M1023: Mafarmia [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

[worcej]

why would you think RD would be likely PR, and why would mafia think that?

I don't get your logic, why does a RD target mean that we should focus on lurkers? And any potential lurking PR should change their behaviour? Wouldn't that just point to them and make it easier for mafia to pick them up?

Correct me if I misunderstand you but that sounds awful (well except for more participation, but it seems like you want to goat PR's here).

Well I petted rdr N1 so obviously I thought he might be a the dog lol.

PRs should be active and participate because the mafia is looking for PRs among people who are not actively participating, as the rdr kill in my opinion demonstrates, and you haven’t disputed that. And yes, lurking PRs should change their behavior, and we should kill lurkers because once the PRs wisely stray away from that path the remaining ones include a deep threat.

Why else do you suppose rdr was killed? Your killing anti-survey people makes zero sense, and I am still hoping you’re being sarcastic by supposing the mafia started off their quest to kill anti-survey folks, a goal that would take the entire game and has no stated gain for them, with the least talkative and most apathetic of the anti-survey post as opposed to any of the other ones.

So let’s think through some alternatives:
a) The mafia team is comprised of all the other anti-survey people that are being louder about it than rdrivera! But in that case they killed an ally.
b) The mafia team killed rdrivera because he had one of them pinned in an inescapable corner! But he didn’t have anyone pinned in a corner and wasn’t doing anything.
c) The mafia team killed rdrivera because he was the most dangerous player remaining to them in some hypothetical scenario down the road. What scenario could that be?
d) The mafia team killed rdrivera because they thought he was a PR. You didn’t explain why this doesn’t make sense.
e) (insert your answer here)

What do you mean zero sense, of course there is a sense there, to get more information out of town by removing people who don't contribute, there are more people left who contribute. Ergo more information on the survey. A survey that helps locate the dog if every town participates honestly. Plus mafia can bolster each other by 'petting' each other.

Also, removing RD was probably motivated because the mafia doesn't want to target a PR, on top of that RD was thought of being towny by many and wasn't giving info about the dog ... because if they target the target of the dog, then they trigger the dogs power and mafia want to avoid that, right? So RD making his trademark vanilla claim was a godsend to them since the dog would surely not protect RD since mafia is trying to hunt PR, right? Also even if the mafia would target RD in that night, so early the dog doesn't want to use their power just because of a vanilla town, even if to confirm his townyness. So because these 3 reasons lined up and RD was most likely not going to be protected at night, RD was chosen.

RD being targeted for being a PR candidate makes only sense for people who don't know RD (or think he would gamble his trademark tell for being safe as PR in a mini).

How in your right mind do you think scum don’t want to hit PRs?

[Kakarroto]

I am growing to believe damo is for sure scum - his behavior is more passive than normal and it feels incredibly off from his town meta.

I also believe one of kak or bona is also scum. Primarily due to their insistence on the survey being bad and their lack of contribution regarding it. At a certain point, enough town did it so they should have too.

I pet bozo tonight. I hope he is a good farm animal and not a wild one.

so what about RD? Oh right, he flipped right after you posted that. Coincidence you didn't say a word about him? There were four people who didn't contribute to the survey, one was ejected D2, the second devoured by wolves N2; You not mentioning RD here looks like you knew he wouldn't be alive so it wouldn't matter for the picture you want to paint.

Also, 50% of the resistance group is proven town, there is a good reason why those town resisted. I know now that at least 75% of those are town, so resisting giving this information seems truly to be a good idea and mafia wants to get those anti-survey people out of the game.

Also your pet action doesn't work that way, you only get info if dog or not.

I wish I had a mafia scouter because I'm sure it would show something over 8000 towards you.

You clearly don’t get sarcasm if you thought I was being serious about the pet…

Otherwise - I did post a question about rdr when someone, I believe Bo, made a comment about him not being remarkable because that was exactly it - he was unremarkable this game.

so, you disregarded RD because someone else said RD was unremarkable, you concurred and that made you think RD isn't mafia, do I have that understood correctly?

[Kakarroto]

I still think resistance to the survey participation is stupid and any concerns it provides usable information to scum is foolish.

if I had the power to post an animation, you would see here one with a person's head making intense contact with the top of a sturdy table ...

[Kakarroto]

I never said there is no value in the survey. It is just much more hurtful to town than any benefits gained. And starting the survey with the N1 target which disposition you and everyone knows of IS suspicious, you can't go wrong since everyone already knows the role and in case you're mafia you can signal your comrades to pick another save pick.

