M60 - Duck Season? (Director's Cut) - Game Thread

[seth24c]

I wanted to look closely at D1 voting. It’s the only time we’ve snared scum so hopefully will yield the most information. Obviously I’m aware you guys don’t know my alignment for sure so some of this you’ll have to take on trust now and will then become more compelling to you all if I die. I don’t think I’m a good NK because I was the counter wagon on D1.
So with 2hrs 30mins to go on D1 Scum Summit votes for town Bunny. Making it:

Summit 7, Damo 4, Chaqa 2, Maniac 2
Note at this point Summit choose not to vote for a counter wagon 2hrs 30mins from EOD. Was that so he could see who got closest to him and then jump on them later? Maybe he wanted some support from his scum buddies to start a fresh wagon idk.
Anywho, the next three votes from pure of heart TrPrado, Chaqa and Worcej bring the voting to
Summit 7, Damo 6, Chaqa 2, Maniac 2
With 2hrs to go Flum then moves off scum Summit and onto unknown Nannook. This ties the lead trains 6 v 6.
So this is the first suspect vote. Lets look at Flum.
Pg 3 – “I just realized I'm still invisible from when I was scum”
This is interesting. Was this a signal to Summit to take off his invisibility cloak?
Pg 9 – “##Vote Summit
His thing is set to invisible. Only scum do that.
Source: I did that as scum”
Pg 9 – “Ghug, Moscow join me.
First real wagon. If you join now we can be the town bloc going forward.”
Now this could be real bussing. Not only voting for summit but pushing others to join him. I think if Flum flips scum then Moscow/EMC & Ghug get a little town credit here.
Pg 39 – “I'll humour Vecna's desire for Summit to be free of pressure for now.

##Vote Damo”
This is interesting as Scum Flum could be setting up vecna to blame if town Damo got killed instead of scum Summit.
Pg 58 – “Summit/Damo/and even Chaqa are all acceptable wagons.
I'd prefer Summit quite a bit more than Damo or Chaqa right now though.”
Pg 58 – “Nanook would be a better counterwagon than Damo and Chaqa probably” [He doesn’t give any reason either here or elsewhere]
Pg 60 – “Damo and Chaqa have been acting pretty townie under pressure.”
Pg 60 – “##Vote Nanook” [Coming off Summit]
So Flum was saying Summit, Damo and Chaqa were all good kills, but he preferred Summit. Then said Nanook might make a better counter wagon than Damo/Chaqa, so came off his main read Summit to vote Nanook even though he was well behind an ‘acceptable’ kill Damo.
So in a scenario where Summit/Flum/Nanook are all scum, Flums actions make perfect sense. He has given a reason to vote for scum Summit but sees him likely to die. He moves to scum Nanook without giving any reasons because it reduces summit vote count by 1 and Nanook isn’t really under pressure. Flum know that final wagons are likely to be scum summit v either damo/chaqa/maniac at this point. Being off a main wagon gives him flexibility to make a late switch to either bus or save Summit.
As it happens within 30mins of voting Nanook Summit regains the lead easily. With summit on 7, Nan 4, Damo 3 and Chaqa 2 Flum realises that this could be scum v scum and bussing the most scummy makes better sense as they are likely to die soon anyway. He switches from Nanook to Summit
Once this bus decision is made he commits to it by trying to help drive the wafon. For instance by calling ghug across.
So TL;DR
Flum is scum. After he flips we should look much closer at Nanook who I also think could be scum
##vote Flum

Maniac I like this and it levels with what I thought about flum as well. Why are you just now presenting this case?

[Hellenic Riot]

Was Tom near-clear? How so?

Probably just not good phrasing on my part. I was referring to the fact that he was already widely townread to the point that he was given the gun and most people thought he was town.

That's still pretty markedly different from Chaqa & Bunny. Isn't your whole point suggesting that people who were widely townread aren't dying? Wouldn't Tom have fitted much more closely into the group with myself, kgray, ghug, and Flum that you were calling attention to in the first place?

[kgray]

There's always the possibility that Summit was annoyed at his team (possibly because of an early bus) and therefore made the CC despite the risk of it resulting in a teammate (Maniac) being eliminated just to stick his fingers up at them. Scum don't always play optimally, and given nothing else Summit did was optimal, I'm not completely convinced we can rule Maniac out as non-traitor scum based on the claim

I really don't think this is what happened, imo summit's a team player and would absolutely go down for his team. But it is not impossible that he claimed when his teammate was on the block assuming there'd be a cc and he'd still be the one to die.

[seth24c]

Was Tom near-clear? How so?

