you can see I did a similar thing with rdr as well. Or you would if you ever did an actual iso. And yes I never moved because Durga's responses to pressure made me more confident I was right, which I point out in later posts.

As for the latter what are you talking about? There is literally no secret knowledge I could have at this point. I was saying I withhold some thoughts I have about the game (as does everyone who is any good at this game) as if you tell scum every time you finding something scummy and what you're looking at they'll just fix and avoid it in the future, which makes catching them a bit harder. How do you jump from that bright flash of the blindingly obvious to there must be some secret information? As for your final question, I'll just give it the eyeroll it deserves.

[damo666]

Precis is an art form.

Laters.

PS aaro wagon was going nowhere.

Durga is divisive (sorry), Maniac is ill perceived.

No brainer.

We should kill Bona or Pyxxy today.

Both aaro and I are understandable info kills but I would be a waste and I suspect ditto aaro.

Snowy is either solid town or buddying me in an orange uniform.

2m.

Zedding

[TheFlyingBoat]

TL;DR:
Everyone except DeathLlama and maybe Snowy can probably ignore this post.
---

does anyone remember how pyxxy actually responded to pressure in the thread last game? bc i only remember seeing the god thread messages and I was kinda expecting him to try to end my bloodline for voting him

He usually does long wall post with a bunch of quotes and mean emojis.

Ouch. Feels like I just got soul read.

but yeah I should summarize all the random points I've made against pyxxy

[ed note: I'm adding numbers to each point for organizational reasons]

• 1) pyxxy pressured damo early on some vague meta things, but didn't really do anything to make it a wagon before immediately jumping on when it became a viable aaro cw (i think they look especially worse if aaro is scum)
• 2) they stated that their approach to this D1 was directed by aiming "to force as many interactions between people as possible right now on D1", but they didn't post in a way that is consistent with that, and also didn't really play d1 in a traditionally scumhunty way
• 3) their response to pressure has been weirder and less direct than I expected from them, but I might be biased because of how he's interacted with me specifically and the god thread messages
• 4) the recent content has been better than their d1, but still kinda fluffy and doesn't move the needle that much for me

Alright, llam8y. I feel like I'm neglecting you. Can't let our SIMP score hit the triple digits. That would just be irresponsible.

1) This is true. Something felt different about damo. Then again it's my second game ever and I really didn't get much time with damo in M73. Given more time and many more messages, I no longer feel sus on damo. I think I stated this earlier.

This is an explanation of my thoughts, not an attempt to wriggle away from an unsuccessful miskill attempt. Haha. That's me laughing. Haha. I am a Liliari town. Haha. Not a robot invader. Haha.

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2) It's my second game ever. If you want to teach me what traditional scumhunting looks like, link me some old games. It's the weekend, I can probably read a few D1s that you think would be instructive.

God I wish Bona would do SIMP analysis again.

During D1 I quoted Bona, Sabi, Durga, Snowy, Jamee, damo, TheFlyingBoat, celaph, RDR, you, and Maniac. That's 11/13. I quoted myself too if you want to give me 12/14 and curve my grade from a B- to a B.

I didn't quote aaro or Kak. Interpret that as you will.

Here's the search in case you want to double check me:
http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... user=pyxxy

I think a fair response would be "replies/quotes don't guarantee interaction/substantive posting". That's true. So let's look at every time I typed a "?" in a response to someone. That narrows it to damo, Jamee, Snowy, TheFlyingBoat, and yourself. That's 5/13. Eh. Average maybe? I'm not going to count every "?" from every person on D1, so again, interpret this as you will.

My point is, I think you made up your mind about me acting this way during D1 and you're still feeling this way about me without any real evidence to back it up.

If you want my advice, stick to my damo vote timing as evidence against me. This "didn't actually interact" argument is flimsy/untrue (subjective).

3) I'm working on it. Like I said, I didn't like how my tiff with brainbomb went down. I sent God Thread messages about how I really felt during that game. I knew it was going to happen. I watched brain fuck with Blamp and lo and behold he tried to do the exact same shit to me. But I responded early in this game about it:

pyxxy, last game you claimed that you will tear brainbomb apart (or something of the sort). The game ended before it could be done, but had you the chance how do you think you would have accomplished this?

I feel like I did accomplish it. I completely karate kid'd his scumreads on me, wash on washed right off. And then town won (in large part to your pre-death contributions, snowy ).

