MAFIA 64 - The Z Files - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[BobMcBob]

Having reread celaph, I don't really see what all the fuss was about. The guy looked pretty good in iso, and I couldn't find anything that warranted 7 votes on him in an hour. Overall I'd give him townlean and I'd like to hear someone explain the case on him, because I'll admit I can't really see it.

[Bonatogether]

Having reread celaph, I don't really see what all the fuss was about. The guy looked pretty good in iso, and I couldn't find anything that warranted 7 votes on him in an hour. Overall I'd give him townlean and I'd like to hear someone explain the case on him, because I'll admit I can't really see it.

He had a relatively big shift in tone to be more jokey, when last game and he was faking being serious he was PR.

[BobMcBob]

Having reread celaph, I don't really see what all the fuss was about. The guy looked pretty good in iso, and I couldn't find anything that warranted 7 votes on him in an hour. Overall I'd give him townlean and I'd like to hear someone explain the case on him, because I'll admit I can't really see it.

He had a relatively big shift in tone to be more jokey, when last game and he was faking being serious he was PR.

I didn't notice many jokes either, he seemed mostly serious. Although if the case is mostly meta stuff that would make sense.

[Bonatogether]

Having reread celaph, I don't really see what all the fuss was about. The guy looked pretty good in iso, and I couldn't find anything that warranted 7 votes on him in an hour. Overall I'd give him townlean and I'd like to hear someone explain the case on him, because I'll admit I can't really see it.

He had a relatively big shift in tone to be more jokey, when last game and he was faking being serious he was PR.

I didn't notice many jokes either, he seemed mostly serious. Although if the case is mostly meta stuff that would make sense.

m62, where he was VT, he was very down to earth and such. m63, where he was doc, he felt artificially down to earth. Now he has more jokes than either, so I think he's overcorrected to hide.

[bozotheclown]

I am sorry I missed EOD. I would not have had much of a preference between lfischl and celaph. Approaching EOD it looked like it was VT vs VT, I was surprising to see that lfischl was the JOAT.

celaph came very close to being the DK without claiming anything besides VT, if he is not town he was taking a chance that he would survive when he could have claimed something to survive D1 and forced a CC, or possibly get lucky and claim a town PR that was not dealt.

Bonatogether's voting was supposedly all about forcing ties and making closer wagons, but he violated this 2 times with regard to rdrivera. If rdrivera is scum, Bonatogether could be his partner.

[bozotheclown]

I'm back from dinner, so I'm going to explain what I was doing, and what I think other people were doing.

I saw there was two minutes on the clock and tied it, since suddenly all factions have diverging incentives and enough time to react. Ghug votes celaph (from ezio) seconds after, so I don't think he saw my tie beforehand. This puts celaph up 1. Then Hellenic Riot votes lfischl, coming from rdr. I'm not sure if he saw my post before he voted, but this re-ties it. I then see both of these and that it's tied, and freak out, since I didn't want a tie at T-0:00, so I switch back to lfischl. HR presumably also sees this and tries to switch back to celaph, but EOD is called basically simultaneously. It would have been a tie except for jamie's ruling, which was extremely lucky for us, as it happened, even if it resulted in the joat getting voted out.

I take full responsibility for almost fucking it up, and I'm not gonna do anything similarly stupid again.

Why was it "extremely lucky" that we killed the JOAT instead of having no kill?

[Hamilton Brian]

Not sure you have a lot of ground to stand on accusing people of EOD vote-tying shenanigans.

Yeah, I'm not really blaming HR. I just wanted to annoy him.

I tied the vote with eight minutes left though. I don't see how trying to break the tie at the end reflects poorly on me.

I don't think trying to break the tie reflects poorly on you. In a vacuum I'd dislike that you didn't end up on celaph, but I think it's reasonable to accept that you were trying to break the tie right at EOD.

But I think your Ezio vote is something you'd do as scum to try to mimic your "make the votes interesting" tactics, and I dislike that you did that instead of pushing the celaph wagon more.

