Mafia 56: Scout Camp

[summit_fever]

I'm vanilla town.

[worcej]

9 buddy pairs, and two unpaired.

Ah, disregard then. Besides being a meh idea anyways, town would expose a lot for little to gain.

I do not understand how what you suggested had any town gain at all.

Same way I feel the massclaim isn't ever worth it - you trade every advantage we have for pools of players to focus in, which will be manipulated by scum.

My idea does provides similar information for analysis by creating possible scum players appearing due to their continued life, but keeps PRs hidden in the process.

[summit_fever]

"When a player is sent home, their full role will not be revealed. Their alignment (dirty/clean) will be revealed, but their powers (if they have any) will not be revealed."

This is why we should mass claim PR or VT D1. Depending on how many players claim PR, we can decide the best time for PRs to claim their exact role to quickly eliminate any scum claiming PR.

Again - scum are going to spread out. You will have 10-ish PR's and 10-ish VTs. What do you do with that information as town?

Given the current number of claimants do you think it can still benefit town to not claim?

[worcej]

I already stated in the signups I would hardveto a massclaim. So lets not waste 30 pages discussing the merits abd just play proper mafia instead of what the setup

As usual, I believe we have a difference of opinion on what constitutes "proper mafia". My idea of "proper mafia" is to do everything you can within the rules to win.

If you have yet to realize the frustration Vecna and myself are projecting - it's annoying that we turn a game of subterfuge into and stop actually really scum hunting via actions/words and instead just start sorting out piles.

If I wanted that, I'd play 52 card pickup.

[worcej]

"When a player is sent home, their full role will not be revealed. Their alignment (dirty/clean) will be revealed, but their powers (if they have any) will not be revealed."

This is why we should mass claim PR or VT D1. Depending on how many players claim PR, we can decide the best time for PRs to claim their exact role to quickly eliminate any scum claiming PR.

Again - scum are going to spread out. You will have 10-ish PR's and 10-ish VTs. What do you do with that information as town?

Given the current number of claimants do you think it can still benefit town to not claim?

Still catching up, but my gut reaction to the people who have participated in claiming is you guys suck for doing it.

[bozotheclown]

Its not easy joining as a noob and some more experienced players pile in with terminology, votes, the setup of the game is different now to what is was initially (mafia/cops) etc

##vote bozo

no offence but it is just a holding vote until i properly read the 18 pages and make a decision. dont want to miss a vote- can always change it im told

Do you understand what we are doing with the mass claim? If your role is one of the 8 town roles with special abilities (Power Role or PR), you claim you are a PR, but do not tell us your exact role. If you are a VT, you claim VT. If you are mafia, you will have to figure out what to do.

[bozotheclown]

Also, bozo is feeling extremely tone-dead and is likely scum this game

Can you explain this comment? Do you think this was a legitimate strategy worcej was suggesting?

Better question now that I see this: bozo, do you think I was actually pitching a legit strategy?

No, I thought it was sarcasm.

[bozotheclown]

"When a player is sent home, their full role will not be revealed. Their alignment (dirty/clean) will be revealed, but their powers (if they have any) will not be revealed."

This is why we should mass claim PR or VT D1. Depending on how many players claim PR, we can decide the best time for PRs to claim their exact role to quickly eliminate any scum claiming PR.

Again - scum are going to spread out. You will have 10-ish PR's and 10-ish VTs. What do you do with that information as town?

Force the scum claiming PR to claim exact roles.

[worcej]

Rather than trying to take a vote on who supports or opposes a PR vs. VT mass claim, I am going to maintain a list of everyone who has opposed it to try to accelerate getting a consensus.

First, the reasons I think a D1 PR vs. VT mass claim is a benefit to town:

1. It will either give us 8 town clears or give us easily identifiable scum who have claimed PR.

2. It will prevent scum from making PR claims to avoid getting lynched.

3. It makes sure we know when a PR has been NKed so that scum will not be able to make PR claims late in the game when we would have no way of verifying if the claims are true.

4. Late in the game, the mafia is going to have enough information about buddy pairs to make reasonable guesses about town/town pairs, which means town can't afford too many mislynches to start the game. This makes narrowing down the lynch pool important to give town our best chance of winning.

Snipped to make the post shorter.

Responses below:
1. As Scum claim PR, we then move forward with having to claim specific roles and thus you're really just doing a full mass claim.

2. True, but given the setup, if someone claims PR at the last minute, we will never be able to verify truth or not until a flip occurs. Given there are duplicate PRs in town, if scum slam a claim into that group, the only way to confirm the claim is ALL other PRs submit their CC claim into that, which would expose the PRs for scum to kill.

3. Either way, you won't know because there are no role flips.

4. How would scum have information on buddy's at any point in this game? Am I missing an important mechanic somewhere? My read of the roles showed nothing about actually learning who each buddy is.

[worcej]

I don't fully understand this "massclaim" thing, but it doesn't seem like a good idea.

How exactly does it help us?

It doesn't help us as much as people may let you believe. Scum can manipulate the results by claiming in either pile.

[bozotheclown]

I hate mass claims, first and foremost, so take that into consideration as I address this:

I imagine we will generate a group of people claiming PR, which will be higher than 8, and also a group of non-PRs, forcing the lynches in the non-PR group as the scum kill off PR players.

This situation reminds me of the Kitsune game - where we had people claim PR or not-PR. I intentionally claimed PR as a scum GF to try to muddy the waters. My gut says 2/5 'dirty boys' will claim PR to hide out in as they slowly thin the town PR claims.