^I stand by this. Town won that game and I did my part by not letting brainbomb miskill me. You said everyone in God Thread seems to think I did good, so, idk. Maybe I just had beginner's luck, maybe brain went easy on me.

I would be legitimately curious how you think I did with diverting brainbomb, but that might be the kind of advice that you should give your scumlean after the game.

Anyways since you seem to have followed along with M73, here's an opinion that I'm holding rn. SAT style. M73 brainbomb : M73 BusinessLamp :: M1021 snowy801 : M1021 DeathLlama8 (that's you). Think about it.

Oh, and:

the way the aaro wagon formed gives me weird vibes tbh - is the case on him just related to the giant reads post he did?

would strongly prefer damo/tfb over aaro/durga at this point

reminder that I moved my D1 from TFB to damo, meanwhile you went from TFB

##vote tfb

@snowy, bona - please join me on tfb thanks

to....Durga? Your 3rd preference at most?

How's that for some VCA?

4) Idk what to say to this. I'm waiting on Maniac and Damo:

[Section3]

@Maniac: Did you decide to use this strategy before the game started? Or did you decide to do this at a certain point in the game? (if you remember)

^I would still like Maniac to answer this.
---
[Section4 aka when peterbot went down for a bit? so my post quality is gonna degrade]
@damo, what did Maniac do to move from your scumlean list to your townlean list?

Once Bona is done regreting killing Durga and trying to fill in the hole in his heart by fighting with TFB, then maybe people will respond to me. Until then I've got a bet to lose.

4.5) Is there something you want to investigate together, Llam8y? peterbot being down killed my earlier momentum but clearly I'm back on my bullshit now

N.B. / five (5) he or they works for referring to me, I'm not picky, just trying to spare anyone any uncertainty

I am reading this just to get something refreshing going after having dealt with Bona's Tunnel 2: Electric Boogaloo before I can mentally check out and watch the Arky Duke game.

1) if you no longer feel sus on damo how do you feel about aaro? What do you think EoD1 looked like and meant to you?

2) I don't think you need to worry too much about what "traditional scum hunting " is or isn't. Everyone has their own style and if it works it works, if it doesn't it doesn't. What worked for you last game seemed like a quite good style. So I think DL is concern about you scum hunting in a traditional way is off base and kind of silly.

I do think that he has a point insofar as your style this game seems different from the prior one as you seems less invested and perhaps more aloof? I felt like you largely took D1 off and D2 I haven't seen much as I've felt the thread has kinda just been me talking to snowy and the bona REEEEEEEEing at me, whereas I was hoping to see more aggressive pushes and pointed questions. Who do you view as scummy given what you've seen so far? Who do you view as particularly towny?

3) Fair enough, I think you're too dismissive of the pressure you applied to others in addition to not dying to brainbombs scatter shot, but yeah. That's an interesting point you brought up. My question for the second half of part 3 is, huh? Are you saying snowy is unfairly going after DL like brain went after Blamp (that's what I recall you describing your view of brain's play as) and someone is next or am I horribly missing your point? Because if that's the point of the analogy, I don't see it.

As for the VCA, I would love to hear DL give an explanation for his vote behavior as I would like a little more detail to support his not liking the way the wagons formed point. I am mostly willing to accept his claim he didn't want a tie to be formed with a minute left given Maniac's action, but more on the damo wagon theory would be good.


4) Agreed it would be good to hear from Maniac and Damo there. And I do find your summary of why Bona is doing what he is doing amusing. There's probably some truth there.

[TheFlyingBoat]

Precis is an art form.

Laters.

PS aaro wagon was going nowhere.

Durga is divisive (sorry), Maniac is ill perceived.

No brainer.

We should kill Bona or Pyxxy today.

Both aaro and I are understandable info kills but I would be a waste and I suspect ditto aaro.

Snowy is either solid town or buddying me in an orange uniform.

2m.

Zedding

Ok that's a decent explanation of the Durga vote. Can you explain why you think it was TvTvT (assuming you think it was if you think killing Aaro is a waste)?

Why do you want to kill Bona or Pyxxy today?

[Bonatogether]

You keep saying I didn't read your posts. That was false then and it was false now however many days later. I was clearly largely on point with my reads and my analysis of how that game went. You clearly were not.You were blinded then by some weird vibe you picked up on me and you are in the same headspace now. That much is obvious to anyone with eyes.

