MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

[ghug]

I just find it hard to imagine he forgets a detail when he just threw a temper tantrum in the 20 questions games about people not being detail oriented

I did not "throw a temper tantrum" in the 20 questions game about people not being detail oriented.

Jamiet and Foxcastle threw a temper tantrum at me for the way I was asking people to clarify what they meant.

I have, at all times, remained jovial and downright delightful.

20 questions is ruining mafia.

[Balki Bartokomous]

##vote BunnyGo

Still highest on my list. Hasn't done anything to me that appears to stand out. Superficial engagement. Not solving a puzzle.

[BunnyGo]

I think we should take bo at his word that he's leaving and preemptively #swingthesubs

[BunnyGo]

##vote BunnyGo

Still highest on my list. Hasn't done anything to me that appears to stand out. Superficial engagement. Not solving a puzzle.

Speaking of not solving a puzzle, you’ve changed your opinion 0 times this game. That’s so scummy it’s hard to scum read you for it

[BunnyGo]

I think we should take bo at his word that he's leaving and preemptively #swingthesubs

Boo. Dislike this post.

https://giphy.com/gifs/boo-half-baked-t ... PmDWr97248

[Balki Bartokomous]

##vote BunnyGo

Still highest on my list. Hasn't done anything to me that appears to stand out. Superficial engagement. Not solving a puzzle.

Speaking of not solving a puzzle, you’ve changed your opinion 0 times this game. That’s so scummy it’s hard to scum read you for it

It's true that I haven't changed my mind about you. And I still am not very confident.

I also haven't gotten any flips that have caused me to reevaluate, as I felt pretty null/good about both HamiltonBrian and Pyxxy.

When I get some useful info, I'll use it to reevaluate.

[ghug]

##vote BunnyGo

Still highest on my list. Hasn't done anything to me that appears to stand out. Superficial engagement. Not solving a puzzle.

Speaking of not solving a puzzle, you’ve changed your opinion 0 times this game. That’s so scummy it’s hard to scum read you for it

It's true that I haven't changed my mind about you. And I still am not very confident.

I also haven't gotten any flips that have caused me to reevaluate, as I felt pretty null/good about both HamiltonBrian and Pyxxy.

When I get some useful info, I'll use it to reevaluate.

You only reevaluate your opinions with flips?

[Balki Bartokomous]

You only reevaluate your opinions with flips?

No.

[Balki Bartokomous]

We should really mass claim today before scumbuckets can talk about it.

[rdrivera2005]

We should really mass claim today before scumbuckets can talk about it.

I have a two hours drive now (to the beach ). So, I won't be available to claim or whatever for the next two hours.

[KoalaAttack]

I think that enough cats are out of enough bags that we should mass claim. This is especially true here where we may have items (guns, etc.) that we can give to our clear townies, should we get any from this exercise.

I would suggest that we claim in an organized way. Either (a) we set an order here in this thread and insist that people claim in that order, or else (b) we set a time when everyone is available and we claim at that exact time.

I am pretty sure that (b) is preferable, but only if we can coordinate it and everyone is available at the same time. And if we do this, the sooner the better.

I am going to propose right now that we do a mass claim in 1 hour and 48 minutes, at 10:00 am PT. Please confirm that you agree and are available at that time.

Sorry folks there are a myriad posts and I only have a few min break – so I speed-skimmed, will have to read to catch up in more detail tonight.

But this proposal seems important to respond to:

I do not believe the sincerity of your plan. And therefore, I will not participate in any claiming or unclaiming discussions about myself, full stop. "Neither confirm nor deny" or "I hard claim a Retired Civil War Gunsmith who is now a sports medicine Doctor who Gambles on their phone while Watching the field & Track" – take your pick!

Like I told worcej, I do not step on the same shovel twice. Last time there was a "group action" plan that you were pushing, I was one of the few who actually followed through. Everyone just kind of backed out and moved on. I assume this will be exactly the same.

To summarize: there was a binding vote idea, and all it did is put me in a position like I'm the only honest fool who is actually doing what we agreed. Why should I partake in this Sharade 2.0? Nope.

[bozotheclown]

So we've had two big things today:

The first is worcejgate. I'm inclined to think worcej is town, and that anyone loudly demanding his death or showing consistency on him between night and day (Chaqa, Koala, Balki) look pretty good to me. The people who tried to jump on killing him after not really caring at night (bo, damo, yav) look pretty bad.

The second is massclaimgate. I feel inclined to town's those who pushed for this even though I disagree with it. I'm not totally sold on Balki because he has this capacity, but he's playing fast and loose and attracting a lot of shit even if i don't think his play is ultimately helpful to town. I think damo looks pretty good. Then you've got vocal opponents of the plan (Rd, bo, Chaqa, Bunny), and whatever the hell bozo is doing, which for some reason is really rubbing me the wrong way. Normally I'd townread people being loud and firm about their opinions, but it seems like an easy enough position to take here that I don't feel inclined to give them a ton of credit.

Then you've got lfischl and yav who are just sitting there.

