Mafia XL - A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum

[damo666]

Predictably Yav votes for me as he sees that as best hope for survival.
I am now giving DrC a town pass for his pass to Squigs

So my scum team is in order of scummiest Yav, Ike, Flash, rdrivera.

Outside possibility of 3 of these + ?

[rdrivera2005]

@rdrivera - I kinda forgot you were playing this game. Have you done anything noteworthy this game? Who do you think is the deep threat for the scum team (I'm asking you since you have been the deep threat for scum in many of the games I have played in)?

Squigs, it hurts my feelings you have forgotten me.. . I already addressed this a bit on my EON post.

Bo posted this near EON:

I won't be here at EOD. If I happen to die (doubt it, but it's possible), the best thing to do in the next day or two is weasel out the hiding scum and I expect that person will be found within the group consisting of flash-RHK-Ike-rdrivera, Ike being my preference among that bunch. The driver is probably in that group. It's possible that more than one of them are scum but the best way to start is by looking for one. My other scumreads worth talking about are yav and Balki. Not really sure who I like for the fourth remaining spot. Otherwise, flipping damo will give us a wealth of valuable information regardless of his role but especially if he is scum, so that should happen at some stage, sooner rather than later. I think he's town though.

I agreed that if we had a deep threat it's probably in this group. I could add DrCJ that have been quieter than usual on this game. I am sure it's not me, I have already pressured Demon, so I guess I will ##vote Flash now, I didn't like the way he reacted to pressure with a “I don't have time/don't care answer” and his vote pattern is trash. And also is always useful to have two wagons.

[ND]

@ND - You haven't posted as much since Xorxes died. Basically you came in and saw Xorxes list. You agreed the Ezio was scum and end voted him. As far as the rest of the list goes, you have ignored it. You definitely haven't addressed the fact that you are third on the list. Also, you townread Yav after the Xorxes flip, even with Yav as the second on the list. That changed after the #millerclaim, but you are still voting for flash.

So basically I am looking at the fact that you:
1) Confidently voted Ezio based on the Xorxes list
2) Threw away the rest of the list

Why did your PoV regarding Ezio change after the Xorxes flip but not your PoV about Yav, you, or DrCJG? Do you think Xorxes reads were not worth pursuing?

Those were just his reads. I was confident after his flip that he had a scum scan on ezio hence my vote. He obviously built that reads list to indicate that in the event of his death. I did not scum read yav until n3 but his comments changed my read. I think there is enough there for a vote. Xorxes couldn't of had a scan on anyone other than the first person on his list. I now agree on yav. He was wrong about me. Cjg I have speculated due to his votes, a few times now, that he could fit, but I'm still kind of null on him. I think flash is scum and am voting on that read.

[rdrivera2005]

Predictably Yav votes for me as he sees that as best hope for survival.
I am now giving DrC a town pass for his pass to Squigs

So my scum team is in order of scummiest Yav, Ike, Flash, rdrivera.

Outside possibility of 3 of these + ?

This over defensive posture is what get you scumread.
If Yav is really scum he voted you probably to detach from his scumbuddies that should be either bussing him hard or trying to build another wagon.

And if he is town he is voting you because he really thinks you are scum.

[yavuzovic]

If I was Ezio's scumbuddy he wouldn't follow CJG at voting me in D2. He voted me as the second voter - who actually makes a wagon a real wagon. Also he didn't leave me after this. I only see this in this scenario:

CJG is also our scummate and we agreed on doing this short lived wagon, but I know I'm not scum and I can't find what to say. If I were mafia I could try to clean my mates but I don't know who is who, and I'm losing my willingness to play. I can't believe how I am this unlucky. I can't clear myself from this so listen my list carefully, I will prepare it after this post and will be useful after you kill me.

[yavuzovic]

ND - I told called him as my top townread days ago but after everything happened between those days, I started to scumread him. He was buddying me early game and I involuntarily 'positive-omgussed' him for townreading me. Isn't this to purpose of buddying? He tried to gain my towncred and when he saw I'm going to flip he turned 180° from his way and started to scumread me. Apart from that I haven't seen anything scummy from him so slight scum

bo_sox - I haven't interacted with him much so I can't really share a real opinion about him. He scumreads me very much. It isn't enough to give him a scumcred however he may be trying to make someone lynched who doesn't belong to his team, if he knows my role. And he thought my mistakes about comparing D1&D2 wagons were scumslips. No they weren't, I'm not that stupid to publicly give wrong information. Also my guts weirdly tell me he is scum but I don't have a concrete evidence. I want to mark him as slight scum

I don't know who to point as scum.