Feel like this is town!kgray. I think pushing voting rationale.

[Bonatogether]

I'm back from dinner, so I'm going to explain what I was doing, and what I think other people were doing.

I saw there was two minutes on the clock and tied it, since suddenly all factions have diverging incentives and enough time to react. Ghug votes celaph (from ezio) seconds after, so I don't think he saw my tie beforehand. This puts celaph up 1. Then Hellenic Riot votes lfischl, coming from rdr. I'm not sure if he saw my post before he voted, but this re-ties it. I then see both of these and that it's tied, and freak out, since I didn't want a tie at T-0:00, so I switch back to lfischl. HR presumably also sees this and tries to switch back to celaph, but EOD is called basically simultaneously. It would have been a tie except for jamie's ruling, which was extremely lucky for us, as it happened, even if it resulted in the joat getting voted out.

I take full responsibility for almost fucking it up, and I'm not gonna do anything similarly stupid again.

Why was it "extremely lucky" that we killed the JOAT instead of having no kill?

Because we didn't know that he was JOAT. The choice we had was scummy lurker or tie, and one of those is a better option than another. We made the best decision with the information available.

[bozotheclown]

Why would you be higher?

It would be a bad shot in the sense that I'm town, but from the vig prospective my flip gives lots of info.

Yes kill this one please

Do you not think celaph is likely town for his lack of claim to avoid the DK?

[bozotheclown]

I'm back from dinner, so I'm going to explain what I was doing, and what I think other people were doing.

I saw there was two minutes on the clock and tied it, since suddenly all factions have diverging incentives and enough time to react. Ghug votes celaph (from ezio) seconds after, so I don't think he saw my tie beforehand. This puts celaph up 1. Then Hellenic Riot votes lfischl, coming from rdr. I'm not sure if he saw my post before he voted, but this re-ties it. I then see both of these and that it's tied, and freak out, since I didn't want a tie at T-0:00, so I switch back to lfischl. HR presumably also sees this and tries to switch back to celaph, but EOD is called basically simultaneously. It would have been a tie except for jamie's ruling, which was extremely lucky for us, as it happened, even if it resulted in the joat getting voted out.

I take full responsibility for almost fucking it up, and I'm not gonna do anything similarly stupid again.

Why was it "extremely lucky" that we killed the JOAT instead of having no kill?

Because we didn't know that he was JOAT. The choice we had was scummy lurker or tie, and one of those is a better option than another. We made the best decision with the information available.

We knew he was the JOAT at the time you said we were "extremely lucky" that he was killed.

[Bonatogether]

Why was it "extremely lucky" that we killed the JOAT instead of having no kill?

Because we didn't know that he was JOAT. The choice we had was scummy lurker or tie, and one of those is a better option than another. We made the best decision with the information available.

We knew he was the JOAT at the time you said we were "extremely lucky" that he was killed.

But we didn't when we voted him and avoided a tie. I'm writing it from the perspective of what we knew at that time.

[BobMcBob]

I'm logging off for tonight, I may be back briefly before EoD like the past two days.

[bozotheclown]

Discard claims:

Options are stating a specific role, town/not town, town/mafia/alien, or choosing not to answer.

Bob: not town
Bonatogether: Mafia Goon
bozo: Mafia GF
brainbomb: Mafia Goon
BunnyGo: Mafia RB
​celaph: Mafia Goon
damo: VT
DemonRHK: town
Donny: town
emc: town
Ezio:
ghug: Mafia Goon
Hamilton: chooses not to answer
HR: Mafia Loud Role Cop
jasnah: Mafia Lover
kgray: chooses not to answer
lfischl: Alien Bulletproof Lover
Macca:
Mania​c: Commuter
rdrivera: town
Vecna: VT

Did I miss anything?

kgray and Hamilton, are you still refusing to answer?

Ezio and Macca, are you still ignoring this?

