M62: PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF REVOLUTIONARY MAFIA GAME THREAD!

[Balki Bartokomous]

Even if vash lurking d1 is scum-indicative, it seems like there should be bigger fish to fry toward the end of d1. There's more than one reason someone might be laying low (including but not limited to: scum meta, hung over, food coma, work on black friday, lazy-skimming because it's a massive game). Of course I'd like to see more from low-quantity players - they're actively hurting town in the long run by lurking. Yet at some point we have to admit that, even accounting for ancient scum metas, we get more information ROI by d1'ing a high-poster than a lurker.

Here, teacon tells ND that we have “bigger fish to fry” than Day-1-lurker Vashta. Considering that Vashta had little danger of being lynched at this point, I’d say that this is more likely a comment said about Town!Vashta in an effort for teacon trying to look town himself.

[bozotheclown]

I believe the only players teacon did not interact with D1 are Chaqa, Fluminator, and Maniac.

[Balki Bartokomous]

Everyone not voting for ND, teacon, or Maniac except for you and emc did not appear to be online at EOD.

Are you sure about that? I have no idea if that’s true. But, just curious if you’ve looked into it. Seemed like there were a ton of people off the main wagons.

As I previously stated, your vote looks suspicious to me because you avoided breaking the tie between ND and teacon, and your explanation seems suspicious because I do not think there was any chance of Hamilton getting DKed when you returned your vote to him, and I think you had already clearly established your scum read of him.

Well, does it make sense to you that I just didn’t know what I wanted to do? And so, I sort of returned to my default position (my top scum read) while I figured things out? I mean, that’s mostly the way I was feeling. I’d say that I agree that it was pretty unlikely for HB to be voted out in that moment when I returned my vote to him. And I thought about just leaving my vote there. But, I didn’t. In the end, I figured it would be better to cast a vote for one of the leading candidates. And that’s why I didn’t stay on HB. I did vote on one of the two leading wagons and it very well could have made a difference.

I’m not sure you’re thinking carefully about the way it feels to be on, and be voting, in the final minutes of a phase (especially when playing by sneaking glances at your phone, from a beach, with your family). Trying to catch up on the thread, trying to look over at peterbot to see a vote count, trying to refresh and see things live as they happen in the thread — you don’t have perfect information and you don’t know what the dozens of other players are going to do in the final minute. So, to assume I thought my vote for teacon (bringing him to within one vote of a lynch, with several posts still coming in before the phase ended) would not be decisive is just incorrect.

You are voting me not based on my behavior, or my vote, but by the timing of my vote. You think I should have voted for teacon 3 minutes earlier than I did. That’s just ridiculous.

To answer your specific question, as town I would expect you to make a choice between ND, teacon, and Maniac when it was clear they were the DK options instead of trying to start a wagon on BunnyGo or emphasize your scum read of Hamilton.

Bozo, go look again at what you would expect me to do as town. That is exactly what I did. I made a choice between ND, teacon, and Maniac when it was clear they were the DK options.

[Balki Bartokomous]

I believe the only players teacon did not interact with D1 are Chaqa, Fluminator, and Maniac.

What do you want us to conclude from this information?

[Balki Bartokomous]

please let's not get toxic.

Why don't you tell that to your lovely trumper friend and leave me alone?

Unless you're really getting into the flavor, I don't think people's politics are relevant to the game. I don't see how that's going to help make things more productive. It's just throwing fuel on the fire.

This dynamic will not end until each of you take individual owership of your own part in it.

@ND - Please don't antagonize durga. It makes everyone's life worse, and there's no conceivable kind of information you're going to get from pissing her off. Generating reactions is one thing, but we're all kinda expecting this situation to happen. Which means it's no longer a good rxn test, and just a pain in the butt. I don't want to play in that game.

This fits into the Town!durga paradigm where I currently reside.

Feels to me like this is teacon mediating between two townies to try and get town credit himself. It’s still possible Durga is his teammate, but that doesn’t feel right to me.

[Vecna]

Isn't the scum more likely to be organized and moving with a solid direction? They know who's town, and there's a chance that there's a coordinator posting in their QT to keep them acting according to plan. I don't buy this reasoning for a sus on Hamilton.

I agree that emc isn't looking too hot at the moment, but you sus Damo for his maniac vote, even though you also voted maniac d1 and were around at EoD (you posted on page 109, EoD was 110). Why's this?

I would think that town have an easier narrative to fall back to when their reads fall apart. Presumably there were good reasons for their moves and they can work to justify those moves as reasonable given their information despite being wrong. Scum don't have that fall back as their position is built on lies and faulty premises.