The more scum claiming PR, the better.

Explain why? If all 5 claim PR, you have 13 people to sort out.

The only way it's 'better' is you start forcing people to actually claim their roles, which gives scum the ability to game the PR's with their switches and kills to neutralize abilities.

7 VT clears would be a lot better than 8 PR clears. There are 8 PRs, the mafia can't neutralize all the PRs immediately.

[worcej]

I don't fully understand this "massclaim" thing, but it doesn't seem like a good idea.

How exactly does it help us?

If you do not understand it, why do you think it is not a good idea?

A PR/VT mass claim helps us by reducing the lynch pool. If all mafia avoid claiming to be a town PR, we immediately reduce the lynch pool from 20 to 12, increasing the chance of randomly lynching a scum from 25% to 41.7%. If any scum claim to be a town PR, it makes them much easier to sort later.

You forget that your odds go down as scum move to PR.

5/12 = 41.7%
4/11 = 36.4%
3/10 = 30.0%

With this all contingent on increasing the scums odds of killing our PR's to 100% from 40% on N1 btw.

[bozotheclown]

If we claim the exact role they can't do that. Only the Doc A and B should claim only Doc to have a 50/50 to not be roleblocked.

The A and B roles are not informed if they are A or B.

How do you know this?

"Town players will not be told whether they are A or B in their role PM. For example, the two First Aid Experts will receive identical role PMS."

[worcej]

I personally am unsure how you managed to pull the number 8 out of thin air. Because of the A/B roles we can't actually confirm half the PRs and mafia can pull the switches to decide which ones work. What exactly am I missing?

8 town players have unique roles (PRs), 7 town players are VT. If all mafia claim to be VTs, the 8 PRs are all clear, the A/B roles do not matter. If a mafia claims to be a town PR, and later claim to be an FAE or TCG, they will be counterclaimed by the real FAEs and TCGs, which is not a good situation for the mafia either, especially if they NK in the PRs and hit one of the CCs.

How is it not? say 2 mafia claim PR, and they each move to the FAE and TCG, they are hidden in piles of 3 players. Odds are we mislynch 2 times sorting it out as they continue to kill players.

[worcej]

I think Bozo is right.

I am gonna ko the massclaim

I am not a PR

First annoying person found on re-read. Not shocked.

[worcej]

All mass claim supporters should claim to put pressure on others.

And no, this is not a scummy post, please refer to Nozo and rdr posts.

Good luck forcing my stubborn hand.

[worcej]

"When a player is sent home, their full role will not be revealed. Their alignment (dirty/clean) will be revealed, but their powers (if they have any) will not be revealed."

This is why we should mass claim PR or VT D1. Depending on how many players claim PR, we can decide the best time for PRs to claim their exact role to quickly eliminate any scum claiming PR.

The fact bozo brings this up while he knows plenty of people have vetoed it, and uses this weak logic to defend it (why give scum a 100% roleblock and NK accuracy?)......it just feels like he wants to see which players will go against him passionately since those are usually the town PRs

Just dont respond people. The massclaim idea is dead since im hard vetoing it regardless. A hardclaim is pointless if some people are not going to claim. Ill literally get lynched before doing it.

Preach brother, PREACH!

[worcej]

I hate mass claims, first and foremost, so take that into consideration as I address this:

I imagine we will generate a group of people claiming PR, which will be higher than 8, and also a group of non-PRs, forcing the lynches in the non-PR group as the scum kill off PR players.

This situation reminds me of the Kitsune game - where we had people claim PR or not-PR. I intentionally claimed PR as a scum GF to try to muddy the waters. My gut says 2/5 'dirty boys' will claim PR to hide out in as they slowly thin the town PR claims.

The more scum claiming PR, the better.

This is also false logic.

Scum can just claim medic and camp cool guy. (1/3 chance of them to get lynched in that group).

And the other 3 claim VT (3 in a pool of 10 so also 30% chance).

Right now, scum is 5/20 players. We increase our odds of lynching scum by 5-8% by sacrificing nearly all PR potential we have. A very bad deal. On top of ruining another mafia game by making it boring.

AHEM BROTHER, TELL THEM THE LORD'S MESSAGE!

[worcej]

Right, so forcing our PR's to expose themselves (minus a letter for some of them) is worth it for 8 clears and 12 unknowns?

If you're willing to do that, why don't we just no lynch and claim our buddies? Scum can slowly pick off two of us and narrow down the pool that way instead.

I assume this is a joke.

Also, bozo is feeling extremely tone-dead and is likely scum this game

##vote bozo

Just going to get it over with. The thought process of 'expose all PRs for a small increase to lynching' is ridiculous.

[bozotheclown]

I already stated in the signups I would hardveto a massclaim. So lets not waste 30 pages discussing the merits abd just play proper mafia instead of what the setup

As usual, I believe we have a difference of opinion on what constitutes "proper mafia". My idea of "proper mafia" is to do everything you can within the rules to win.

If you have yet to realize the frustration Vecna and myself are projecting - it's annoying that we turn a game of subterfuge into and stop actually really scum hunting via actions/words and instead just start sorting out piles.

If I wanted that, I'd play 52 card pickup.

I believe I understand the opinion you and Vecna are expressing with your general opposition to mass claims. However, in my opinion, arguing against a mass claim for that reason is like arguing that the PRs should not use their abilities because it takes away from "scum hunting via actions/words".