The second point is very strange and defensive for you to mention, you yourself were saying bona was very openly suspicious and didn't vote him, were you "fishing for townvotes to vote him, setting up a move to his wagon if he gets town votes"? Do you realize most of the time when someone mentions a thing they find suspicious they don't instantly vote that person? I voted you later because you didn't seem to see any reason that came from the 'veto-pet-survey' arguments.



no, you said



but giving up the dogs identity renders it powerless since mafia can just pick the dog up. Maybe you didn't think it through, but I would've judged town bozo to do so.

Thank you for finally acknowledging that I make sense. And of course I'm addressing you as town, it wouldn't make sense addressing you as mafia since mafia wouldn't care or even change their mind at this point. I don't know if you are town or mafia, but if you are mafia the whole discussion between us is moot and irrelevant, but if you are actually town bozo I want to reach you and make you realize how awful (at least I think it's awful, maybe god thread can be the judge of that) that survey is. I don't want to vote you out if you are town, I want to rescue you in that case. But all that resistance before is just strengthening the side of me that fears that you are mafia. Understanding that I come from a point of logic here gives me hope though.



bona tried that some time ago too when he was mafia. I find it hard though to distinguish when he pushes as town compared to when he is mafia. Currently I'm leaning strongly pro town bona



and I can see a mafia team with you and worcej here. What I've learned about the span of the games I played here though is it never is that easy.

kak oozes town

Kak strikes me as someone who can sound town in any alignment. Kak is incredibly skilled in communication and maintains a good reputation so people will read more thoroughly and reflect more on what he says.

That being said - besides Kak’s opinions, I don’t see much else until his recent pushes at me that I am apparently scummy.

o.O I guess you haven't read my mafia games then. I was easily picked out D1 and D2 ... the only one where I was successful was because I substituted late, on the block was maf vs town (I think it was damo who was maf and I was the only other maf left) and my vote condemned damo, which gave me credit, but also because the one I substituted always bussed hard and surgically removed the ones that were most on my side ... because I wouldn't let those who maf read me alive, right? But that was only possible since I had full control over the night action. Also, I was pretty stressed out and I'm sure, if I was subbed in only one turn earlier or if the game took one turn more, I wouldn't have made it. I could only barely look like I did my townplay because I had no special information from other players and was left with only the voices in my head.

Also, my last two towngames I was voted out because mafia threw so much mud at me that I couldn't convince enough of my other townies and that made us lose the game ... both times there was deathlama as mafia so that might be why, but still, 'incredibly skilled in communication' is an overestimation of me.

[worcej]

so what about RD? Oh right, he flipped right after you posted that. Coincidence you didn't say a word about him? There were four people who didn't contribute to the survey, one was ejected D2, the second devoured by wolves N2; You not mentioning RD here looks like you knew he wouldn't be alive so it wouldn't matter for the picture you want to paint.

Also, 50% of the resistance group is proven town, there is a good reason why those town resisted. I know now that at least 75% of those are town, so resisting giving this information seems truly to be a good idea and mafia wants to get those anti-survey people out of the game.

Also your pet action doesn't work that way, you only get info if dog or not.

I wish I had a mafia scouter because I'm sure it would show something over 8000 towards you.

You clearly don’t get sarcasm if you thought I was being serious about the pet…

Otherwise - I did post a question about rdr when someone, I believe Bo, made a comment about him not being remarkable because that was exactly it - he was unremarkable this game.

so, you disregarded RD because someone else said RD was unremarkable, you concurred and that made you think RD isn't mafia, do I have that understood correctly?

Being unremarkable as RD usually tips to me thinking he was scummy if you value my honest opinion, but that alone was little to go off of so he had garnered my attention at the very least.

If he was alive right now, meaning his alignment was in question, he would be in my 4 scum pool based off game performance.

[worcej]

I still think resistance to the survey participation is stupid and any concerns it provides usable information to scum is foolish.

if I had the power to post an animation, you would see here one with a person's head making intense contact with the top of a sturdy table ...

Yeah, because you’re so thick-headed it doesn’t hurt lol

[Kakarroto]

N1 dog checks:

bozo: ghug
Chaqa: bozo
Bonatogether: no check
heartthrob: damo
lfischl: Kakarroto
Kakarroto: refuses to participate
bo_sox: rdrivera
celaph: no check
worcej: Chaqa
rdrivera: refuses to participate
damo: refuses to participate

N2 dog checks:

worcej: bozo
Bonatogether: no check
lfischl: worcej
Chaqa: rdrivera
bozo: worcej

My initial reaction D2 was that heartthrob and lfischl seemed likely to be town for responding quickly (Chaqa responded quickly also, but I was already suspecting him for other reasons). Also, bo_sox and worcej seemed likely to be town for defending the survey, because I doubt either would do that to try to pocket me when I had a good chance of being the DK. With celaph and rdrivera no longer in the game, Bonatogether, Kakarroto, and damo are the only remaining dissenters.

