M 90: Shootout at the Pretty Good Corral

[sweetandcool]

@flavius
here's the case I have. I didn't have any problems before, but during N2 I decide to go look back at something that left a decent impression on me, which I then noticed problems with. And believe it or not, I was indeed either asleep or away from my computer for the better part of 3 days due to sickness. I very nearly sub'd out N2 because of how I was feeling and how much time I was away. I'm now being dragged away for driving lessons, so I'm almost certainly missing EOD, but here's a quick rundown of your case on me particularly the D3 part: would not sheep own wagon: ITS A JOKE, I bolded, capitalized, and underlined that. post count wise fischl has posted more, but look at character count and theres a different story (THIS IS SOMETHING I HAVE ALSO SAID!!!). I detailed why I voted eden D2 as well, and personally D1 voting felt more off that a possibly buddying balki. I'd like to stress that all this actually supports my idea mentioned at the end of the following long post talking about page 44.

I think that there are several parts that do not add up, which are either indicative of not fully reading (NIA, but I got the impression that reading WAS done and you had FULLY looked through food to build this case, so unlikely) or cherry picking posts (which would be scum indicative, and possibly that you were attempting to use this post to 1)build town cred and/or 2)push the MK).

point 1 is moot, flavius says that it's "whatever".

2.He says we should NOT be voting for sweet...why? Because he legit claimed a town role how can we vote for someone like that when its so easy to verify?
YET
He then goes onto sweet; WHY? Never explained

Food does explain the reasoning, in the very post where the vote is present (both times, pg 17 AND 36)! And also in a post where he responds directly to you! possibly exaggerated, but I don't like how much is missed here.

3. During the whole Jamie thing do you know what food did? He votes DAMO. To "diffuse the tensions" like? Jamie gets mad early game when people go on him for being mad, it always happens and the wagon ALWAYS dies. Do you know what that whole thing DOES tell us though? INFORMATION. foodcoats is trying to diffuse the tensions for no reason...

food clarifies that its a joke, and even elaborates in a direct response to you pressing him on the joke vote!

4. And you know what else about that damo vote I just went back and look at this; he INITIALLY said that we should be going after lurkers D1, then flipped when I pressed on him again to say it was just one big joke.

This post is true, but ignores previous posts, such as HB on pg 7 who already mentioned this. Idk if this is just not seeing the post, or trying to steal a little bit of credit. I lean towards the second since I expect that if one is making a full argument for why someone is scum, they would've read all or almost all of that someone's posts.

In conclusion, flavius was either not reading, which is not the vibe I'm getting from all the previous activity, or was intentionally skipping posts, which is scum indicative. Please tell me if I missed anything. Flavius has very clearly read all my stuff, so I'm very much inclined to eliminate option 1. so it leaves flavius as scum intentionally leaving things out. That's my case there.

Wow I'm glad we've finally established Food was Town.

[sweetandcool]

@flavius
here's the case I have. I didn't have any problems before, but during N2 I decide to go look back at something that left a decent impression on me, which I then noticed problems with. And believe it or not, I was indeed either asleep or away from my computer for the better part of 3 days due to sickness. I very nearly sub'd out N2 because of how I was feeling and how much time I was away. I'm now being dragged away for driving lessons, so I'm almost certainly missing EOD, but here's a quick rundown of your case on me particularly the D3 part: would not sheep own wagon: ITS A JOKE, I bolded, capitalized, and underlined that. post count wise fischl has posted more, but look at character count and theres a different story (THIS IS SOMETHING I HAVE ALSO SAID!!!). I detailed why I voted eden D2 as well, and personally D1 voting felt more off that a possibly buddying balki. I'd like to stress that all this actually supports my idea mentioned at the end of the following long post talking about page 44.

I think that there are several parts that do not add up, which are either indicative of not fully reading (NIA, but I got the impression that reading WAS done and you had FULLY looked through food to build this case, so unlikely) or cherry picking posts (which would be scum indicative, and possibly that you were attempting to use this post to 1)build town cred and/or 2)push the MK).

point 1 is moot, flavius says that it's "whatever".