Granted, HB's choice to prioritize finding other scum as his defense could be a play style choice by him. I believe he said so himself. If these efforts lead somewhere, I could be convinced to change my vote. In the mean time, I'm concerned that the lack of follow up on his questions means he isn't getting anywhere.

I've seen your second question, but have to step away at the moment. Will respond when I get back on.

There's no agreed upon baseline yet for who is an alive town, and no PR information has come out, so almost every argument is going to be based on a train of thought that is not purely logical - a leap of logic or an assumption made that not everyone agrees upon is necessary to make a case at this stage. Perhaps town arguments rely on less uncertainties, but that's still a hazy line.

So you're saying, given the same information as we have now, if he can nail a scum, you'll change your vote? Wouldn't it be a little late to change your vote if it's revealed that he has, in fact, gotten a scum?

Its almost like these two are quoting poetry at eachother.

A mighty fine show. Very suspect

[Vecna]

@Bona

I notice you've spent a lot of today questioning other people's reads (and a big post looking back at teacon's actions), without actually giving any of your own - aside from voting celaph because he voted without giving reasons. Do you have any townreads? Has teacon's flip affected those? What did your look back at teacon lead you to conclude about other people?

4:36 am

[Vecna]

@Bona

I notice you've spent a lot of today questioning other people's reads (and a big post looking back at teacon's actions), without actually giving any of your own - aside from voting celaph because he voted without giving reasons. Do you have any townreads? Has teacon's flip affected those? What did your look back at teacon lead you to conclude about other people?

A lot of the change is from teacon's last post, and I put my reasons in my post looking at it (2572/129), although some people have gone up or down on their own.

I townread, in order of strength, top down:
brain; his large EoN posts were solid even if he was wrong about teacon, although I still want to see post 3. Also very active

Kgray; I dislike their being a part of the 3 vote sequence on ND, but I dislike her voters more
damo; teacon called him scum in his EoN post (interestingly the same logic that celaph is using to sus damo)
ghug; is also active, but did the weird thing of refusing to explain why he scumread me in his post, but then turned around and laughed it off
HB: teacon called him scum in his EoN post, but I think him having wrong reads is excusable, if a little sus.

Balki: voted teacon

I scumread, least scum on top:
Vecna: this is more of a null read than anything else, but I don't think too highly of his liking celaph's post where he called maniac sus for not voting when celaph was in the exact same circumstance
Everyone who's not talking: We're multiple days in, and there are 4 people below 20 posts. At least two are lurking scum - probably yoyo and chaqa (yes i know chaqa voted teacon)

Jamie; self imposed low posting, and then not doing a lot with some of his posts.
Maniac: post 2797 doesn't feel legit to me, and he hasn't been talking much
Aaro; apparently has mafia experience but hasn't scumread anyone, and voted one of his townreads (ND)
Nep; was defensive about my comments about them in my earlier reads list even though I didn't say they were sus.

Durga; pushed ND and came into my talk heavily on my side against ghug when he was pulling the "how do you feel' junk
celaph; votes without putting out a read list *or* having many opinions

5:27 am

seems unlikely to be the role feeding him this much stuff in that timeframe. The fascination with celaph continues and he uses how other people respond to that slot as reasons to be suspicious of those slots. A true towny mindset, since he is looking for scum partners and is reasoning along those lines. Not faked in the slightest id say.

[Vecna]

Oh dear.... Well, I'm not touching that one.

Its a gem, stop hating

[Vecna]

##votekgray seems a fine suspicion for now based on the end of Day 1. Vecna seemed to not like the teacon wagon (in fact this lack of support was my main reason voting there) and while brainbomb says he was one of the first people on tecon, he did tie it up with ND late in the day for...reasons?

ugh, this is really going to be a problem

[Vecna]

##votekgray seems a fine suspicion for now based on the end of Day 1. Vecna seemed to not like the teacon wagon (in fact this lack of support was my main reason voting there) and while brainbomb says he was one of the first people on tecon, he did tie it up with ND late in the day for...reasons?

reminds of how you guys miskilled me with like 37 lurkers, the entire scumteam and Kgray and HR on my wagon

[Balki Bartokomous]

Ya know, kgray was pretty vocal in spelling out why teacon was scum on Day 1. Here are some good examples:

29. What's the case on Teacon again?

Mostly he doesn't seem invested or solvey to me, and feels very different from how he was as town last game. Specifically there's this, which based on last game I'd never have expected to come from town!teacon:

In M61, Durga subbed out D1 and was scum, and in M59, Chaqa subbed out D1 and was scum, so recent history suggests scum are more likely to leave the game D1. It is also not an "out-of-game" reason, since bo_sox was in the game.