Probably just not good phrasing on my part. I was referring to the fact that he was already widely townread to the point that he was given the gun and most people thought he was town.

That's still pretty markedly different from Chaqa & Bunny. Isn't your whole point suggesting that people who were widely townread aren't dying? Wouldn't Tom have fitted much more closely into the group with myself, kgray, ghug, and Flum that you were calling attention to in the first place?

Tom switched from maniac to summit at a critical time and probably should have been included with that group you are right but I was mainly thinking of the ones who were still alive. In my opinion the fact that he was given a gun and put himself out there as the one who used it made him an obvious target for the night kill, similar to an outed pr. You disagree with that?

[kgray]

Does anyone think there's a chance kgray saw she rolled scum with summit again and decided he was a lost cause and just bussed hard? Or is this me being paranoid? Literally no one even suggested she might have been scum last time and now I'm getting worried because if there's an incredible deep threat it's her

Can you tell me what she's like as scum? I've asked a couple times and not gotten any answer.

I think that's a plausible reason/way to bus in a vacuum, but everything she says feels town motivated.

I'm sure you're not asking me but someone did call me "insidious" after M1015

[seth24c]

Does anyone think there's a chance kgray saw she rolled scum with summit again and decided he was a lost cause and just bussed hard? Or is this me being paranoid? Literally no one even suggested she might have been scum last time and now I'm getting worried because if there's an incredible deep threat it's her

Can you tell me what she's like as scum? I've asked a couple times and not gotten any answer.

I think that's a plausible reason/way to bus in a vacuum, but everything she says feels town motivated.

I'm sure you're not asking me but someone did call me "insidious" after M1015

If you’re scum here I’ll be saying the same thing.

[Hellenic Riot]

Probably just not good phrasing on my part. I was referring to the fact that he was already widely townread to the point that he was given the gun and most people thought he was town.

That's still pretty markedly different from Chaqa & Bunny. Isn't your whole point suggesting that people who were widely townread aren't dying? Wouldn't Tom have fitted much more closely into the group with myself, kgray, ghug, and Flum that you were calling attention to in the first place?

Tom switched from maniac to summit at a critical time and probably should have been included with that group you are right but I was mainly thinking of the ones who were still alive. In my opinion the fact that he was given a gun and put himself out there as the one who used it made him an obvious target for the night kill, similar to an outed pr. You disagree with that?

I think there's a very obvious reason why Tom would make a good NK, but that wasn't my point. My point is that you were implying it was suspicious that none of the townread summit-voters had died, but ignoring the fact that a player widely townread for voting summit *had* been NK'd.

[kgray]

So TL;DR
Flum is scum. After he flips we should look much closer at Nanook who I also think could be scum
##vote Flum

I actually don't hate this case...

[ghug]

Do you think it is strange that scum hasn’t started flipping any of the highly townread people on the summit wagon? Why do you think that is?

They did NK Tom after the PRs, so N5 was the first night they would have made that decision, or possibly N1 with rdrivera as well. I think there are a few possibilities. If Fluminator and/or ghug were bussing summit, they could be keeping the others around for cover. Or, I could be wrong about other summit bussers, and they are keeping the others around for cover. It could be just that they thought worcej was a PR. Or maybe they anticipated your question would be asked and are tying to encourage DKs in the summit voters.

I think at least part of why worcej was the NK was that they knew he was not jailed. Fluminator, Durga, and emc (Moscow) were the summit voters who posted N5, do you think any of them could be scum?

But they didn’t know that they would hit prs the first night (rdr) at least and still killed off wagon. Tom, chaqa, and bunny make sense as they were clears or near clear but both worcej and RDR being off the summit wagon paints a pretty strong picture in my opinion.

Why are you assuming they hadn't figured out rdr's role?

[ghug]

Lol i missed Maniac's post entirely

[ghug]

Does anyone think there's a chance kgray saw she rolled scum with summit again and decided he was a lost cause and just bussed hard? Or is this me being paranoid? Literally no one even suggested she might have been scum last time and now I'm getting worried because if there's an incredible deep threat it's her

Can you tell me what she's like as scum? I've asked a couple times and not gotten any answer.

I think that's a plausible reason/way to bus in a vacuum, but everything she says feels town motivated.

I'm sure you're not asking me but someone did call me "insidious" after M1015

I'm actually very interested to hear how you think your own play changes with alignment.

[kgray]

Can you tell me what she's like as scum? I've asked a couple times and not gotten any answer.

I think that's a plausible reason/way to bus in a vacuum, but everything she says feels town motivated.

