M1009 [HIDDEN]

[xorxes]

@bb, after your failed vote for Jamie N2 you have turned around and have townread him ever since. This is uncharacteristic for you, not second guessing yourself about someone even once. Can you explain what makes you so sure that Jamie is town?

[xorxes]

@Jamie, what do you think of brainbomb's argument that whoever made the decisions for the N3 kill and rb must have been someone much more competent than whoever made the decisions for the N1 and N2 kills?

[xorxes]

I have reviewed the last 2 games where goldfinger was scum, and found that he did a reasonable amount of bussing, but not much early in the game. Of course he was not in this game early. I did come across this post by xorxes in M22 that I found interesting:

"golfinger has been severely buddying me, which is why I started suspecting him. He's also the strongest contender for "let's nightkill HR because he's HR". I was also not a fan of his EON reads."

Compare that to this post:

That may be a pocketing attempt, since I scumread him and townread you. But I certainly would not base a scumread of goldie on that post alone. "near 100%" does seem a bit extreme, but it may be hyperbole.

How many years ago was M22? And I don't see the contradiction that you see. Certainly when I feel someone is pocketing me that makes me more alert to them. I don't see how that contradicts that that alone is not a reason to scumread someone. Unless you equate "start suspecting" with "scumread", there's no contradiction.

And even if something I say now did contradict something I said several years ago, which doesn't appear to be the case in this instance... It worries me a bit that you are wasting so much time reading those games instead of this one.

[xorxes]

I don't know that Jamie and foodcoats would work together as scum teammates to try to get me lynched over the joke about Chaqa and Kakarroto. I think it is more likely foodcoats fabricated his scum read of me based off of what Jamie said, maybe he saw it as an opportunity to get a mislynch. I also find it very hard to believe foodcoats really though any of what he was saying was true.

I think a Jamie-food team is indeed extremely unlikely. The thing you point out is one thing, but there are also several interactions between them (I posted a couple of them when I did my food iso) that make it hard to believe they would be a team.

This means one of the current wagons is very likely town.

Why do you think it's more likely that food fabricated his scumread of you based off of Jamiet's nonsense than that Jamie made up his nonsense to appear as if he was scumhunting and food just fell for it? Who do you think is smarter, Jamie or food? One of them was obviously not being too smart there, the other one was pretending not to understand what they were doing.

[bozotheclown]

I don't know that Jamie and foodcoats would work together as scum teammates to try to get me lynched over the joke about Chaqa and Kakarroto. I think it is more likely foodcoats fabricated his scum read of me based off of what Jamie said, maybe he saw it as an opportunity to get a mislynch. I also find it very hard to believe foodcoats really though any of what he was saying was true.

I think a Jamie-food team is indeed extremely unlikely. The thing you point out is one thing, but there are also several interactions between them (I posted a couple of them when I did my food iso) that make it hard to believe they would be a team.

This means one of the current wagons is very likely town.

Why do you think it's more likely that food fabricated his scumread of you based off of Jamiet's nonsense than that Jamie made up his nonsense to appear as if he was scumhunting and food just fell for it? Who do you think is smarter, Jamie or food? One of them was obviously not being too smart there, the other one was pretending not to understand what they were doing.

Here are their first comments about that joke:

My research also shows that Chaqa and Kakarroto drive the same kind of car, both watch "Tho Office", and were roommates in college.

Wait a second.
Wait a second.

Are these things true?

If so, you gotta wonder.

Chaqa gonna forget about a guy he bathed with in college, and spent so many hours watching "Tho Office" with?

I guess that is kinda..... suspicious.

bozo feels stuck, but I am interested in seeing the threads in which Kak and Chaq claim to be college roommates. That could really damn or acquit.

I'd absolutely vote emc now. Super weak driveby just now.

Between Tom and worcej, I'd lean worcej, but I want to see if worcej has further response to xorxes' case or his wagon in general. But I don't know that I could vote worcej, actually. There's something bananas about the whole line. Honestly, thinking about my own scum play, I feel like it's more likely scum!xorxes tunneling some weird little discrepancy in worcej's posts. Yeah, no. xorxes more likely scum than worcej. I would vote xorxes.