I still suspect Chaqa, so that leaves Bonatogether, Kakarroto, damo, and Chaqa as my scum pool.

damo didn't too? I guess my math is off then.

I still don't understand how your pool is just anti-surveys plus chaqa. Your survey still is very bad for town in this game and you don't seem to realize that. Why do you think RD was targeted? Surely not because he was a potential PR with his vanilla claim D1. It seems much more likely mafia is targeting anti-surveys to get rid of those opposing so they get more info about the dog. If my hunch is correct, maf worcej is also trying to smear those who didn't participate which couldn't be hit with the single shot they had. (I can't rule out that worcej is just stupidly wrong here though.)

I can understand that you don't see the dog survey as absolutely flawed and think the benefits outweigh the cost, but thinking the surviving resistance is mafia while all dead resistance was town is just a worldview that town bozo wouldn't have in my opinion. Well maybe I overestimated you, but you writing you don't think worcej would be trying to pocket you as mafia while you are doing mafia a favour is just ... just so ... I want to rip out my hair so stupidly stupid that is. And I think maf bo would be able to do so too, wouldn't cost him much if you turned out to be the day flip.

The dissenters and Chaqa are my scum pool, so if I am right about Chaqa, at least one remaining town dissented, along with rdrivera, although damo is participating now. celaph said he thought the check was one use only, so I am not sure I would say he was dissenting.

so you don't think that celaph just made that up to not contribute to your survey? I'm pretty sure celaph is intelligent enough to see how this survey can damage town and come up with a natural excuse to not be seen as suspicious

[worcej]

kak oozes town

Kak strikes me as someone who can sound town in any alignment. Kak is incredibly skilled in communication and maintains a good reputation so people will read more thoroughly and reflect more on what he says.

That being said - besides Kak’s opinions, I don’t see much else until his recent pushes at me that I am apparently scummy.

o.O I guess you haven't read my mafia games then. I was easily picked out D1 and D2 ... the only one where I was successful was because I substituted late, on the block was maf vs town (I think it was damo who was maf and I was the only other maf left) and my vote condemned damo, which gave me credit, but also because the one I substituted always bussed hard and surgically removed the ones that were most on my side ... because I wouldn't let those who maf read me alive, right? But that was only possible since I had full control over the night action. Also, I was pretty stressed out and I'm sure, if I was subbed in only one turn earlier or if the game took one turn more, I wouldn't have made it. I could only barely look like I did my townplay because I had no special information from other players and was left with only the voices in my head.

Also, my last two towngames I was voted out because mafia threw so much mud at me that I couldn't convince enough of my other townies and that made us lose the game ... both times there was deathlama as mafia so that might be why, but still, 'incredibly skilled in communication' is an overestimation of me.

I don’t fault you for thinking that my opinion isn’t right about you, but that is my honest take from viewing your GT comments and actually posting in prior games.

[worcej]

My top scum read is bona right now, but I get the sense no one really wants to follow me.

[worcej]

Will start it regardless.

##vote Bona

[Kakarroto]

I am going to fill in some information for the missing players based on what they said so far D3. Anyone can repost this if they want to update their scum pool. The posts below are the sources for what I have added.

scum pool (up to 4):

bozo: Bonatogether, Chaqa, damo, Kakarroto
Chaqa: bo_sox, bozo, damo, worcej
damo: Chaqa, lfischl, Bonatogether, bozo
bo_sox: damo, worcej, lfischl
worcej: Bonatogether, Kakarroto, damo, heartthrob
heartthrob: (Chaqa, damo, worcej)
Kakarroto: (worcej, bozo, Chaqa, damo)
Bonatogether: (bo_sox, bozo, damo, worcej)
lfischl: (worcej, heartthrob)

With only one mis-kill left, I think it would be a good idea to have everyone go on record with their scum pool, up to 4:

bozo: Bonatogether, Chaqa, damo, Kakarroto
Chaqa: bo_sox, bozo, damo, worcej

1. Chaqa or damo but not both, because of this feud
2. worcej, because i have a foggier idea of where they stand compared to some others like bona which i'm more confident about being town
3. Even though I place trust in bozotheclown and his survey i could be swayed on him bc of how the celaph vote turned out, even though i voted for celaph too.
4. bo_sox strikes me as aggressive but not necessarily mafia, lol.
5. I think that leaves Kak and lfisch

i'm gonna brainstorm this Q to try and come up with a solid guess of 4 but that's where my head is at in general

I've been looking at the surviving ones and thinking about it, the most mafia-ness comes currently from worcej. I'm not so sure about bozo, bo has scratched my radar too. I'm still not sure if that isn't just too easy of a mafia team.