2.He says we should NOT be voting for sweet...why? Because he legit claimed a town role how can we vote for someone like that when its so easy to verify?
YET
He then goes onto sweet; WHY? Never explained

Food does explain the reasoning, in the very post where the vote is present (both times, pg 17 AND 36)! And also in a post where he responds directly to you! possibly exaggerated, but I don't like how much is missed here.

3. During the whole Jamie thing do you know what food did? He votes DAMO. To "diffuse the tensions" like? Jamie gets mad early game when people go on him for being mad, it always happens and the wagon ALWAYS dies. Do you know what that whole thing DOES tell us though? INFORMATION. foodcoats is trying to diffuse the tensions for no reason...

food clarifies that its a joke, and even elaborates in a direct response to you pressing him on the joke vote!

4. And you know what else about that damo vote I just went back and look at this; he INITIALLY said that we should be going after lurkers D1, then flipped when I pressed on him again to say it was just one big joke.

This post is true, but ignores previous posts, such as HB on pg 7 who already mentioned this. Idk if this is just not seeing the post, or trying to steal a little bit of credit. I lean towards the second since I expect that if one is making a full argument for why someone is scum, they would've read all or almost all of that someone's posts.

In conclusion, flavius was either not reading, which is not the vibe I'm getting from all the previous activity, or was intentionally skipping posts, which is scum indicative. Please tell me if I missed anything. Flavius has very clearly read all my stuff, so I'm very much inclined to eliminate option 1. so it leaves flavius as scum intentionally leaving things out. That's my case there.

ALL of this is WRONG I will explain why then I will take a shower

I have a feeling we'll all need to take a shower after this.

[FlaviusAetius]

@flavius
here's the case I have. I didn't have any problems before, but during N2 I decide to go look back at something that left a decent impression on me, which I then noticed problems with. And believe it or not, I was indeed either asleep or away from my computer for the better part of 3 days due to sickness. I very nearly sub'd out N2 because of how I was feeling and how much time I was away. I'm now being dragged away for driving lessons, so I'm almost certainly missing EOD, but here's a quick rundown of your case on me particularly the D3 part: would not sheep own wagon: ITS A JOKE, I bolded, capitalized, and underlined that. post count wise fischl has posted more, but look at character count and theres a different story (THIS IS SOMETHING I HAVE ALSO SAID!!!). I detailed why I voted eden D2 as well, and personally D1 voting felt more off that a possibly buddying balki. I'd like to stress that all this actually supports my idea mentioned at the end of the following long post talking about page 44.

I think that there are several parts that do not add up, which are either indicative of not fully reading (NIA, but I got the impression that reading WAS done and you had FULLY looked through food to build this case, so unlikely) or cherry picking posts (which would be scum indicative, and possibly that you were attempting to use this post to 1)build town cred and/or 2)push the MK).

point 1 is moot, flavius says that it's "whatever".

2.He says we should NOT be voting for sweet...why? Because he legit claimed a town role how can we vote for someone like that when its so easy to verify?
YET
He then goes onto sweet; WHY? Never explained

Food does explain the reasoning, in the very post where the vote is present (both times, pg 17 AND 36)! And also in a post where he responds directly to you! possibly exaggerated, but I don't like how much is missed here.

3. During the whole Jamie thing do you know what food did? He votes DAMO. To "diffuse the tensions" like? Jamie gets mad early game when people go on him for being mad, it always happens and the wagon ALWAYS dies. Do you know what that whole thing DOES tell us though? INFORMATION. foodcoats is trying to diffuse the tensions for no reason...

food clarifies that its a joke, and even elaborates in a direct response to you pressing him on the joke vote!

4. And you know what else about that damo vote I just went back and look at this; he INITIALLY said that we should be going after lurkers D1, then flipped when I pressed on him again to say it was just one big joke.