That leaves me at:

Decent kills today:
bo
bozo
yav
lfischl

Nulls:
Rd
Bunny
Chaqa

Townleans:
damo
Balki

Town:
worcej
Koala
ghuggles

What I am doing is trying to figure out what is going on. I have learned that it is not worth pushing for a mass claim even when I think it is optimal for town, because to execute it properly requires a consensus agreement before any claiming is done, and that almost never happens. In this case, if the town PRs are not exactly worcej, Chaqa, and Balki, we either have at least one mafia who has claimed to be a town PR or at least one VT who has faked claimed in a setup where fake claiming only gives mafia cover for their own fake claims that will be coming when/if we are about to DK a mafia before we have resolved the PR confusion.

[KoalaAttack]

Another reason Chaqa is unlikely to be town PR is there is a maximum of only one left.
It is pretty obvious Koala is gambler.

News to me (re: Koala)

And I do not retract my claim.

It’s pretty comedic worcej is voting for a claimed PR while crying about being a claimed PR under suspicion

Koala is pushing a worcej wagon for benefit of the gambler and his bookmaker thing is a pretty strong hint.

Are you gonna track worcej tonight if you both survive the day?

As I just said, "neither confirm nor deny" on anything my-role-related. And worcej is irrelevant / it's a coincidence that I also happen to have had a Mafia read on them.


But I do want to clarify something around trust & group actions. This group of people is new to me. My plan on group actions can be summarized as:

I will earnestly follow through with all agreed-upon group actions until the first one that fails, at which point I will have established that this group can not be trusted to follow-through and stop participating in them further.

I shall continue to adhering to this policy.

[Balki Bartokomous]

Like I told worcej, I do not step on the same shovel twice. Last time there was a "group action" plan that you were pushing, I was one of the few who actually followed through. Everyone just kind of backed out and moved on. I assume this will be exactly the same.

To summarize: there was a binding vote idea, and all it did is put me in a position like I'm the only honest fool who is actually doing what we agreed. Why should I partake in this Sharade 2.0? Nope.

Both of my plans were optimal plays. But we have to work as a group or not at all, and we have some combination of town players playing sub-optimally and scum players.

In any event, a herd of cats cannot build a cat condo, even if it advisable that they do.

[ghug]

News to me (re: Koala)

And I do not retract my claim.

It’s pretty comedic worcej is voting for a claimed PR while crying about being a claimed PR under suspicion

Koala is pushing a worcej wagon for benefit of the gambler and his bookmaker thing is a pretty strong hint.

Are you gonna track worcej tonight if you both survive the day?

As I just said, "neither confirm nor deny" on anything my-role-related. And worcej is irrelevant / it's a coincidence that I also happen to have had a Mafia read on them.


But I do want to clarify something around trust & group actions. This group of people is new to me. My plan on group actions can be summarized as:

I will earnestly follow through with all agreed-upon group actions until the first one that fails, at which point I will have established that this group can not be trusted to follow-through and stop participating in them further.

I shall continue to adhering to this policy.

Does the fact that we didn't meet the conditions for follow-through matter?

Those conditions weren't consistent from person to person, but several of us weren't interested in the binding vote if we didn't get full participation during the night, which we didn't.

[KoalaAttack]

Does the fact that we didn't meet the conditions for follow-through matter?

Those conditions weren't consistent from person to person, but several of us weren't interested in the binding vote if we didn't get full participation during the night, which we didn't.

The way I see it, it's either democracy or Animal Farm. I have zero interest in Animal Farm.

And if it's a democracy, I would say we had the majority for the plan last night, so I would expect the minority to follow-through despite their personal disagreement. I would (well, Mafia-me probably wouldn't for obvious reasons). Note that I wasn't pushing for the binding vote plan. I simply saw that more that half of the people have voted during the night – pretty clear majority in my eyes.

[worcej]

I also think trying to coax an international group of people, some of whom are undoubtedly sleeping, into being here in 1 hour and 48 minutes and opening the door to criticize them if they aren’t here is rather scummy.

Balki is feeling less like a game solver and more like a wild child who is doing weird shit for the sake of doing weird shit.

You haven't felt this way already? The D1 claim pushed me into that thought process already

[KoalaAttack]

One really doesn't get to vote and then annul it when you they don't like the result IMHO. If they didn't want to participate, shouldn't have voted in the first place.

[worcej]

Once we mass claim, we will know immediately in which buckets the scum claimed.

If scum claims PR, we might even want to claim specific roles, and we may be able to narrow it down to a specific CC.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that this is optimal. Mass claim today. Start by claiming VT or PR. Figure out in which buckets scum claimed, and then we're going to be able to root them out a lot easier.

It's better to wait for this kind of thing, but with Damo's VT claim, and a few hard or soft PR claims out there, I don't think we have too much of a "hide PRs for tonight" advantage left.

This is towny logic to me.

[worcej]

I really think we should mass claim. I feel strongly about it. Who wants to discuss?

I am already claimed and through a mass claim we would at least narrow down the PRs choices.

It would also immensely help me with my save target choices in the night phase and could then be used to confirm mafia roles (if they have an RB or not)