And ultimately if we're being honest, with the benefits of hindsight, large parts of the case against Flum were just me yelling at him for lying about the trust tell in different ways and responding to his ad hoc defenses and him getting frustrated and looking bad because of that pressure. Which honestly wasn't that different from my push on Durga. It was me pressuring Durga for a bad case on you and her getting frustrated in ways that looked bad because of that pressure. Both of those made me stick on them well past where I should have.

I am begging you for the love of god to stop this thread derailing tunnel. Unlike last game we don't have the benefit of Celaph overextending on me and Durga/Foxna getting caught tied to each other D1 to make up for it. Feel free to keep pressuring me and asking me questions and what not, but try to actually look at EoD1 or literally anything useful while you do so.

maybe you did read them, but sure only responded to a line or so from each. also, when did we discuss how good we were at the game? I don't see the relevance of bringing up that you were so great at this game and I wasn't on point that game. Talking down to me sure isn't this great productive solver who's being talked about.

The case against flum, was, by your own description, 50 posts and 7 hours, but for against durga, it was maybe 15 posts in a much smaller conversation? This comparison doesn't make sense. Scum!tfb is capable of making 15 posts shading durga and then just never moving his vote after, but would town!tfb simply make a lame case and then never think there's a better case worth a vote? Not as I understand things.

"Thread derailing" - like there's anything ever going on. We don't know what shit scum might do that helps us, and we haven't even killed any, so saying that this argument is preventing us from finding those solves is completely non-sensical.

The point about the quality of game is to head you off at the pass before you get into a dumb tunnel you will stubbornly never leave. I think you are town!bona and that is classic town!bona behavior once it begins. My view is if I don't stop it before it starts chances are it will be GG given how slow this thread is and how comparatively smaller our margin of error is.

I mean for one, 50 was obviously an exaggeration. If you include any post that quotes or mentions flum, even obliquely, even if it wasn't directly related to pushing an attack on him, you only hit 35. More tight filters get you into the low 20s. And that was with a far more active thread and with the game basically revolving for those 7 hours along Jamie/me vs Flum. That was also with Flum engaging me far more substantively and also not using emotional ploys to get me to shut up and give her space. If you account for just the activity factors alone you'll find my push on Durga wasn't too far off in terms of number of posts from what I did with Flum.

As for not finding a better case worth a vote, I commented pretty heavily elsewhere what I thought about others and did hop around before landing on Durga. Did you even read those posts? Please, do a full ISO and then come back to me with your thoughts instead of this half-baked nonsense. To help you out here is a link to where I basically talk about my thoughts on basically each player in super short easy to read detail in response to aaro: viewtopic.php?p=297782#p297782

Here's another post where I also explain why I didn't want to vote for aaro or damo: viewtopic.php?p=297956#p297956

Your argument about thread derailing is the most absurd yet and I think shows how bad you're tunneled. The fact that we haven't killed any yet isn't surprising given it is only D2. We had one shot so far and we missed. That being said we don't have that many more shots left. We have exactly 3 miskills left assuming that there is no doc save. You are doing exactly zero analysis into what happened EoD1 or literally anything else and it is very anti-town.

I reread this conversation to prevent any misunderstanding here, but I think this is you telling me that because you are good, and I am bad due to the fact that I have a tendency to tunnel, I should completely drop the fact that your vote was opportunistic. This seems completely disingenuous.

If it's not 50, then why the fuck would you say 50 if it's either in the 30s or 20s? You can't say something, then walk it back when it's pointed out that it doesn't support your argument.

"Hopping around" - you never moved your vote. Also, the post you linked almost entirely consists of commentary on another reads list. You talk somewhat about your own reads but it's not anything like considering anyone scummy in the way that you were pushing on Durga. Many of the statements are also hedged or give easy outs.

"That being said I don't like either wagon very much. Damo seems kinda townie to me based on my experience with him in prior games and I think Aaro while weird and kinda off seems not scummy." is the only thing about damo and aaro in the second post linked. Perhaps this falls under your 'ooh i'm hiding information about my reads' category.

Did you fail to learn how to read? My post says: 'ok, but the analysis that found all the stuff that you list was later, and nothing else is being posted now, so who cares'. You respond, "you're tunnelled!!! we haven't killed any scum, and you are acting in an anti-town way." Clearly, if we haven't killed any scum, we can't do the analysis to find more scum off of interactions, so this just doesn't make sense to me.

