MAFIA 90: Gunfight at the Pretty Good Corral

[BunnyGo]

heartthrob

heartthrob

heartthrob

[brainbomb]

good changes darg. sounds fair and gives both sides equal and opposing options.

Im all for that.

I had no concerns regardless, I just wanna reiterate that if you are mafia, you will not fare well. In fact ive seen the movie tombstone, and I can tell you that I wont just shoot you, ill also circle back to pump some rounds into your tombstone too.

[sweetandcool]

Ok… here we go!

First, thank you for all the input. Yes, I have been involved in lots of games from the Kouncil and GM side, but this is the first one I’ve built from the start onward. Your comments have been helpful, even if I did not end up taking the position you espouse.

Second, my goal in creating the Gunfight was twofold… first, I REALLY enjoyed my Desperado play of years ago, and wanted to see it happen again. I waited and waited and waited for someone else to include the PR, but it IS weird, difficult, and very swingy. So no one else did. Therefore I started thinking about how to do it. Second, many of us have yearned for a game with a lot of vigilantes. But such a concept is necessarily experimental, and difficult to balance, counter, and make use of. THIS is my effort. If, in the end, it is not as balanced as I hope, I DO MORESO hope that it is fun. If it does not work, we will not do it again.

Third, the questions and comments centered around dealing fairly with a “standoff.” That situation (that I hope does NOT occur) where town, vigs, and scum all desire to force the OTHER side to move first. It sort of fits with the Gunfight Theme. The camera focused on the eyes of the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly… each waiting for the OTHER to move first.

- The standard (as Kak and others reminded us) is that Mafia is ultimately responsible to stop a standoff from happening. With this setup’s mafia weaponry and situation, this did not seem workable.

- Simply giving the Mafia team a factional kill was one option. But it went against my desire to have MOST of the killing happen on the street, OR by gunfighters.

- A tie must be either simply prohibited, or made so costly that no one would choose to tie. I dislike draconian simplistic rules, when there is a strategi choice available. In the end, after a lot of advice and discussion, THIS is what I have decided:
- In Shootout at the Pretty Good Corral, these rules are in effect:
a) Scum will no longer have a NK role, but will simply have a factional NK. I deem my original idea to be an unnecessary complication.
c) Because of the Lawmen’s compulsion to root out ALL lawlessness, a tie is not an acceptable EoD state.
d) Therefore, The person whose vote CAUSES a tie at EoD will be riddled with bullets from angry citizens, who expect more decisiveness from their lawmen. THIS sounds more complicated than it is. DayVotes simply may NOT be tied. IF a tie occurs, SOMEONE is going to die. If you were the voter whose vote caused a tie to occur, you will be modkilled.

Fourth, some legitimate questions concerning the possibility of massclaiming arose. To guard against that, the method of selecting lawmen and gunmen has been adjusted.

In Role PM’s of Lawmen, all Lawmen (gun carriers) will FIRST BE TOLD THEY ARE Vanilla Town. But (depending on the number of players…) some of them will actually be Lawmen.

Each Lawmen will be assigned a DAY that their gun will be activated. They will be notified by GMs that they found a gun, and are actually a LAWMAN.

The Activation Day will be determined randomly in this way: The number of Lawmen will determine the sides on the die being rolled. Starting on D2 (no gun, other than the Desperado will be active on D1) the players will have an Activation Day Randomly Assigned. They might all be activated on D2… or some on D2, and some on D3… etc… (you can see the number of Lawmen in my earlier posts)

If, for example, there are four lawmen, their guns will be activated by a die roll in this manner. For each lawman, a four sided die will be electronically rolled. The resulting number will indicate WHICH Day that gun will begin to be able to be fired. Day 2, Day 3, Day 4, and Day 5.

Therefore, all four guns MIGHT be fireable on D2. Or they might be spread out unevenly. Or they might be spread out evenly.

In other words: Lawmen will be categorized on the GM’s list before the game begins… but players will only receive a VT notification on D1. On the Day they are able to fire, they will receive a notification of their gun’s activation. In other words, lawmen will believe they are likely townies until they receive gun notice.

Please Note:
a) Guns MAY be holstered.
b) Guns only fire during the day.

Finally, regarding Gun-carriers…let me restate there is NO scum night gunman. Instead, the scum team have a faction NK.