That makes a lot of sense. Better than the rest of the subjective d1 crapshoot elimination. ##vote jamiet

That makes a lot of sense. Better than the rest of the subjective d1 crapshoot elimination. ##vote jamiet

Yuck. This doesn't feel like town!teacon from last game at all.

I understand the idea that scum might want to bus a teammate, right up until that teammate might actually flip, and then back away. And that is one narrative that one could attribute to kgray’s Day 1. But her comments about teacon have conviction behind them, and they seem insightful. It looks to me like a real push, and I come away thinking kgray is townier than I thought before.

Please put me down as a dissenter to the kgray wagon.

[Vecna]

In terms of other reads that I haven't yet verbalized, I don't have great feelings about Damo and EMC. The latter for the really weak sus on the former (including a vote on damo despite being around at EoD). The former for their D1 Maniac vote.

I agree that emc isn't looking too hot at the moment, but you sus Damo for his maniac vote, even though you also voted maniac d1 and were around at EoD (you posted on page 109, EoD was 110). Why's this?

I don't like the reasoning that went into it. Reading damo in isolation, I see no indication of a townlean on teacon before the vote and only after the vote in saying that they saw Maniac as less town than teacon in the message below.

<snip>

Also, I question damo avoiding ND vs. teacon with his final vote:

<snip>
b) I don't really get why you question my vote. It was pointless leaving my vote on Durga and I was pretty convinced ND was town so I had to vote teacon or Maniac. Of the two I felt Maniac was less towny so voted there. In hindsight however I probably should have voted teacon being the wagon more likely to save ND which was my prime motivator. Hmmm. I'm a bit annoyed with myself now. O well, can't change it now.

I don't have a good read on whether this is a town damo admitting a mistake or a scum damo trying to explain away not voting for teacon. I wouldn't vote on just this, but ultimately it leaves me with an uneasy suspicion especially given damo's posting history today.

I voted for neither teacon or ND because I was fine with either of them dying. I think this may have been a mistake as there is a strong argument that I should have voted for ND with roughly 3 minutes left.

Great towny response again. These guys are just mario and luigi constantly trying to stop on eachothers mushroom head

[Vecna]

so bona talked about how we needed to sort out chaqa, bozo, yoyo

but didnt mention vash

At least vash has 3 townpings. Of all the lurkers, im fine binning him somewhere at least.

He's going to make the game significantly harder for town with his lurking and voting obvtown people that are actually contributing, but thats just the vash way of life.

[Vecna]

This is my second post.

Chaqa revelling in his lurkitude is towny?

no

[Vecna]

how do we explain bona being aware of exactly who each of the low posters are, saying all of them are town, but randomly leaves vash out

##Vote bonatogether

Pretty obvious given the way vash contributed to teacons wagon id say.

Whats your logic here anyway? Theyre scum together so he magically just left him off the list?

[Vecna]

This is my second post.

I literally hate you. Vig please shoot this one

i understand the sentiment. At least chaqa didnt vote Kgray putting a bloody 5 vote wagon there that we now have to contend with.

[Vecna]

At least Chaqa and Vash voted correctly.
Happy with killing Yoyo right now.

id say that is actually scum indicative for Chaqa. Not reading the game yet magically ending up on the right wagon?

sus-piiiiii-cious

[Jamiet99uk]

11. Good morning chums.

I see that my Yoyo wagon has died.

Did he post? Did he vote?

It appears that he did not.

This is one of the problems we have in this community. Lurkers always, always, always get a free pass. As a result, you people, yes YOU, ALL OF YOU, have turned lurking into an attractive mafia strategy. It will remain such unless we increase the minimum post count as a matter of policy, or until we. start. to. eliminate. them.

It appears that Vashta has shown up and deliberately posted the bare minimum.

@Vashta: Your vote is invalid because you did not include a space between "vote" and "Kgray", but President Eden is quite a liberal GM (how ironic) and he may count your vote. If not I hope he Modkills you. Pathetic.

[Vecna]

you both seem annoyed and theres no reason to even give a shit what im doing just go play your game and ill play mine

this might actually be one of the townier posts brainbomb has made. Dont think he'd be so outwardly forward (wtf vecna?) if he was scum being attacked over finding crappy reasons to vote people. Reads as annoyedness that people dont let him do his process thing.