[Bonatogether]

For damo it was true for literally every vote he cast, the whole point was that you get to see it across multiple time points. For celaph, yes it was late, fair. My point about snowy and Durga still stands.

The fact that damo did it repeatedly removes the fact that it's suspicious due to the fact that it was probably some kind of pressuring or lazy sheeping. However, you tried to make a semi-original case and then just never moved.

Yes, because I didn't talk about it because I didn't see the relevance. Are you softing that you have some secret knowledge that is feeding into your reads? Or am I too moronic to understand your partial thoughts?

Great, well if it removes the relevance then you can see I did a similar thing with rdr as well. Or you would if you ever did an actual iso. And yes I never moved because Durga's responses to pressure made me more confident I was right, which I point out in later posts.

As for the latter what are you talking about? There is literally no secret knowledge I could have at this point. I was saying I withhold some thoughts I have about the game (as does everyone who is any good at this game) as if you tell scum every time you finding something scummy and what you're looking at they'll just fix and avoid it in the future, which makes catching them a bit harder. How do you jump from that bright flash of the blindingly obvious to there must be some secret information? As for your final question, I'll just give it the eyeroll it deserves.

You never moved your vote, so you simply aren't comparable to damo.

I think it's frankly just dumb to withhold thoughts. What possible benefit is there for town to not hear what everyone is thinking? This excuse lets scum act under the guise of "I have thoughts that I'm withholding, so don't question it." As for claiming that anyone who is good at this game does, I would direct you to the wikipedia page for the logical fallacy known as 'Appeal to Authority'.

[celaph]

Aaro:
He says that he only eventually switched to Durga to avoid a tie, but I think he was also doing a fair bit to encourage the Durga wagon from the side lines. In his initial reads posts he has Durga as a scum read after finding her response to learning about the day chat suspicious. The read sorta sits there for the rest of the day. With 4 hours left he puts Durga just below Damo on his list of people to kill. With half an hour to go his read seems to be furthered by her comment that his reads were meh. With 5 minutes to go with the wagons tied 5-5 between Damo/Durga with aaro at 2, he said that he said:

Specifically, I think the way that Damo this game has commented on Jamie and aaro townreading them makes me wonder if we have town damo.

I felt trapped being on the damo wagon because I didn't want to die. I'm seriously considering switching to durga but my brain is fried.

Let’s compare his stance on Durga to his stance on Damo. With 8 hours to go he puts Damo as a scum read for aggressive lurking. I don’t know if it’s fair to make comparisons between aaro’s behavior now and in M62/63, but he historically hasn’t scum read the inactivity players (yoyo, ND respectively). But also, on a reads list with a number of people he actively scum reads (Jamie w/terrible reason, Durga, TFB) why is his strongest scum read a lurker? With 4 hours left he describes damo as feeling normal which, having only seen scum damo, means scum. This reasoning is terrible though because he has no point of comparison for town Damo. A half hour later, he comments that he is bothered how damo changed his opinion on aaro moving from calling him town (for his “laughable” reads list) to looking to start a wagon on him. He votes for Damo with 3 hours to go and 2 votes on him.

Conclusions:
Aaro’s scum read on Damo feels very forced. I have no idea why he was the scummiest person on the initial reads list as a lurker. His vote on Damo was with his comments of being trapped. For one, if you’re voting for your top scum read you aren’t trapped on that wagon, you should be happy to be there. Secondly, given his experience in GTs, I expect that aaro would be know how fast votes can swing if he can make a new wagon. Given his behavior, he comes off as distancing from Damo while simultaneously pushing Damo’s counter wagon in Durga. That is rather sus and I would double down on this read if Damo flips scum. In addition to the views on aaro from yesterday, flipping the slot is kinda appealing.

In fairness to aaro, his votes were consistent with his stated reads. It’s only his justification of his reads that feels sus.

@aaro:
At what point yesterday was Damo no longer your top scum read and who became your top scum read? What made you relax on Damo and/or focus on this other person?

DL:
I think this is an honest just voting Durga to avoid ties. Consistently found the arguments against Durga’s wagon weak. Consistently advocated for other wagons. I can come back to this outside a vca post, but I DL was my strongest townread through D1. Good town here.

Jamie:
Jamie never really seemed to consider damo as a wagon choice for the day. His only substantive comment being that:

Also Damo is hard to read D1, he could be scum, he could not.