This post is true, but ignores previous posts, such as HB on pg 7 who already mentioned this. Idk if this is just not seeing the post, or trying to steal a little bit of credit. I lean towards the second since I expect that if one is making a full argument for why someone is scum, they would've read all or almost all of that someone's posts.

In conclusion, flavius was either not reading, which is not the vibe I'm getting from all the previous activity, or was intentionally skipping posts, which is scum indicative. Please tell me if I missed anything. Flavius has very clearly read all my stuff, so I'm very much inclined to eliminate option 1. so it leaves flavius as scum intentionally leaving things out. That's my case there.

1. It was NOT a joke this was a genuine defense of yourself in regarding sheeping wagons and >explaining< your vote on Eden
https://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=418797#p418797

2. I dont know if I can believe you, its just so awfully convient that they line up with one another. But FINE Ill call it NAI, sleeping while being sick though? Thats how you get more sick, you should get up and take a step outside when you are sick it helps, but just sleeping is bad

3. I would rather have osmeone who posts A LOT than someone who posts big long paragraphs that become mostly out of date fairly quickly, which you havent even done . I also suspect your word count only went up because of D3.

4. No I understand why you voted Eden my criticism is that you were scumreading Balki more and had good reasons for him that so conviently fell under the radar. You scumread Balki more than Eden, Eden felt like an afterthought yet you voted him anyways. This vote might have been the reason why a Balki wagon could never take off.

5. I KNOW what food's reasoning why, it didnt make sense . I mentioned that, I am asking him to explain WHY on his reasoning, not to elicit reasoning I already addressed. Food knew ahead of time sweet would fakeclaim instead of addressing the problems he had with it beforehand he did in this thread. SUS. Instead of immediately addressing his problems with it he waited for others to have a problem with it.
This train of logic makes no sense, he simultaneously was OK with sweet's fake claim, did not like sweet's fakeclaim before, AND simultaneously against and for sweet's fakeclaim during the game. It didnt sit right and he never explained why he did that.

You should not ignore point 1, point 1 & 2 work together

6.I understand it was a joke THAT was my problem with it! They were actually discussing something and food sweeps in trying to end it. NOT GOOD.

7. WHY would I see HB's post on food if I was making an argument against food . ALso to make the arugment against food I looked back at my own posts and summarized everything I was saying about him

------------------
I think you are largely misunderstanding the points IM trying to make, and then claiming Im the one whose skipping stuff when that is YOU . ##vote king

[dargorygel]

##GM NEWS n NOTES

Poker Alice

Perhaps even more than today, the Wild West was not a place where women were given permission to experiment with careers not normally seen as fit for women. But Alice Ivers embraced a career as a poker player, a profession still largely dominated by men.

Alice was born in England to conservative parents in 1851. They would have been disappointed in the recent election. Her father had the wanderlust bug of the age and relocated the family to Colorado. Alice seems to have caught the ailment herself as she fled her family at a young age to marry her first husband, Frank Duffield. This bold act would change the course of Alice’s life forever as Frank was a poker enthusiast, to say the least.

Preferring to accompany her husband out at night, she sat at the tables behind him while he played. When he died in a mining accident a few years into the marriage, Alice took up gambling herself. This led to another interesting Wild West crossover: She made big bucks playing at a bar in Colorado owned by Bob Ford, the man who killed Jesse James.

Alice was known to use her skills to finance a lavish lifestyle and made a show of heading to New York City with large earnings to stock up on the couture fashions of the day. She was also exceptionally shrewd as a professional gambler. It is widely believed that she married her last husband rather than pay off a large gaming debt she owed him.

Humorously, it is reported that Alice refused to play on Sundays despite her nontraditional ways. However, she was still arrested several times for running girls, bootlegging, and public drunkenness.

VOTE COUNT

Kingofthepirates (5) damo, sweet, Bunny, lfi, Flav
Lfischl (4) kotp, rdr, bozo, Jamie
FlaviousAetius (1) Demon

Kingofthepirates is leading the death march
DAY ends in just less than an hour and a half

[rdrivera2005]

What are people’s thoughts on an RDR wagon here?