I'm getting strange vibes from heartthrob but celaph was convinced they are town, so maybe I just take up some wrong stuff (or maybe I shouldn't trust too much in dead town reads).

Strangely enough, I see Chaqa and damo on the same level, they could be mafia, but right now I wouldn't be able to point it out.

Is bona actually my top candidate for town? I can't believe it, but after RD's death, yeah, seems so. Even with the same pattern of being the driving force for two town ejections, which if this continues is a sign for maf bona, but town bona was in the past also responsible for one or two miss-ejections.

I really should have a reread and a focussed look on lfischl. Currently they are in a fog area between heartthrob and bona, but I couldn't even vaguely say where.

Kakarroto
lfischl
Bonatogether
heartthrob24909
bo_sox47
worcej
damo666
bozotheclown

This is roughly where I'm at

would move fisch down but basically agree

i would be fine with either a bozo or worcej vote

##vote worcej for competitiveness

I would be good with this as well, or heart

your way of putting the names in looks weird, some are alphabetically, some not and like the chaqa one not how he had ranked them.

Also you made a mistake with mine, you disregarded my mentioning of bo. Also you put damo and chaqa who I read on the same level in and didn't put heartthrob in who was mentioned earlier. Why did you do that? Are you just reading what you want?

[Kakarroto]

It is interesting, at least to me, that everyone I have in my scum pool are scum reading me. That probably means I am missing at least one scum, but I am not sure who that would be.

i don't follow

Even if the mafia think I am a good mis-kill candidate, I would expect 1 scum to try to pocket me instead.

AND THAT'S WHY I SAID IT IS SO TOTALLY UNNATURAL FOR YOU TO NOT SEE WORCEJ OR BO DOING JUST THAT EVEN WHEN YOU MIGHT'VE BEEN THE D2 TARGET!!!

seriously, if you are town, you need an upgrade of either your soft or hard ware. It seems you're getting old

[worcej]

i don't follow

Even if the mafia think I am a good mis-kill candidate, I would expect 1 scum to try to pocket me instead.

AND THAT'S WHY I SAID IT IS SO TOTALLY UNNATURAL FOR YOU TO NOT SEE WORCEJ OR BO DOING JUST THAT EVEN WHEN YOU MIGHT'VE BEEN THE D2 TARGET!!!

seriously, if you are town, you need an upgrade of either your soft or hard ware. It seems you're getting old

The joke that bozo is a robot continuing to show itself in funny ways

[Bonatogether]

Depends if people share my assessment that you’re behaving almost exclusively anti-town and have pushed for the death of now confirmed multiple town players with meh cases.

if you honestly believed that, you could point it out and centralize it by making a case. understand if you can't do it, though, cause im town

Honestly, it’s more that I don’t have the ability to form a case on you due to the fact I am on my phone and have limited windows of opportunity to post. Couple that with your volume, of which 90% is worthless, and then it’s impossible to hit at it with your actual posts.

So I can only really present the fact that my review of your actions so far have been anti-town and you’re getting people killed by just being the loudspeaker at either opportunistic scum or town-lemmings who just listen to you at the last second.

Your whole case on me is that ‘I am not doing anything’ which is substantially false and you’re only saying it because you don’t like or agree with my opinion.

we have extended periods where you can do it - you can also leave and save it. wonders of technology. i also managed to reread the entire game in a couple hours, so you can dig through my iso in a reasonable amount of time.

the main opinions you have put forth are that i'm scummy, and that the survey doesn't tend towards leaking the pr. you've made no cases, and are apparently unwilling to create one on me at some point in the future, so i believe that in fact, you have done nothing. i messed up and got bungo and celly killed, but at least i was actively wrong rather than a passive commentator.

[Kakarroto]

Although, damo is the weakest read in my scum pool, and I am starting to worry that worcej vs. damo would be town vs. town.

as much as you don't make sense in most every other sense, I also was thinking that worcej was less likely mafia. After I've slept I was t hinking "mafia worcej probably doesn't push this hard for the survey", "worcej always gets mafia read", "worcej seems" (and I don't like to use that word but I think in this case I just have to since otherwise you don't understand) "too scum to be scum". Also worcej is probably the player with the single highest times being voted out during day as town.

