M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[Vecna]

Ill pose you an interesting puzzle. What is the most damning thing Rdrivera has done today?

Umm... I don't think he's done anything particularly damning today? He's kind of just been around, which is how he's been all game. I really dislike that he seems to have forgotten about his previously very strong scumread of Chaqa, now that Chaqa is finally a wagon.

Did I miss something big?

A town Rdrivera would know that scum must have at least 1 zero cost or positive ability on their team, no? His Poe pool should have been screaming that either chaqa or Darg is conf-scum to him. Yet he has not been voicing any push in their direction today

[Vecna]

Ill pose you an interesting puzzle. What is the most damning thing Rdrivera has done today?

Umm... I don't think he's done anything particularly damning today? He's kind of just been around, which is how he's been all game. I really dislike that he seems to have forgotten about his previously very strong scumread of Chaqa, now that Chaqa is finally a wagon.

Did I miss something big?

Interstating you don't dislike I am not voting you, who I was voting yesterday and that I still think is scum.

Chaqa is on my scumlist too, but I think it need to be one of Chaqa/Macca/Dargo and I think we have a better chance going for one of the useless trackers. And I explained this before, so your comment feel really weird to me.
Your push on Chaqa don't remember me town Kgray that I usually can easily follow the reasoning.

Well at least he mentioned it now in this post

[Vecna]

Good morning

I expect this’ll be a long post, for me.

<snip>

Explain to me how you could see "scum durga" in those 5 posts she did for me

[Vecna]

@Vecna: why the hell didn't you watch Macca last night?

He never even popped into my mind as an option, why would I want to be watching him? Just because he now came out with the "lol I wanted to use it so I self-used" post? It was a terrible choice he made. It doesnt make him look more towny whatsoever. It doesnt take away any fears from us of him having used it on you....Also, its not like it was a 100% lock that he was the UB during the nightphase (likely though as it was).

The rationale behind my use was simple.

-Either I do the predictable thing of watching Kgray (which I felt a scum-team with you on it would definitely work around so I wouldnt get anything incriminating)
-Or I watch Jamiet (but I felt if he was targeted by anything it would likely be a roleblock to allow scum to kill me)
-Or I watch someone unpredictable with a smaller chance of maybe catching the UB, or confirming/catching a tracker. Also to make sure that person could be daykilled today.

I had you as my target right up untill an hour before EoN I think. Then my mind focused again on the logic that scum appears to have been avoiding kills that might be docsaved. People were suggesting that Bunny was the second most likeliest person to have been recruited, and he was one of my preferred daykill targets for today at that time.

I don’t know about this. If Macca is town then of course they’d use it on themselves at this point. You, damo and I had already made it clear in the thread that we thought we knew their role, and they were a wagon for a good part of the day yesterday. So using it on themselves is the only reasonable thing for town!Macca to do. Seeing them use it on themselves doesn’t necessarily clear them, but seeing them *not* use it on themselves would be a lot more suspicious, and we’d know they were a DK option.

You’re saying that macca claiming you use it on themselves doesn’t take away any fears of actually using it on me, but it does. If you’d seen the protect on them you’d know they didn’t use it on me, right?

Idk, I’ve been useless with my role this game so I can’t really criticize you. But I’m fairly concerned about this because I think that watching macca could give more info about their alignment than watching anyone else, so it’s what I’d expect town!Vecna to do.

Also feel like I need to respond to this some more.

Nowhere in their interaction on the topic did I get the vibe from macca that he would use it on himself. We even discussed yesterday that a UB self-using would be scummy as fuck and would not help us in reading the slot.

We stated it should be used on someone else that was not the gov themselves. As a waste of an ability to get rid of it.

So yeah, argue after the fact all you want, but I was always going to use it on either you, or Rdrivera, or Bunny (the two other targets I could conceive of as potential targets for today that could be scum with macca in a world where you would be town).

[Chaqa]

Oh, my Chaqa case. It's basically these things:

• Yeah so the main thing is admittedly omgus and that he doesn't have any good reasons for his reads. This goes for everyone, but since he's spent all game focused on scumreading me, I'm the most obvious example. My initial reason for scum-reading you was quite light, and involved a general meta justification and gut-feel. I think he just saw that vocal and respected people were suspicious of me and joined in. He hasn't actually explained why he thinks I'm scum (he vaguely sites "things others have pointed out" and gut, or ignores my questions, or deflects) I explained that, as above, it began as a gut feeling, and then your reactions to my scum-read of you were not what I believe to be town reactions., and yet he's been "convinced" that I'm scum this entire game This is not true. I was not convinced until I came up with the idea of locking my vote in until my three top townreads (at the time) said I should. It maybe didn't make the most sense, but the way you reacted to it was VERY scummy, IMO. Instead of trying to convince me and them that you weren't scummy, you attacked me for "shirking" my vote or w/e you had said.. The more "concrete" things he has pointed to are just him twisting my words or misrepresenting what happened.

• It's not just that he's not even considering that I could be town, but more importantly he's not even looking for any other scum - even at this stage in the game! It's because he thinks he can just get me miskilled here and it's gg. This is untrue. I've outlined more townreads than scumreads, true, but I have pushed other scumreads - notably I thought Seth was scummy, and also think Bunny looks bad now./color]

• I was similarly suspicious of his confidence in his ghug read. ghug tricked literally everyone into townreading him last game (including Chaqa), and Chaqa never once questioned ghug's alignment here. The worlds most extreme case of buddying. I didn't really pay attention last game after I died, but I don't rcall thinking ghug was all that town for read reasons - last game I had him down more as a PoE clear because of the day 1 summit bus

• Now that we know DV was town, I definitely think he scumslipped with his colored votes list. To be quite honest, I thought ghug was the Double Voter until he flipped, which was part of why I was townreading him so strongly.