I'm sure you're not asking me but someone did call me "insidious" after M1015

If you’re scum here I’ll be saying the same thing.

Do you strongly townread me? You said I was being opportunistic and scum-motivated on D5, and you've been saying you're suspicious of a group of widely townread summit voters that includes me. So why would my play be insidious to you if you are town and I were scum?

[kgray]

Lol i missed Maniac's post entirely

What do you think about it?

[Fluminator]

##vote bozo

Is there any particular reason why you're automatically voting as a pair with Fluminator for the fourth EoD* in a row?

*includes gunshot

Yes, I feel he's buddying me. Surely no one finds me that charming and convincing.

[ghug]

Lol i missed Maniac's post entirely

What do you think about it?

It doesn't really move the needle for me that much. You can come up with a plausible explanation for any summit vote being a bus, and Flum was already an OK candidate for that in my mind.

[Fluminator]

What made him change his mind? You think he's not scumreading you anymore because he changed to Bozo?

I don't know what made flum change his mind.
No, Flum probably still is.

Flum what made you change from myself to Bozo?

I changed my mind again

##Vote Donny

[Fluminator]

In addition to his D1/N1 potential traitor signaling and him not voting for summit D1, this is the bulk of it:

I'd be more suspicious of Maniac voting flash, then almost instantly flipping his vote onto Vecna because he thought the flash voters were sketchy if it wasn't Town vs. Town

You went out of your way to point out that scum would rather have town!Vecna daykilled over town!flash, so this backtrack seems pretty disingenuous to me.

He still stated why he flipped. Your case somehow missed that?

[Fluminator]

I wanted to look closely at D1 voting. It’s the only time we’ve snared scum so hopefully will yield the most information. Obviously I’m aware you guys don’t know my alignment for sure so some of this you’ll have to take on trust now and will then become more compelling to you all if I die. I don’t think I’m a good NK because I was the counter wagon on D1.
So with 2hrs 30mins to go on D1 Scum Summit votes for town Bunny. Making it:

Summit 7, Damo 4, Chaqa 2, Maniac 2
Note at this point Summit choose not to vote for a counter wagon 2hrs 30mins from EOD. Was that so he could see who got closest to him and then jump on them later? Maybe he wanted some support from his scum buddies to start a fresh wagon idk.
Anywho, the next three votes from pure of heart TrPrado, Chaqa and Worcej bring the voting to
Summit 7, Damo 6, Chaqa 2, Maniac 2
With 2hrs to go Flum then moves off scum Summit and onto unknown Nannook. This ties the lead trains 6 v 6.
So this is the first suspect vote. Lets look at Flum.
Pg 3 – “I just realized I'm still invisible from when I was scum”
This is interesting. Was this a signal to Summit to take off his invisibility cloak?
Pg 9 – “##Vote Summit
His thing is set to invisible. Only scum do that.
Source: I did that as scum”
Pg 9 – “Ghug, Moscow join me.
First real wagon. If you join now we can be the town bloc going forward.”
Now this could be real bussing. Not only voting for summit but pushing others to join him. I think if Flum flips scum then Moscow/EMC & Ghug get a little town credit here.
Pg 39 – “I'll humour Vecna's desire for Summit to be free of pressure for now.

##Vote Damo”
This is interesting as Scum Flum could be setting up vecna to blame if town Damo got killed instead of scum Summit.
Pg 58 – “Summit/Damo/and even Chaqa are all acceptable wagons.
I'd prefer Summit quite a bit more than Damo or Chaqa right now though.”
Pg 58 – “Nanook would be a better counterwagon than Damo and Chaqa probably” [He doesn’t give any reason either here or elsewhere]
Pg 60 – “Damo and Chaqa have been acting pretty townie under pressure.”
Pg 60 – “##Vote Nanook” [Coming off Summit]
So Flum was saying Summit, Damo and Chaqa were all good kills, but he preferred Summit. Then said Nanook might make a better counter wagon than Damo/Chaqa, so came off his main read Summit to vote Nanook even though he was well behind an ‘acceptable’ kill Damo.
So in a scenario where Summit/Flum/Nanook are all scum, Flums actions make perfect sense. He has given a reason to vote for scum Summit but sees him likely to die. He moves to scum Nanook without giving any reasons because it reduces summit vote count by 1 and Nanook isn’t really under pressure. Flum know that final wagons are likely to be scum summit v either damo/chaqa/maniac at this point. Being off a main wagon gives him flexibility to make a late switch to either bus or save Summit.
As it happens within 30mins of voting Nanook Summit regains the lead easily. With summit on 7, Nan 4, Damo 3 and Chaqa 2 Flum realises that this could be scum v scum and bussing the most scummy makes better sense as they are likely to die soon anyway. He switches from Nanook to Summit
Once this bus decision is made he commits to it by trying to help drive the wafon. For instance by calling ghug across.
So TL;DR
Flum is scum. After he flips we should look much closer at Nanook who I also think could be scum
##vote Flum

Maniac I like this and it levels with what I thought about flum as well. Why are you just now presenting this case?