Bob, are you still not saying what non-town faction you discarded?

[bozotheclown]

I'm logging off for tonight, I may be back briefly before EoD like the past two days.

If I did not miss you doing so already, can you at least tell us the faction of your discard before EON in case you do not survive?

[Bonatogether]

kgray and Hamilton, are you still refusing to answer?

Ezio and Macca, are you still ignoring this?

Bob, are you still not saying what non-town faction you discarded?

We can't trust anything from now on with the claims cause they could have discussed it in their QT

[kgray]

The only scum I've seen the past two games move close to deadlines in TvT situations is Jamie who did it both D1 M63 and D2 M62. In the case of ghug specifically, I think it also shows more thought and concern than I was seeing earlier in the day. He cared about the outcome of that vote in a way that I think scum ghug was less likely to do.

What do you mean, ghug cared about the outcome of the vote? You think he had a strong preference of who was killed?

Less who was killed and more that someone died. My gut is that scum ghug is happy to sit on my wagon. To answer @ezio's follow up question: It requires boldness and confidence to put your name out there at the end of the vote. He risks looking bad until I flip. You've played in different games than me, but the scum I've played with haven't tended to be that bold.

Slightly unrelated, I would like to add Bona to this list of voting people making them look good. I intentionally left him off originally because I was taken aback by his change in tone this night, but on second thought I think the town motivations for doing so are just as strong, if not stronger, than the scum ones.

I think it'd look really suspicious for ghug to be completely uninvolved/uninterested at EOD, so I'd never expect scum!ghug to just sit on your wagon and watch. And I think not caring who is killed, and just that someone dies, is pretty scummy. If you're town (or even if you're scum but ghug isn't in your faction), you should find it incredibly suspicious that he didn't care much which of you or lfischl died. The fact that you're not coming to that conclusion really bothers me.

[kgray]

Now my ghug scumdar is going off.

What about this don't you like?

I think it is about the ties, which I believe for the last two votes which lines up with vc. But moving off onto ezio for ties and having both wagons voted for feels like ghug flippity floppy he does as scum. Although thinking about if it was his scum partner he probably makes more of an effort to save celaph beforehand.
But there is a progression in iso from minute 15 left where he goes celaph then lfi but then in reply to Hr say a very simple does not seem as smart, and that feels like shading all the celaph voters while then moving to ezio next post while claiming celaph scared him as scum. That rubs me wrong for some reason.

I believe ghug was saying that celaph doesn't seem as smart this game, which was why he was scumreading him. He wasn't shading celaph voters.

[kgray]

Over on page 70-71, the entire discussion just rubbed me the wrong way. It was confusing and unproductive and I didn't like it, and not for any particular person I don't think. Although maybe it was jasnah being confusing and stubborn and everybody engaging with it in an equally confusing way.

What is your read on Jasnah Bob?

My gut has been consistently saying obnoxious town. Maybe I'm wrong and I probably missed half her posts but that's the way it's come off so far.

Do you think town just because you think she's obnoxious? Or is there something else?

[kgray]

What is your read on Jasnah Bob?

My gut has been consistently saying obnoxious town. Maybe I'm wrong and I probably missed half her posts but that's the way it's come off so far.

I have a similar read too.

Same question, Donny. Is she towny because she's obnoxious or for other reasons?

[bozotheclown]

42/68*42 = 25.94
16/68*42 = 9.88
9/68*42 = 5.56
1/68*42 = 0.62

The most likely distributions of dealt cards are:
1. 26 town, 10 mafia, 5 alien, 1 SK
2. 26 town, 10 mafia, 6 alien, 0 SK

It is interesting that we have 8 mafia discard claims and only 1 alien discard claim.

While those with scum roles may be giving fake discard claims, there may be as few as 3 scum, and there is not much incentive for scum to take the risk of giving a fake claim, although it is possible someone who was dealt a Mafia PR and a Mafia Goon would claim to have discarded the role they kept.