This would be ok as well, I am operating under 'Bunny saved rdr' line of thinking.

So am I ##votr rdr

lfischl was looking for support for a rdrivera wagon D2 before voting. The mafia may have considered rdrivera a good mis-kill target after Balki almost got him DKed D1.

Yep, Balki was tryng to set me up since D1 and lfischl tried it at D2 out the blue, one of my main reasons to scum read both.

[rdrivera2005]

Very confident Towncore:

damo
RHK

These players have been solving in a way I would not expect scum. If either of them are Mafia then great acting job.

Probably Town:

Jamiet

I am well lauded as having 100% accuracy in assessing Jamiet's alignment. I'm too tired to recall why he is Town. But one big reason is that his reaction to Balki D1 seemed to not come from being teammates. If they were teammates, Jamiet would have deathtunneled Balki D1 and that absolutely did not happen.

Unsure:

Bunny
lfisch
rdr

I actually have some good vibes on rdr. But I have thought so little about these players that I can't say confidently where they are.

Scum:

Pirate
Flav
Bozo

I have covered why Pirate is Mafia. Essentially, his lurking does not match his usual Town meta when "too busy". He has shown nuance this game that shows he is reading the thread. This is contradictory of the persona he has crafted, where he claims he is too busy and overwhelmed.

I looked at Flav's last game and I think he has done a good acting job this game.

He does play this way, critiquing players reads and play. Focusing on setup stuff. Totally freaking out about obvious jokes, etc.

The difference is that he has dialed up these qualities to 11. This game he is VERY focused on heckling, and has almost exclusively focused everything but forming authentic reads of players.

If you read through M89 you will see how much less focused he is on heckling and how he actually does develop reads in that game. Though yes, it turns out it is normal for him to pounce on little insignificant things and then treat them like they are important (like Fox's spreadsheet).

Bozo is the one player I could be wrong about. But his play today seems extremely focused on controlling Town and attempting to force a MK. He protects his teammate, Pirate by assuming the RB means Pirate is Town. He tries to focus us on brainbomb's incorrect reads to MK Jamiet or sweetandcool.

I also think he took that opportunity N1 to further pit me against Bunny, and hopefully the rest of Town, by suggesting Bunny was trying to set me up for a MK when Bunny said how awful of a team player I was.

Mafia must be on the verge of winning, so they are pulling all the stops by claiming RB and Lawman. It's easy to imagine they thought Town would likely follow meta by not flipping the RB or the Lawman claim today. I think Bozo can get away with this play because in reality he does have a gun, it's just for Mafia. I think their plan today was to either MK Jamiet or sweetandcool, or eventually push lurkers so long as it's not Pirate.

Sweet, I can see this scenario with Bozo power wolfing, but honestly if this is the case scum already won, so I am disregarding this possibility and playing considering Bozo is town with a gun.

[bozotheclown]

Very confident Towncore:

damo
RHK

These players have been solving in a way I would not expect scum. If either of them are Mafia then great acting job.

Probably Town:

Jamiet

I am well lauded as having 100% accuracy in assessing Jamiet's alignment. I'm too tired to recall why he is Town. But one big reason is that his reaction to Balki D1 seemed to not come from being teammates. If they were teammates, Jamiet would have deathtunneled Balki D1 and that absolutely did not happen.

Unsure:

Bunny
lfisch
rdr

I actually have some good vibes on rdr. But I have thought so little about these players that I can't say confidently where they are.

Scum:

Pirate
Flav
Bozo

I have covered why Pirate is Mafia. Essentially, his lurking does not match his usual Town meta when "too busy". He has shown nuance this game that shows he is reading the thread. This is contradictory of the persona he has crafted, where he claims he is too busy and overwhelmed.

I looked at Flav's last game and I think he has done a good acting job this game.

He does play this way, critiquing players reads and play. Focusing on setup stuff. Totally freaking out about obvious jokes, etc.