See my remarks in green.

So youre saying you marked the DV in green because you thought it was Ghug?

Yes. I’d thought he was DV since like Day 2 or so

[Vecna]

lol, there must be something wrong in the code of the quoted post there

[dargorygel]

Good morning

I expect this’ll be a long post, for me.

<snip>

Explain to me how you could see "scum durga" in those 5 posts she did for me

Probably confirmation bias. But she is acting like scum lying low, and perhaps even her willingness to leave early is more likely as scum. Not saying I have a case here. Just can see it looking back.

[Vecna]

Rdrivera, how did you feel about how damo approached my idea for the NO KILL, and him suddenly townreading you for those 2 posts you did on the topic?

[Vecna]

I totally wanna talk about my current feelings, but I kinda wanna wait for Rdrivera for his answer to that question as well. choices, choices

[damo666]

Can we avoid fluorescent green please.

[Vecna]

its probably a bug or a left open tag, quoting that first post puts any in the chain in green.

[Chaqa]

@chaqa, your read on me for EOD yesterday is completely unexplained. If you also scumread Seth then:

1) What did you mind about my voting Seth?
2) What did you mind about me being a decisive vote on kgray?
3) What did you mind about me moving to not have a potential tie after Jamie/Vecna/rdr would have caused one?

Can you explain why you think I look bad, but kgray squirming or Jamie saving her, or Vecna and rdr moving their votes look OK?

The reason I find you (and also rdr) suspicious for EoD4 is that it’s clear mafia knew who the double voter was, and could therefore assume in the situation yesterday that they would vote against kgray. So it was 6-5 kgray to ghug, and rdr switches making it 6-6.

If you are actually town as you claim, then how can you be so sure that scum knew who the double voter was......

Because they killed seth last night???

[damo666]

Rdrivera, how did you feel about how damo approached my idea for the NO KILL, and him suddenly townreading you for those 2 posts you did on the topic?

I'd just like to point out I had already said PV ruled out as original scum. But yes his response didn't sound like he was recruited.

[Vecna]

See my remarks in green.

So youre saying you marked the DV in green because you thought it was Ghug?

Yes. I’d thought he was DV since like Day 2 or so

Can you explain why you thought so Chaqa?

[Chaqa]

The reason I find you (and also rdr) suspicious for EoD4 is that it’s clear mafia knew who the double voter was, and could therefore assume in the situation yesterday that they would vote against kgray. So it was 5-5 kgray to ghug, and rdr switches making it 6-

I hit enter when I was still typing this and I had the numbers jumbled. Also I’m super high, but basically I thought yiur movements and RDR’s were weird!

On second glance, Rivera’s vote is the worst one objectively, though

who is scum with Kgray?

Rivera for a start.

Bunny or macca seem possible. Maybe both.

Still unsure if there's a "deep cover" scum in the Vecna/Jamie/Dargo group.

[damo666]

its probably a bug or a left open tag, quoting that first post puts any in the chain in green.

I meant Chaqa using it in the first place. I wasn't moaning at you lol.

[Vecna]

The reason I find you (and also rdr) suspicious for EoD4 is that it’s clear mafia knew who the double voter was, and could therefore assume in the situation yesterday that they would vote against kgray. So it was 6-5 kgray to ghug, and rdr switches making it 6-6.

If you are actually town as you claim, then how can you be so sure that scum knew who the double voter was......

Because they killed seth last night???

Youre suggesting they knew it instantly on the spot, while Ghug had not flipped yet, Kgray literally just claimed, and they most likely also would not have known your role.

Quite a difference with them knowing it by the end of the night phase.

[BunnyGo]

I hit enter when I was still typing this and I had the numbers jumbled. Also I’m super high, but basically I thought yiur movements and RDR’s were weird!

On second glance, Rivera’s vote is the worst one objectively, though

who is scum with Kgray?

Rivera for a start.

Bunny or macca seem possible. Maybe both.

Still unsure if there's a "deep cover" scum in the Vecna/Jamie/Dargo group.

I'm curious. Did you look at Vecna's "hard towncore" posts that dargo made that "couldn't possibly be faked"? Do you find them as convincing?

[Vecna]

I hit enter when I was still typing this and I had the numbers jumbled. Also I’m super high, but basically I thought yiur movements and RDR’s were weird!

On second glance, Rivera’s vote is the worst one objectively, though

who is scum with Kgray?

Rivera for a start.

Bunny or macca seem possible. Maybe both.

Still unsure if there's a "deep cover" scum in the Vecna/Jamie/Dargo group.

Would you be truely surprised that most of the other people are probably thinking that you two have just been hardcore bussing eachother?

Loads of other people keep flipping their opinion all the time, the two of you have been path-dependent projectiles for quite some time now

[rdrivera2005]

Rdrivera, how did you feel about how damo approached my idea for the NO KILL, and him suddenly townreading you for those 2 posts you did on the topic?

I think his approach to your idea is NAI (I think the idea is bad, but I don't think scum will go for it, they are close to winning, don't need to take risks). Townreading me could be buddying and it might be working a bit as I am considering to move go for Kgray.

Anyway, unless we go for your plan we will need to consolidate before EOD or else scum have an easy win. Town collectively need to make a choice and go for it, we can't have vanity wagons. A seven or eight vote wagon and 1 vote on Macca is what I think we should have today (I am not including Flum).