And I have no read on Tom and I'm not going to get an iso off as I need to fix my snowblower before dark, but I'll keep slacking on that to check in on this.

Give us the goods bozo.

Jamie's response sounded to me like he knew it was a joke, despite what he said later. foodcoats response sounds like he took it seriously. I think it is very likely they both understood it to be a joke, and fabricated their interpretation for the purpose of scum reading me. Maybe they both did this as scum, but I can see Jamie using this to scum read me even if he is town if he suspected I was not town. As I think rdrivera said, town lies sometimes also. However, I am very confident that foodcoats would not pretend to not understand the joke for the purpose of scum reading me if he is town. So, regardless of whether Jamie is scum or not, I suspect foodcoats for what I suspect is a fabricated scum read, for not only this but for other reasons he has scum read me.

[bozotheclown]

Actually, I too think bozo looks unappetizing. bozo parked on Chaqa for ages and then swung onto Neph to push the wagon up ahead 4/2 with 30 minutes to go, providing this justification:



Not the greatest reason to stack off there. bozo also repeatedly hammered on Chaqa, even saying after voting for Neph that they really preferred to hang Chaqa or worcej, despite it being bozo who in leaving Chaqa dropped Chaqa down to a 1 vote wagon (the wagons were 3/2/2, then 4/2/1 with some other vanities because of bozo's switch), and pushed Neph up into true leadership position in doing so.

##VOTE bozotheclown

I tried for most of D1 to get votes for Chaqa and apparently was only able to convince damo to vote for him. (Maybe it is not a coincidence that damo is no longer here). I voted for Nephthys when I was leaving before EOD because it did not seem likely that Chaqa would be lynched, and I thought Nephthys was more likely to be scum than the other wagons. If I had been able to be online at EOD, I would have waited longer to change my vote, but unless others decided to vote for Chaqa, or a wagon on worcej materialized, I would have ended up voting for Nephthys.

Also, your analysis contains an error, the wagons were 3/2/2/2/2/2, so after my vote change, the wagons were 4/2/2/2/2/1, not 4/2/1. I addressed all of the 2 vote wagons with this post:

I would lynch Chaqa or worcej, but Nephthys looks suspicious as well. My guess is that damo and Jamie are both town, as well as emc. I am not sure about Tom. I will probably be on the road at EOD, I will check in from mobile if possible.

Since you find my vote for Nephthys suspicious, can you tell me what potential scum motivation you see in changing my vote to Nephthys when I did? From what you said, the only thing I can conclude is that you think I might have been protecting Chaqa.

My bad on the counts, though it still dropped your alleged preferred candidate out of the running.

The scum play there is shoring up a promising mislynch at an appropriate time.

Here is another example of what I suspect was a fabricated case. I stated I was leaving and was going to miss EOD when I placed that vote, and made it clear that I preferred lynching Nephthys over all of the other wagons besides Chaqa. I had been arguing for lynching Chaqa all day, it was fairly clear it was not going to happen, so I went with my next choice among the available wagons.

Also, foodcoats was already voting for Nephthys, and when he changed his vote from Flavius to Nephthys, the vote count was Nephthys 3, Flavius 2, Chaqa 2, Jamie 2, damo 1, emc 1. After he voted for Nephthys, the vote count was Nephthys 4, Chaqa 2, Jamie 2, Flavius 1, damo 1, emc 1. This is almost exactly the same thing he was supposedly scum reading me for. So, either foodcoats does not really believe that "The scum play there is shoring up a promising mislynch at an appropriate time", or he made a mistake as scum and made a scum play.

[bozotheclown]

Applying the case foodcoats made against me, Flavius could have been his scum teammate. Looking at his D1 vote for Nephthys, it looks like foodcoats is fabricating reasons to scum read Nephthys after not doing so before Nephthys started getting votes:

Kakarroto, damo, and worcej are currently townleans for me. Kakarroto is doing work, and I still don't believe scum!damo claims doctor, despite worcej's good arguments to the contrary - which, nonetheless, put worcej in my town camp.