The difference is that he has dialed up these qualities to 11. This game he is VERY focused on heckling, and has almost exclusively focused everything but forming authentic reads of players.

If you read through M89 you will see how much less focused he is on heckling and how he actually does develop reads in that game. Though yes, it turns out it is normal for him to pounce on little insignificant things and then treat them like they are important (like Fox's spreadsheet).

Bozo is the one player I could be wrong about. But his play today seems extremely focused on controlling Town and attempting to force a MK. He protects his teammate, Pirate by assuming the RB means Pirate is Town. He tries to focus us on brainbomb's incorrect reads to MK Jamiet or sweetandcool.

I also think he took that opportunity N1 to further pit me against Bunny, and hopefully the rest of Town, by suggesting Bunny was trying to set me up for a MK when Bunny said how awful of a team player I was.

Mafia must be on the verge of winning, so they are pulling all the stops by claiming RB and Lawman. It's easy to imagine they thought Town would likely follow meta by not flipping the RB or the Lawman claim today. I think Bozo can get away with this play because in reality he does have a gun, it's just for Mafia. I think their plan today was to either MK Jamiet or sweetandcool, or eventually push lurkers so long as it's not Pirate.

Sweet, I can see this scenario with Bozo power wolfing, but honestly if this is the case scum already won, so I am disregarding this possibility and playing considering Bozo is town with a gun.

I somewhat expected one of the mafia to do that D3.

[Jamiet99uk]

It is half time in the football. I don't see much else having been posted that I need to address. I'm here for 10 mins.

[Jamiet99uk]

@DemonRHK: Are you just going to sit there alone on a one-vote wagon?

[DemonRHK]

@DemonRHK: Are you just going to sit there alone on a one-vote wagon?

What do you fucking suggest? Tie up that 5-4 so I die instead?

[rdrivera2005]

I know it has a lot of confirmation bias involved but Flavius moving his vote to King when lfischl get in the lead looks so like a scum push to a win today.

But then I see Demon reason to not vote lfischl and it looks so weird I start to think I might be wrong on him.

Anyway, at this point only someone changing from King to lfischl affects the final result.

[Jamiet99uk]

@DemonRHK: Are you just going to sit there alone on a one-vote wagon?

What do you fucking suggest? Tie up that 5-4 so I die instead?

Okay, okay, calm down Jamie.

[Jamiet99uk]

I know it has a lot of confirmation bias involved but Flavius moving his vote to King when lfischl get in the lead looks so like a scum push to a win today.

But then I see Demon reason to not vote lfischl and it looks so weird I start to think I might be wrong on him.

Anyway, at this point only someone changing from King to lfischl affects the final result.

Or we could all flashwagon Bozo.

[Jamiet99uk]

Anyway back to the fitba.

[rdrivera2005]

@DemonRHK: Are you just going to sit there alone on a one-vote wagon?

What do you fucking suggest? Tie up that 5-4 so I die instead?

If you had voted before Flav wouldn't be able to do this change. Just saying.

[DemonRHK]

@DemonRHK: Are you just going to sit there alone on a one-vote wagon?

What do you fucking suggest? Tie up that 5-4 so I die instead?

If you had voted before Flav wouldn't be able to do this change. Just saying.

And why would I vote the option I think is less likely to be scum?

Fish's absence in the game thread has felt borderline malicious.

[sweetandcool]

Very confident Towncore:

damo
RHK

These players have been solving in a way I would not expect scum. If either of them are Mafia then great acting job.

Probably Town:

Jamiet

I am well lauded as having 100% accuracy in assessing Jamiet's alignment. I'm too tired to recall why he is Town. But one big reason is that his reaction to Balki D1 seemed to not come from being teammates. If they were teammates, Jamiet would have deathtunneled Balki D1 and that absolutely did not happen.

Unsure:

Bunny
lfisch
rdr

I actually have some good vibes on rdr. But I have thought so little about these players that I can't say confidently where they are.

