Mafia 87: Madness in Mega-City One - GAME THREAD

[DiplomacyandWarfare]

Totally thought EOD was in 6 minutes…

I also thought I would have time to post and, if necessary, change my vote before EOD

[ghug]

I expect there to be one kill today

And more and we flip damo/sweet/food/DrFid

Ah, the old "one person voted for this person so they must be scum".

Isn't he just saying if there is more than one NK one of the four must be MMA?

Oh, I didn't parse that and meant any.

[brainbomb]

so why did people try to murder balki the moment he left the game thread for the day. that seems really odd to me that you wouldnt push him while he was around even if just to garner his reaction

[damo666]

Ah, the old "one person voted for this person so they must be scum".

Isn't he just saying if there is more than one NK one of the four must be MMA?

Oh, I didn't parse that and meant any.

Ok

[ghug]

sweeties I am very disappointed with all of you

We should have killed this.

[brainbomb]

good news is, he is gonna come back eventually and see that.

[damo666]

so why did people try to murder balki the moment he left the game thread for the day. that seems really odd to me that you wouldnt push him while he was around even if just to garner his reaction

I never contemplated voting Balki BUT it did seem a strange time to bring up the Hypo discussion. Why not wait until night?

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

so why did people try to murder balki the moment he left the game thread for the day. that seems really odd to me that you wouldnt push him while he was around even if just to garner his reaction

We did! What?!

[brainbomb]

so why did people try to murder balki the moment he left the game thread for the day. that seems really odd to me that you wouldnt push him while he was around even if just to garner his reaction

We did! What?!

this doesnt apply to you, you had already been gerbil up the ass on him all day. im talking about the flash wagon by people who were only softing scumreads on him

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

so why did people try to murder balki the moment he left the game thread for the day. that seems really odd to me that you wouldnt push him while he was around even if just to garner his reaction

We did! What?!

this doesnt apply to you, you had already been gerbil up the ass on him all day. im talking about the flash wagon by people who were only softing scumreads on him

Gerbil up the ass is an insane sounding phrase

[brainbomb]

Dear Judges and/or Mean Machine
in the spirit of spreading joy throughout the game. and making a much more enjoyable experience for us all, could you please kill some of these people so we dont have to spend a day doing so?

ND
Fidelis
ghug
rdrivera

[damo666]

Dear Judges and/or Mean Machine
in the spirit of spreading joy throughout the game. and making a much more enjoyable experience for us all, could you please kill some of these people so we dont have to spend a day doing so?

ND
Fidelis
ghug
rdrivera

you could've kept this to your night chat

[DiplomacyandWarfare]

I still think my variation on Balki's plan works better than ghugs, specifically the fact that it gives vague townleans and scumleans that, while not guaranteed to be accurate, give some info. Ghugs version causes all cops to give no info whatsoever until they die and we figure out what role they were.
For reference, in my version:
Copscan target as innocent = true. Psychic cop scan not dark judge = true
copscan target guilty = false. Psychic cop scan target is a dark judge = false
ghugs is:
copscan target innocent = true. psychic cop scan target is a dark judge = true
copscan target guilty = false psychic cop scan target is not a dark judge = false

I would rather know that somebody is probably either innocent or not a dark judge than know that somebody is either innocent or a dark judge. I would also rather know that somebody is either scum or a dark judge than that somebody is either scum or NOT a dark judge.
Yes, the scum could potentially determine who the real cops are because the cops scan them as False. However, VTs scanning people randomly (flip a coin. Heads = true tails = false) would add a lot of confusion for the scum. On the other hand, the results would get diluted by this, but with over a dozen scans we would have enough "vaguely town" and "vaguely scum"s that even if the scum get a few Trues (vaguely town) on them, most scans on them would be False (vaguely scum) and cops could have plausible deniability.

[Balki Bartokomous]

Well...not ideal. I'll keep my judgments to myself.

I am not going to be around much during this phase, I fear. I'd like to have the Hypo-Scan Plan locked in. Snowy, if you really think it's a bad idea, tell us why ASAP.

[ghug]

HYPOTHETICAL COP REVEAL PLAN
Putting it here in one place, because I want this settled going into night phase.

ALL TOWN AT END OF NIGHT
Please disclose an actual visit target (if you are a PR) or a fake visit target (if you are not a PR) as close to EOD as possible. We’re talking about the very last minute, so it will not impact scum night actions. If you cannot be around in the last, say 10 minutes of the night phase, then maybe just skip the EON post, and tell us who you visited after day start. We’d prefer to have an EON post to help us catch Judge Fear if and when he pops someone.

You can word your claim something like this: “If I were Cop, I’d visit X.”

ALL TOWN AT START OF DAY

You can word your claim something like this: “If I were Cop, I would have visited X and returned TRUE/FALSE.”

If You Were Role Blocked
Tell the thread you were Role Blocked, whether or not you are a PR. Obviously in this case, you have no scan to report, real or fake.

If you have a VT or Doctor PM, this is what you do:
Reveal a random result of your scan. Either result is fine. We are not going to pay attention to the results until you flip or until PRs are out in the open.

If you have a Generic Cop PM, this is what you do:
If your scan is INNOCENT, say scan is TRUE
If your scan is GUILTY, say scan is FALSE
Meaning for later:
Addictive Cop: a True scan likely found town, and a guilty scan likely found scum (but see possible manipulations of Doctor and other)
Macho Cop: a True scan likely found town and a guilty scan likely found scum (but see possible manipulation from PA Angel)
Naïve Cop: a True scan means only that PA Angel didn’t visit. A False scan means only that PA Angel did visit. Says nothing about target.