I have to call Flavius null until I can better parse their style. Chaqa, emc, and rdrivera are nullish for me also. Worth mentioning I don't put a lot of credence in rdr's townslip; rdr strikes me as a cunning player, and the type who reads the setup. Not leading me to a scumlean yet either, though.

bozo started the game off weird. Much sillier and brusquer than usual. bozo is usually the paragon of seriousness.

I also called xorxes saucy early on for what I thought was cracking wise about a Reaver. xorxes is also usually pretty serious, from my perspective. I would put this aside except two other people have noticed xorxes acting out of sorts; if I recall correctly, one said xorxes was laid back, another that xorxes was not hunting as usual.

My initial ping on Jamie still stands, but I also haven't vibed on anything since then. But I would think scum!Jamie is experienced enough to have corrected course after starting the game off too gravely.

Tom and Nephthys give me the heebiejeebies. But, actually, taking the time to read their isos, I'll give Tom the pass since their posts are not bad, if infrequent and a bit... reactionary? Nephthys's iso by contrast is off. It sort of... caromes? Pointlessly? I'm not sure. It unsettles my gut. I don't like Neph's Chaqa vote; Chaqa's cop comment looks scummy, but Chaqa is conversational about this game no matter what. Second on the wagon looks a little too good. Picking up on what someone else had said and choosing to settle there without contributing much else to the game... it's a little too convenient.

I have to assume that xorxes and bozo cannot both be scum for being a little more saucy than usual. I think I'll put my faith in the fact that two others were pinged by xorxes and give bozo the pass for now.

Making my scum team Jamie, xorxes, and Nephthys.

xorxes, what will you do if I join your wagon?

##VOTE Nephthys

Some of this makes me question if xorxes could be his partner, but then the last line looks suspicious.

[bozotheclown]

So im only up to page 25 but I think I've picked up a few things:

-emc went on about chipotle way too much to be likely scum. I think scum!emc would be like "i should cool it on these burrito jokes" two jokes earlier.
-i haven't read brain yet but flav was super scummy.
-rdr was way too humble about the townslip attributed to them. They refuted it over multiple posts. Im starting to wonder if it isn't an attempt at reverse psychology from scum!rdr

That all said I have a very strong inkling that the answer is to

##VOTE Jamiet99uk

Here is where foodcoats places his only D3 vote. I am not sure what the "only up to page 25" reference means, but if he meant he was rereading and had only reread to page 25, which was still in D1, I do not know how it justifies his vote for Jamie.

[bozotheclown]

Well I'm glad at least rdr and emc are sorted, they were sort of in my tinfoil-town slots. But I don't think I would've voted for them now anyway.

Other than that... my best theory is Jamie-bozo masterclass scum theatre at EON for a deepthreat. Combined with the fact I've been hot and cold on these two all game I realize I'm tunneling but Jamie "making a lead wagon" just looks like bussing to me.

##VOTE bozotheclown

So if there's no reason to doubt emc outside of a counterclaim, and there's no janitor, there's no reason to doubt emc… why is goldfinger undercutting the claim? Weak scumplay or superweak town? We've as good as got two clears, I don't see any town perspective for this.

@goldfinger who are your three scumreads?

##VOTE goldfinger

##VOTE bozotheclown

Bozo is above goldfinger on my spectrum (bozo > gold > Jamie > brainbomb > xorxes) so I will park here to even the wagons until emc and rdr weigh in. Going into meetings now but will be back for EOD.

I also thought of another thing that makes me think xorxes is town (although this is of little relevance because I don't think xorxes is a lynch candidate): xorxes was really really adamant about both worcej and Tom. I don't think scum would be that adamant and allow the lynches to go through that way.

##VOTE goldfinger

I suspect on D4 foodcoats was jumping back and forth between me and goldfinger based on whether he thought there was an opportunity to mislynch me.

[bozotheclown]

I have reviewed the last 2 games where goldfinger was scum, and found that he did a reasonable amount of bussing, but not much early in the game. Of course he was not in this game early. I did come across this post by xorxes in M22 that I found interesting:

"golfinger has been severely buddying me, which is why I started suspecting him. He's also the strongest contender for "let's nightkill HR because he's HR". I was also not a fan of his EON reads."