I was salty at Vecna because I was a poor loser, so I was prepared to bury Vecna when Summit flipped because I thought he was scum too. But then he actually ended up being really townie lol.

But no, there's a difference from pressuring people to vote scum, and being pressured to vote scum like I was last game when I was scum.

[Maniac]

I wanted to look closely at D1 voting. It’s the only time we’ve snared scum so hopefully will yield the most information. Obviously I’m aware you guys don’t know my alignment for sure so some of this you’ll have to take on trust now and will then become more compelling to you all if I die. I don’t think I’m a good NK because I was the counter wagon on D1.
So with 2hrs 30mins to go on D1 Scum Summit votes for town Bunny. Making it:

Summit 7, Damo 4, Chaqa 2, Maniac 2
Note at this point Summit choose not to vote for a counter wagon 2hrs 30mins from EOD. Was that so he could see who got closest to him and then jump on them later? Maybe he wanted some support from his scum buddies to start a fresh wagon idk.
Anywho, the next three votes from pure of heart TrPrado, Chaqa and Worcej bring the voting to
Summit 7, Damo 6, Chaqa 2, Maniac 2
With 2hrs to go Flum then moves off scum Summit and onto unknown Nannook. This ties the lead trains 6 v 6.
So this is the first suspect vote. Lets look at Flum.
Pg 3 – “I just realized I'm still invisible from when I was scum”
This is interesting. Was this a signal to Summit to take off his invisibility cloak?
Pg 9 – “##Vote Summit
His thing is set to invisible. Only scum do that.
Source: I did that as scum”
Pg 9 – “Ghug, Moscow join me.
First real wagon. If you join now we can be the town bloc going forward.”
Now this could be real bussing. Not only voting for summit but pushing others to join him. I think if Flum flips scum then Moscow/EMC & Ghug get a little town credit here.
Pg 39 – “I'll humour Vecna's desire for Summit to be free of pressure for now.

##Vote Damo”
This is interesting as Scum Flum could be setting up vecna to blame if town Damo got killed instead of scum Summit.
Pg 58 – “Summit/Damo/and even Chaqa are all acceptable wagons.
I'd prefer Summit quite a bit more than Damo or Chaqa right now though.”
Pg 58 – “Nanook would be a better counterwagon than Damo and Chaqa probably” [He doesn’t give any reason either here or elsewhere]
Pg 60 – “Damo and Chaqa have been acting pretty townie under pressure.”
Pg 60 – “##Vote Nanook” [Coming off Summit]
So Flum was saying Summit, Damo and Chaqa were all good kills, but he preferred Summit. Then said Nanook might make a better counter wagon than Damo/Chaqa, so came off his main read Summit to vote Nanook even though he was well behind an ‘acceptable’ kill Damo.
So in a scenario where Summit/Flum/Nanook are all scum, Flums actions make perfect sense. He has given a reason to vote for scum Summit but sees him likely to die. He moves to scum Nanook without giving any reasons because it reduces summit vote count by 1 and Nanook isn’t really under pressure. Flum know that final wagons are likely to be scum summit v either damo/chaqa/maniac at this point. Being off a main wagon gives him flexibility to make a late switch to either bus or save Summit.
As it happens within 30mins of voting Nanook Summit regains the lead easily. With summit on 7, Nan 4, Damo 3 and Chaqa 2 Flum realises that this could be scum v scum and bussing the most scummy makes better sense as they are likely to die soon anyway. He switches from Nanook to Summit
Once this bus decision is made he commits to it by trying to help drive the wafon. For instance by calling ghug across.
So TL;DR
Flum is scum. After he flips we should look much closer at Nanook who I also think could be scum
##vote Flum

Maniac I like this and it levels with what I thought about flum as well. Why are you just now presenting this case?

All my scum buddies are wagons today so I wanted to get a towny wagon going. Hope above Seth. It’s half price Friday.

[Donny Dude]

I don't know what made flum change his mind.
No, Flum probably still is.

Flum what made you change from myself to Bozo?

I changed my mind again

##Vote Donny

k