If you have a Methodical Cop PM, this is what you do:
If your scan is INNOCENT, say scan is FALSE
If your scan is GUILTY, say scan is TRUE
NOTE THIS IS DIFFERENT THAN GHUG’S PLAN
Meaning for later:
A True scan most likely found scum (only exception is PA Angel visit), and a False scan most likely found Town.

If you have a Parity Cop PM, this is what you do:
On the first night, tell us your real target, but provide a random result (TRUE OR FALSE, doesn’t matter). On the second night, and on all subsequent nights, if your scan is SAME, say scan is TRUE. If your scan is NOT SAME, say scan is FALSE.

If you have a Vanilla Cop PM, this is what you do:
If your scan is VANILLA, say scan is TRUE
If your scan is NOT VANILLA, say scan is FALSE
Meaning for later:
A True scan most likely found a Vanilla Town. A True scan could also possibly be on Junior Angel, if Junior Angel is in the game, or could be the result of PA Angel visit. False most likely means not Vanilla Town and not Junior Angel.

If you have an SJS Cop PM, this is what you do:
If your scan is Cop, say scan is TRUE
If your scan is NOT COP, say scan is FALSE
Meaning for later:
A True scan found a Cop or Judge, absent Angel visit. A False scan found an Angel, absent PA Angel visit.

If you have a Psychic Cop PM, this is what you do:
If your scan is DARK, say scan is TRUE
If your scan is NOT DARK, say scan is FALSE
Meaning for later:
a True scan likely found a Judge, absent visit from PA Angel. False scan means target is not a Judge, absent PA Angel visit.

People who have signed off so far:
(I'm sure there are others, but these are the one's I recall)
1. Balki
2. ghug
3. dargotygel
4. foodcoats
5. Diplomacy&Warfare
6. JustAGuyNamedWill
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.

I did not sign off on this because the true-false system does not work well. I would advise we put all scans suggesting the target is scum (Dark from Psychic cop, Guilty from normal cop, etc) on the same True/False result. This (without my modification) may work better because the scum won't instantly know who the real cops are from seeing the cops scan the scum as Guilty, which we should absolutely discuss further, but I have not signed off on this for now.

Repeating my argument against this: "Yeah, I think this is a bad thing, not a good thing. A bunch of people could have wrong reads. A real cop could have misleading results. Scum could game it. The ideal outcome here is that every cop's target/result history flips with them on death and we don't hear anyone about scans at all before that. Obviously that's impossible, but the TRUE/FALSE schema gets us the former with perfect fidelity while maximizing the latter."

We should just vote or something on this, though. I'm confident that my/Balki's strategy is slightly better than yours, but also that people not agreeing on a system is a bigger negative delta.

[Balki Bartokomous]

I still think my variation on Balki's plan works better than ghugs, specifically the fact that it gives vague townleans and scumleans that, while not guaranteed to be accurate, give some info. Ghugs version causes all cops to give no info whatsoever until they die and we figure out what role they were.
For reference, in my version:
Copscan target as innocent = true. Psychic cop scan not dark judge = true
copscan target guilty = false. Psychic cop scan target is a dark judge = false
ghugs is:
copscan target innocent = true. psychic cop scan target is a dark judge = true
copscan target guilty = false psychic cop scan target is not a dark judge = false

I would rather know that somebody is probably either innocent or not a dark judge than know that somebody is either innocent or a dark judge. I would also rather know that somebody is either scum or a dark judge than that somebody is either scum or NOT a dark judge.
Yes, the scum could potentially determine who the real cops are because the cops scan them as False. However, VTs scanning people randomly (flip a coin. Heads = true tails = false) would add a lot of confusion for the scum. On the other hand, the results would get diluted by this, but with over a dozen scans we would have enough "vaguely town" and "vaguely scum"s that even if the scum get a few Trues (vaguely town) on them, most scans on them would be False (vaguely scum) and cops could have plausible deniability.

No. We only have....what, 4-7 Cops, of varying usefulness? So those 4-7 scans will be mixed in with ~7 fake scans that come from scum and 3-7 fake scans that come from non-Cop Town. And there are lots of nuanced kinds of Cop scans so even the actual Cop hypo scans will be hard to read. There is absolutely no way we should be drawing any conclusions based on the hypo-scans! They will be incredibly hard to decipher until after there is a flip or a PR claim no matter what we do.

So, we want to disguise the results of the hypo scans so that the results do not allow scum to eliminate slots as potential Cops.

[Balki Bartokomous]

@ghug, was your late Balki vote a sincere effort to flashwagon me or a reaction test?

[snowy801]

Well...not ideal. I'll keep my judgments to myself.

I am not going to be around much during this phase, I fear. I'd like to have the Hypo-Scan Plan locked in. Snowy, if you really think it's a bad idea, tell us why ASAP.

I haven't really thought too deep into it, as it seems to work on surface
I just don't like playing this way

[DiplomacyandWarfare]

snip

Repeating my argument against this: "Yeah, I think this is a bad thing, not a good thing. A bunch of people could have wrong reads. A real cop could have misleading results. Scum could game it. The ideal outcome here is that every cop's target/result history flips with them on death and we don't hear anyone about scans at all before that. Obviously that's impossible, but the TRUE/FALSE schema gets us the former with perfect fidelity while maximizing the latter."

We should just vote or something on this, though. I'm confident that my/Balki's strategy is slightly better than yours, but also that people not agreeing on a system is a bigger negative delta.

I agree. We need to vote on this, and your system is better than nothing. Whichever system we are using, everyone should post a hypothetical "I scan X" by EoN. Anyone want to keep track of the hypo scans?
I vote in favor of the Dipvariation
Ghug presumably votes in favor of the ghugcorollary

Dipvariation: 1 (DipandWar)
Ghugcorollary: 1 (ghug)

[sweetandcool]

Obviously we follow Balki here.