If both Jamie and Damo were both scum, I’d expect more of comment from Jamie so I expect at least one town here. Overall, Jamie seemed focused on trying to create other wagons with votes on Snowy, Kak, and Maniac. I can’t fault his efforts on this front either, he spoke to why Maniac was a good wagon multiple times while voting him before switching to Durga. I think it’s also clear why Jamie ultimately voted Durga over Damo finding her responses to his questions lacking. I don’t see a vca reason to suspect scum here so far.

@Jamie
What were your opinions of Damo at EoD1?

Snowy:
While aaro’s reasoning was faulty, Snowy’s reasoning is impossible to understand as he just says things without justification. He said that Damo was the scum push, but didn’t elaborate why. Earlier he said that Durga is probably scum. So his behavior fits his statements, but I can’t say whether those statements are generated from a towny perspective. He looks a lot worse if Damo is scum (so do I for that matter) because he saved him, but I don’t have a read to separate scum Snowy vs town Snowy.

Damo:
Damo said he voted Durga because “she might be scum”. That said, he made no explanation for why he found her to be any more likely to be scum than he found anyone else. Damo also voted aaro which he later explained as avoiding the mk a full 2 hours and 20 minutes before EoD despite having previously townread aaro. I can understand self-pres votes, but you can self pres vote in the last 5 minutes, you don’t need to do so with over 2 hours to go. Why not start a wagon on someone you actually scum read or make a case for why a different wagon is deserving of our votes. There is certainly some weird behavior for this slot right here.

@Damo
In between your town read on aaro and the time you voted him, did something in your mind change to make you think that he was likely to be scum? If so, what?

TFB/Bona:
I’m now to the Durga voters who were on Durga for quite a while. I’ve lumped them together because I think they are rather similar in a number of ways. Their voting patterns were quite similar with them both bouncing around between a couple wagons before settling on Durga and never moving. Additionally, neither really seems to seriously consider the possibility that Durga is town.

Bona feels like he found his read on Durga, was satisfied with it, and that was the conclusion of his thoughts. He makes comments like: “lack of strong opinions is a lack of a town pm”, but given that he doesn’t comment similar things when others share that they don’t have strong opinions, I don’t think that it is serving as an independent and unique aspect of the scum read and just a conf biased approach to scum reading.

TFB more continually shares new reasons for the placement of his vote. That said, either of these reasons is original and his comment based off my read on Durga’s deflection question on Bona feels like he’s forced a scum read out of something null.

Neither of these two looks great, but I think TFB looks a little worse for it.

Sabi:
My primary question is whether Sabi was around at EoD. Their last post was with 16 minutes to go before Durga’s wagon really took off. And their first post during the night was 7 minutes after the flip so it is not unreasonable to say that they were away. Assuming they were away, I don’t see anything scummy in their votes. They were unhappy with the wagons and voted off them. All that makes sense.

If they were not away for irl reasons, then I’m a little more suspicious. I wouldn’t tend to leave the game having just left my vote on a wagon where no one else was voting. Also, if they were watching the thread, why did they not push back against the Durga wagon given their previous townread?

Kak:
Why did I save him for near the end of my analysis? His writing takes so long to understand. It’s easy to call bad for town though. Please tell me his clarity improves D2.

@Kak, why did you vote Damo?

Maniac:
Don’t ask me to explain him please.

Pyxxy:
It’s rather unfortunate that Pyxxy was away at EoD, but I think the most notable thing is that he seemed content voting Damo who he initially voted to just generate conversation. That certainly comes off as someone who really didn’t care who died.

@pyxxy
Why didn’t you switch your vote off Damo? Did you develop a reason for voting him other than generating conversation?

[celaph]

tl;dr
I came away from this sussing too many people. Hopefully I can correct upon catching up and seeing the latest discourse.

Combining this with previous reads leaves me with a reads list that looks something like:
DL — town
Sabi — likely town
Jamie — Lean town
Snowy — Lean town
TFB — lean town
Bona — null
Kak — null
Maniac — null
aaro — scum lean
damo — scum lean
pyxxy — scum lean

[celaph]

I'm off for dinner and I'll catch up tonight.

Also, I turned off my visibility on the forum so y'all wouldn't be like "OMG CELAPH HAS BEEN ONLINE WITHOUT POSTING FOR SOOOO LONG" as I wrote that wall. Live with it.