Compare that to this post:

That may be a pocketing attempt, since I scumread him and townread you. But I certainly would not base a scumread of goldie on that post alone. "near 100%" does seem a bit extreme, but it may be hyperbole.

How many years ago was M22? And I don't see the contradiction that you see. Certainly when I feel someone is pocketing me that makes me more alert to them. I don't see how that contradicts that that alone is not a reason to scumread someone. Unless you equate "start suspecting" with "scumread", there's no contradiction.

And even if something I say now did contradict something I said several years ago, which doesn't appear to be the case in this instance... It worries me a bit that you are wasting so much time reading those games instead of this one.

What am I supposed to equate "start suspecting" with if not "scumread"?

[bozotheclown]

Dude you literally MADE SHIT UP!!!! do you even know your own fucking meta?!?!?!

Are you still talking about this:

My research also shows that Chaqa and Kakarroto drive the same kind of car, both watch "Tho Office", and were roommates in college.

Do you think I posted that thinking everyone would believe it was true, despite that Kakarroto was still in the game, and lynch goldfinger because of it? If so, why do you think I would do that if we were scum partners?

I didn't know goldfinger was scum when this was at issue.

And I already explained myself twice now.

Now I'm not so sure if you're tunneltown or trying to secure a mislynch for scum. You are badgering and not paying attention to things I've previously explained.

Yes, but I find your explanation just as questionable as your original reaction. For instance, you are still accusing me of making things up. (See relevant definition of joke: "something that is amusing or ridiculous, especially because of being ludicrously inadequate or a sham".)

[Jamiet99uk]

@Jamie, what do you think of brainbomb's argument that whoever made the decisions for the N3 kill and rb must have been someone much more competent than whoever made the decisions for the N1 and N2 kills?

It has a certain amount of merit, in that I don't think the N1 or N2 kills were very well targeted. It was fairly clear Damo was a VT, for example, if you ask me.

[Jamiet99uk]

@EMC:

You are the sole living TOWN PR. We CANNOT afford for you to be a cowardly non-commital wimp until the last moment, like you usually are. It just isn't good enough.

Locate your BALLS and vote your strongest scumread, and in doing so, tell us why you scumread them more than anyone else. Yeah?

YEAH.

I'll give you a helping hand: It's Xorxes, Bozo, or Foodcoats.

I notice emc HAS STILL NOT FOUND HIS BALLS.

PATHETIC.

[xorxes]

@Jamie, what do you think of brainbomb's argument that whoever made the decisions for the N3 kill and rb must have been someone much more competent than whoever made the decisions for the N1 and N2 kills?

It has a certain amount of merit, in that I don't think the N1 or N2 kills were very well targeted. It was fairly clear Damo was a VT, for example, if you ask me.

If it was clear he was a VT, why did you spend most of D1 trying to lynch him?

[Jamiet99uk]

@Jamie, what do you think of brainbomb's argument that whoever made the decisions for the N3 kill and rb must have been someone much more competent than whoever made the decisions for the N1 and N2 kills?

It has a certain amount of merit, in that I don't think the N1 or N2 kills were very well targeted. It was fairly clear Damo was a VT, for example, if you ask me.

If it was clear he was a VT, why did you spend most of D1 trying to lynch him?

I am not on the Mafia team.

I'm saying they ought to have been able to see he wasn't a PR.

They knew he wasn't Mafia. They know who is Mafia. Yeah?

[Jamiet99uk]

Please do keep asking me questions.

If you lynch me, the game is over.

Don't do that.

[xorxes]

Jamie's response sounded to me like he knew it was a joke, despite what he said later. foodcoats response sounds like he took it seriously. I think it is very likely they both understood it to be a joke, and fabricated their interpretation for the purpose of scum reading me. Maybe they both did this as scum, but I can see Jamie using this to scum read me even if he is town if he suspected I was not town. As I think rdrivera said, town lies sometimes also. However, I am very confident that foodcoats would not pretend to not understand the joke for the purpose of scum reading me if he is town. So, regardless of whether Jamie is scum or not, I suspect foodcoats for what I suspect is a fabricated scum read, for not only this but for other reasons he has scum read me.