[yavuzovic]

I cannot focus on the game now because I have headache, I hope I can continue reading later.

[brainbomb]

Vote Count Day 4

yavuzovic (6)
Squigs44 DemonRHK flash2015 Balki Bartokomous damo666 bozotheclown
flash2015 (3) ghug ND rdrivera2005
RagingIke297 (2) Durga bo_sox48
damo666 (1) yavuzovic

End-votes (0/8)

Non-votes
DrCJG
RagingIke297
worcej

[ND]

He tried to gain my towncred and when he saw I'm going to flip he turned 180° from his way and started to scumread me.

-snip-

This was part of yav's read on me. He says I start to scum read him when 'he saw I'm going to flip' wth does that mean? I think he is implying he will flip scum here and this is combined with that Miller statement he made. Makes me really think he is scum.

##vote yav.

Let's see

[damo666]

He tried to gain my towncred and when he saw I'm going to flip he turned 180° from his way and started to scumread me.

-snip-

This was part of yav's read on me. He says I start to scum read him when 'he saw I'm going to flip' wth does that mean? I think he is implying he will flip scum here and this is combined with that Miller statement he made. Makes me really think he is scum.

##vote yav.

Let's see

I don't follow this. Are you saying Yav is trying to implicate you as scum? Would'nt this be against wincon? Perhaps I misunderstand. Please explain.

[damo666]

Oh I think I get it. You are townclearing yourself in the case Yav flips scum. Is that it? Bit dodgy!

[ND]

Yav is basically saying repeatedly he is going to flip scum. This is another example of that. I don't know how to explain it better but when he just said that to me I got a major scum vibe.

[ND]

He is saying that me or (people) in general are going to get "towncred" when he flips. Why? He has been implying since night he will flip 'miller'. I argue that he is real scum misdirecting. Needs to be lynched.

[worcej]

Since the box ended up with Squigs, I think it is almost certain that worcej is town as well. If the box had started with scum, I don’t think they would pass it to a town member so early. Worcej also made his box claims at the ideal times, not revealing DrCJG as the second box holder until he had already passed it on, and making sure DrCJG had at least today to use his item in case he is town.

However, I do see reasons why a scum DrCJG would pass the box to a town member, knowing that a town member passed him the box. The primary reason is that if a scum DrCJG got lynched, it would put his box recipient under suspicion. So, I think DrCJG passing the box to Squigs is NAI.

This was also in the back of my mind as well, mostly because it would be the wise strategy for scum to take: take one item and pass back to a known town. The nub strategy would be to keep it in the scum hands the entire time, knowing the oracle can pop.

Scum DrCJG is not a fool and would probably discuss that with said scumteam. I personally feel the scum team has a few good vets on it based on their kill patterns so far.

[yavuzovic]

Hah, I'm not playing against my wincon. I will flip and nothing will prevent this. That was why I'm talking like I already flipped. Also I'm not bussing ND. I will never flip scum so you will see what I mean when I die.

[worcej]

Has anyone asked worcej and drcjg why they passed the box to the person they passed it to?

Worcej - you never really stated that you townread cjg, and after passing, you sounded like you regretted it. Why pass it to cjg in the first place?

DrCJG - You had Balki listed above me in your townreads, but passed it to me instead of Balki. Why? Also, can you remind me why you were townreading me?

I passed it to DrCJG mostly because, in my head, there is no F*ing chance that he is scum for the 5th time in a row (I believe that would be the count atm). Also, he is someone I thought might get off'ed on N1 if town - he is a smart player and if given the chance to actually be town could indeed solve the game.

I began to regret the decision during D2/N2 because I was starting to get some weird vibes from him based on the moves towards peter and his post regarding the box. Now, in retrospect, I think he was trying to protect the fact he had the box and an item.

I'll go ahead and make this even more interesting: I have one of the possible Cloak of Circe - the ones that swap your alignment to scans. Since we don't have a cop, but could have scans, I am announcing this to be in the open. I am glad a scum did not get this because it would make them hard to detect down the road, so even though I wanted a gun, this was an acceptable N1 pull.

@DrCJG - Time for some pressure, what did you get on your turn in the box? What were the results?

Also, @Squigs - why did you not pass the box back to me? Out of curiosity, granted I am not a clear, but that puzzled me because you had the chance to do so.

[DrCJG]

DrCJG, did you consider the NK protection provided by the box when you delivered it N2?

Yes I did. I also considered NK strategies for the mafia, the use of the driver in diverting the box, the doctor trying to save someone, the watcher seeing my visit.