Scum:

Pirate
Flav
Bozo

I have covered why Pirate is Mafia. Essentially, his lurking does not match his usual Town meta when "too busy". He has shown nuance this game that shows he is reading the thread. This is contradictory of the persona he has crafted, where he claims he is too busy and overwhelmed.

I looked at Flav's last game and I think he has done a good acting job this game.

He does play this way, critiquing players reads and play. Focusing on setup stuff. Totally freaking out about obvious jokes, etc.

The difference is that he has dialed up these qualities to 11. This game he is VERY focused on heckling, and has almost exclusively focused everything but forming authentic reads of players.

If you read through M89 you will see how much less focused he is on heckling and how he actually does develop reads in that game. Though yes, it turns out it is normal for him to pounce on little insignificant things and then treat them like they are important (like Fox's spreadsheet).

Bozo is the one player I could be wrong about. But his play today seems extremely focused on controlling Town and attempting to force a MK. He protects his teammate, Pirate by assuming the RB means Pirate is Town. He tries to focus us on brainbomb's incorrect reads to MK Jamiet or sweetandcool.

I also think he took that opportunity N1 to further pit me against Bunny, and hopefully the rest of Town, by suggesting Bunny was trying to set me up for a MK when Bunny said how awful of a team player I was.

Mafia must be on the verge of winning, so they are pulling all the stops by claiming RB and Lawman. It's easy to imagine they thought Town would likely follow meta by not flipping the RB or the Lawman claim today. I think Bozo can get away with this play because in reality he does have a gun, it's just for Mafia. I think their plan today was to either MK Jamiet or sweetandcool, or eventually push lurkers so long as it's not Pirate.

Sweet, I can see this scenario with Bozo power wolfing, but honestly if this is the case scum already won, so I am disregarding this possibility and playing considering Bozo is town with a gun.

Wait, why would Mafia have already won?

Even if we have no active lawmen, and if scum Bozo has a gun, if we DK Mafia, then it is 6-2, then after NK 5-2.

So we have a chance. Though yeah, Town Bozo who shoots with accuracy would be a boon for Town.

But in that scenario, Bozos reads seem pretty off so that might actually be worse than Mafia Bozo.

[bozotheclown]

Predictions of the final 3 mafia:

bozo: RHK, Jamie, sweetandcool
sweetandcool: Flavius, kingofthepirates, bozo
Jamie: bozo, lfischl, kingofthepirates
rdrivera: lfischl, Jamie, Flavius
BunnyGo: kingofthepirates, lfischl, Jamie
damo: kingofthepirates, lfischl, RHK
RHK: Flavius, lfischl, rdrivera
lfischl: Jamie, kingofthepirates, rdrivera
kingofthepirates: Flavius, lfischl, ?
Flavius: sweetandcool, rdrivera, Jamie

It seems that kingofthepirates and lfischl are going to get DKed by town at some point. I am not convinced they are not the mafia's mis-kill targets, but if either one is mafia, they are likely getting bussed.

It looks like the votes are locked in and kingofthepirates is going to be the D3 DK, so I think the best use of the gun is to target lfischl to accelerate the town DKs. If they are both town, I think town is going to lose, so hopefully one is mafia and town still has a chance D4.

I have ordered lfischl as the gun target.

[bozotheclown]

##VOTE Jamie

[sweetandcool]

I know it has a lot of confirmation bias involved but Flavius moving his vote to King when lfischl get in the lead looks so like a scum push to a win today.

But then I see Demon reason to not vote lfischl and it looks so weird I start to think I might be wrong on him.

Anyway, at this point only someone changing from King to lfischl affects the final result.

If we are in KILO (Mafia has two guns) then they have the luxury to jump onto lfischl at the last moment.

Flav has positioned himself to reasonably jump to lfisch, even if he currently is on Pirate. Same with Bozo, who mentions offhand to kill lfisch if everyone really wants to kill a lurker.

Mafia is just trying to steal our resolve by bussing. Pirate is the right choice!