Jamie's response indeed sounded like he was continuing the joke. When he voted for you based on that, I even thought the vote was towny enough, because at the time Tom was ahead by two o three votes and it was still early in the day and having a competitive wagon is always better than piling on a runaway wagon this early. But since Jamie had expressed suspicion of Tom as well, my thinking was that he would vote for Tom in the end.

When it was 4-3-3 and getting close to the end the move I was expecting was Jamie's to Tom, because in my mind his vote for you was based on a joke.

I understand how you can read food's post as scummy, but it can just as easily be read as genuine. I don't get why scum!food would jump out of your wagon at that point if all three wagons were town and the wagon he was on was not even in the lead.

When food left your wagon and goldie moved there to fill his place and then Tom moved there, and I said "they" are trying to lynch bozo, goldie got very excited about me saying "they". I think he did not realize Tom had moved when he said that. He must have interpreted "they" as Jamie+goldie. I am only realizing this now. I knew he was excited about catching me knowing something that I shouldn't, but I had not figured out what it could be.

[xorxes]

Please do keep asking me questions.

If you lynch me, the game is over.

Don't do that.

Who do you think is food's teammate and why?

[xorxes]

Here is another example of what I suspect was a fabricated case. I stated I was leaving and was going to miss EOD when I placed that vote, and made it clear that I preferred lynching Nephthys over all of the other wagons besides Chaqa. I had been arguing for lynching Chaqa all day, it was fairly clear it was not going to happen, so I went with my next choice among the available wagons.

Also, foodcoats was already voting for Nephthys, and when he changed his vote from Flavius to Nephthys, the vote count was Nephthys 3, Flavius 2, Chaqa 2, Jamie 2, damo 1, emc 1. After he voted for Nephthys, the vote count was Nephthys 4, Chaqa 2, Jamie 2, Flavius 1, damo 1, emc 1. This is almost exactly the same thing he was supposedly scum reading me for. So, either foodcoats does not really believe that "The scum play there is shoring up a promising mislynch at an appropriate time", or he made a mistake as scum and made a scum play.

But you are agreeing with him that doing that could be a good scum play.

You also know from your own experience that sometimes townies do that for towny reasons.

So this doesn't really scream to me that food is scum. It only says it is consistent with him being scum. But it is also consistent with him being town.

The way I read it, food has been consistently scumhunting from D1. Has he made some bad cases? Yes. Townies often do that, maybe even more often than scum.

Jamie, on the other hand, has been playing most of the game as if performing on a stage. He is not reading the thread very closely. His most pressing concerns today were whether rivera had said who he had saved (he didn't know because he has not been bothering to read, he was curious, probably because they had to guess who the doc would save and he wanted to see if they had guessed right) and wondering whether emc had been roleblocked. You can't get less invested in finding scum than that.

[xorxes]

I have reviewed the last 2 games where goldfinger was scum, and found that he did a reasonable amount of bussing, but not much early in the game. Of course he was not in this game early. I did come across this post by xorxes in M22 that I found interesting:

"golfinger has been severely buddying me, which is why I started suspecting him. He's also the strongest contender for "let's nightkill HR because he's HR". I was also not a fan of his EON reads."

Compare that to this post:

How many years ago was M22? And I don't see the contradiction that you see. Certainly when I feel someone is pocketing me that makes me more alert to them. I don't see how that contradicts that that alone is not a reason to scumread someone. Unless you equate "start suspecting" with "scumread", there's no contradiction.

And even if something I say now did contradict something I said several years ago, which doesn't appear to be the case in this instance... It worries me a bit that you are wasting so much time reading those games instead of this one.

What am I supposed to equate "start suspecting" with if not "scumread"?

Start paying closer attention to what that person is doing, see if there's more evidence, etc, It seems to me there is a difference between noticing that something is out of place and concluding that the person is scum. But this is silly. I will say I contradicted myself if that makes you happy.