I am still a little confused by your scum!DrCJG being more likely that scum!Worcej line of reasoning... after a couple rereads, I understand you to be saying that scum!Worcej could pass the box among scum (and use up the list function) such that no one ever knew he got the box, but scum!DrCJG would always be somewhat identified as having received the box by town!Worcej... that seems accurate, but I am not sure it accounts for much difference in reads... scum!DrCJG could have passed it to scum but in the final seconds of the next night said it was sent to a person that got NK'd or said he sent it to someone but it got drivered... or since, as town, I couldn't be sure the alignment of the person I was passing to, scum!DrCJG could have passed it to scum and just said he didn't know the alignment of the person he was passing to.

Has anyone asked worcej and drcjg why they passed the box to the person they passed it to?

Worcej - you never really stated that you townread cjg, and after passing, you sounded like you regretted it. Why pass it to cjg in the first place?

DrCJG - You had Balki listed above me in your townreads, but passed it to me instead of Balki. Why? Also, can you remind me why you were townreading me?

I wanted to send my box to someone I thought was town, but was unlikely to be doctored. My thought process being 1) Mafia had targeted an experienced but quieter player N1 (Tom) and would again avoid the obvious towns N2; and 2) If Mafia targeted a likely doctor recipient they would likely also driver their target, which would result in mafia picking the recipient of the box.

I flip flopped between a couple different recipients; Balki was one of them... but in the end I felt like if he was town he was too likely of a doctor/driver target.

As for why I was townreading you.... unfortunately I keep a better record of negatives than positives and a reread knowing you are town would likely not be accurate. I can say that I remember townreading you for criticizing the voting of the jamie/modkill spot. Otherwise, I just gained a townread over time for you.

[DrCJG]

Has anyone asked worcej and drcjg why they passed the box to the person they passed it to?

Worcej - you never really stated that you townread cjg, and after passing, you sounded like you regretted it. Why pass it to cjg in the first place?

DrCJG - You had Balki listed above me in your townreads, but passed it to me instead of Balki. Why? Also, can you remind me why you were townreading me?

I passed it to DrCJG mostly because, in my head, there is no F*ing chance that he is scum for the 5th time in a row (I believe that would be the count atm). Also, he is someone I thought might get off'ed on N1 if town - he is a smart player and if given the chance to actually be town could indeed solve the game.

I began to regret the decision during D2/N2 because I was starting to get some weird vibes from him based on the moves towards peter and his post regarding the box. Now, in retrospect, I think he was trying to protect the fact he had the box and an item.

I'll go ahead and make this even more interesting: I have one of the possible Cloak of Circe - the ones that swap your alignment to scans. Since we don't have a cop, but could have scans, I am announcing this to be in the open. I am glad a scum did not get this because it would make them hard to detect down the road, so even though I wanted a gun, this was an acceptable N1 pull.

@DrCJG - Time for some pressure, what did you get on your turn in the box? What were the results?

Also, @Squigs - why did you not pass the box back to me? Out of curiosity, granted I am not a clear, but that puzzled me because you had the chance to do so.

I have so many questions about some of the things you said here... but... I'll ask them at another time.

As for your question to me... I will let mafia continue to wonder for now... but since you wanted a gun... tell me when and who would you shoot?

[worcej]

As for your question to me... I will let mafia continue to wonder for now... but since you wanted a gun... tell me when and who would you shoot?

Hmmm... It's more like I want the power and not the responsibility. Who would I have killed at the time? Probably Ike in all honesty, because he was my top scum read at the time with little interest from others.

[bozotheclown]

DrCJG, did you consider the NK protection provided by the box when you delivered it N2?

Yes I did. I also considered NK strategies for the mafia, the use of the driver in diverting the box, the doctor trying to save someone, the watcher seeing my visit.

I am still a little confused by your scum!DrCJG being more likely that scum!Worcej line of reasoning... after a couple rereads, I understand you to be saying that scum!Worcej could pass the box among scum (and use up the list function) such that no one ever knew he got the box, but scum!DrCJG would always be somewhat identified as having received the box by town!Worcej... that seems accurate, but I am not sure it accounts for much difference in reads... scum!DrCJG could have passed it to scum but in the final seconds of the next night said it was sent to a person that got NK'd or said he sent it to someone but it got drivered... or since, as town, I couldn't be sure the alignment of the person I was passing to, scum!DrCJG could have passed it to scum and just said he didn't know the alignment of the person he was passing to.

I agree there are reasons that you might have passed the box to another scum if you are scum, but since we know that did not happen, I did not go into that. My point was there are reasons you might pass the box to town as scum, and therefore your passing the box to town is NAI.