I'm not fully convinced and I think it's still possible worcej is mafia, but after hours and hours in bed and trying to find enlightenment, I think that worcej might be town and shouldn't be a target today.

[Bonatogether]

Kak strikes me as someone who can sound town in any alignment. Kak is incredibly skilled in communication and maintains a good reputation so people will read more thoroughly and reflect more on what he says.

That being said - besides Kak’s opinions, I don’t see much else until his recent pushes at me that I am apparently scummy.

o.O I guess you haven't read my mafia games then. I was easily picked out D1 and D2 ... the only one where I was successful was because I substituted late, on the block was maf vs town (I think it was damo who was maf and I was the only other maf left) and my vote condemned damo, which gave me credit, but also because the one I substituted always bussed hard and surgically removed the ones that were most on my side ... because I wouldn't let those who maf read me alive, right? But that was only possible since I had full control over the night action. Also, I was pretty stressed out and I'm sure, if I was subbed in only one turn earlier or if the game took one turn more, I wouldn't have made it. I could only barely look like I did my townplay because I had no special information from other players and was left with only the voices in my head.

Also, my last two towngames I was voted out because mafia threw so much mud at me that I couldn't convince enough of my other townies and that made us lose the game ... both times there was deathlama as mafia so that might be why, but still, 'incredibly skilled in communication' is an overestimation of me.

I don’t fault you for thinking that my opinion isn’t right about you, but that is my honest take from viewing your GT comments and actually posting in prior games.

2nd post in a row where worcej gives his 'honest opinion'.

[Bonatogether]

Although, damo is the weakest read in my scum pool, and I am starting to worry that worcej vs. damo would be town vs. town.

as much as you don't make sense in most every other sense, I also was thinking that worcej was less likely mafia. After I've slept I was t hinking "mafia worcej probably doesn't push this hard for the survey", "worcej always gets mafia read", "worcej seems" (and I don't like to use that word but I think in this case I just have to since otherwise you don't understand) "too scum to be scum". Also worcej is probably the player with the single highest times being voted out during day as town.

I'm not fully convinced and I think it's still possible worcej is mafia, but after hours and hours in bed and trying to find enlightenment, I think that worcej might be town and shouldn't be a target today.

who do you want out?

[heartthrob24909]

explique s'il vous plait

why are town more likely to stand out (or why are scum less likely to stand out)?

i think townies would be less afraid to draw attention to ourselves, but a scum is trying to hide something and would want to be more careful with their words -- could lead to a strategy where they blend more into the shadows, try and be ignored as long as possible

if you apply that to this game, what do you get? interested to see how you reason it through

that's why i feel a lot more confident trusting you and bo_sox as town than others that I get less of a distinct impression of

[Chaqa]

You should be able to use those connections to find 3 that fit though, if your assumptions about those connections are correct.

Making arbitrary teams is not how you win mafia.

We vote out the scummiest person and then re-evaluate.

That's OK for D1, but we only have 1 mis-kill remaining, so we need to try to figure out the scum team. If we mis-kill today, it will be 4-3 D4, making it very hard to DK scum.

This statement conveys no actual analysis or new information.

Like of course we need to get scum today or it's gonna be 4-3.

[worcej]

if you honestly believed that, you could point it out and centralize it by making a case. understand if you can't do it, though, cause im town

Honestly, it’s more that I don’t have the ability to form a case on you due to the fact I am on my phone and have limited windows of opportunity to post. Couple that with your volume, of which 90% is worthless, and then it’s impossible to hit at it with your actual posts.

So I can only really present the fact that my review of your actions so far have been anti-town and you’re getting people killed by just being the loudspeaker at either opportunistic scum or town-lemmings who just listen to you at the last second.

Your whole case on me is that ‘I am not doing anything’ which is substantially false and you’re only saying it because you don’t like or agree with my opinion.

we have extended periods where you can do it - you can also leave and save it. wonders of technology. i also managed to reread the entire game in a couple hours, so you can dig through my iso in a reasonable amount of time.

the main opinions you have put forth are that i'm scummy, and that the survey doesn't tend towards leaking the pr. you've made no cases, and are apparently unwilling to create one on me at some point in the future, so i believe that in fact, you have done nothing. i messed up and got bungo and celly killed, but at least i was actively wrong rather than a passive commentator.

Yeah, not trying to be a dick, but having 2 young children fucking murders free time and I have a lot of stuff I do besides argue in Mafia…