Investigative Sheriff
Many good questions arose around this role. And in the end, in an attempt to not OVER power, or UNDER power this role, the Investigative Sheriff will work in this manner:

BEFORE the random distribution of roles, the GMs will determine whether the Sheriff is NORMAL or TRICKY. (50% each)

IF the sheriff is Normal, the Investigative Sheriff may choose to visit a player (notifying the GM’s before the EoN). The Investigative Sheriff will receive word from the GM whether that player is TOWN or SCUM.

If the sheriff is TRICKY, there is a further 50% chance that for the Investigative Sheriff’s FIRST investigation, everything is fine… but thereafter the Investigative Sheriff will continue to receive the same result as the first investigation.
OR
There is a further %50 chance that the sheriff will simply receive the OPPOSITE result of the scan’s true result.

I will wait a day or two… for any good corrections (I ask that you send them privately at this point) and then I will CHANGE the original posting for this game to include these ideas (in a less wordy format) to avoid confusion.

Sounds good Darg!

I'm a little confused on the Tricky sheriff. Are you saying there is a 50% chance Tricky Sheriff always receives the opposite of the true scan result? And 50% chance Tricky Sheriff instead receives the same scan report each night?

[Bonatogether]

Ok… here we go!

First, thank you for all the input. Yes, I have been involved in lots of games from the Kouncil and GM side, but this is the first one I’ve built from the start onward. Your comments have been helpful, even if I did not end up taking the position you espouse.

Second, my goal in creating the Gunfight was twofold… first, I REALLY enjoyed my Desperado play of years ago, and wanted to see it happen again. I waited and waited and waited for someone else to include the PR, but it IS weird, difficult, and very swingy. So no one else did. Therefore I started thinking about how to do it. Second, many of us have yearned for a game with a lot of vigilantes. But such a concept is necessarily experimental, and difficult to balance, counter, and make use of. THIS is my effort. If, in the end, it is not as balanced as I hope, I DO MORESO hope that it is fun. If it does not work, we will not do it again.

Third, the questions and comments centered around dealing fairly with a “standoff.” That situation (that I hope does NOT occur) where town, vigs, and scum all desire to force the OTHER side to move first. It sort of fits with the Gunfight Theme. The camera focused on the eyes of the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly… each waiting for the OTHER to move first.

- The standard (as Kak and others reminded us) is that Mafia is ultimately responsible to stop a standoff from happening. With this setup’s mafia weaponry and situation, this did not seem workable.

- Simply giving the Mafia team a factional kill was one option. But it went against my desire to have MOST of the killing happen on the street, OR by gunfighters.

- A tie must be either simply prohibited, or made so costly that no one would choose to tie. I dislike draconian simplistic rules, when there is a strategi choice available. In the end, after a lot of advice and discussion, THIS is what I have decided:
- In Shootout at the Pretty Good Corral, these rules are in effect:
a) Scum will no longer have a NK role, but will simply have a factional NK. I deem my original idea to be an unnecessary complication.
c) Because of the Lawmen’s compulsion to root out ALL lawlessness, a tie is not an acceptable EoD state.
d) Therefore, The person whose vote CAUSES a tie at EoD will be riddled with bullets from angry citizens, who expect more decisiveness from their lawmen. THIS sounds more complicated than it is. DayVotes simply may NOT be tied. IF a tie occurs, SOMEONE is going to die. If you were the voter whose vote caused a tie to occur, you will be modkilled.

Fourth, some legitimate questions concerning the possibility of massclaiming arose. To guard against that, the method of selecting lawmen and gunmen has been adjusted.

In Role PM’s of Lawmen, all Lawmen (gun carriers) will FIRST BE TOLD THEY ARE Vanilla Town. But (depending on the number of players…) some of them will actually be Lawmen.

Each Lawmen will be assigned a DAY that their gun will be activated. They will be notified by GMs that they found a gun, and are actually a LAWMAN.

The Activation Day will be determined randomly in this way: The number of Lawmen will determine the sides on the die being rolled. Starting on D2 (no gun, other than the Desperado will be active on D1) the players will have an Activation Day Randomly Assigned. They might all be activated on D2… or some on D2, and some on D3… etc… (you can see the number of Lawmen in my earlier posts)

If, for example, there are four lawmen, their guns will be activated by a die roll in this manner. For each lawman, a four sided die will be electronically rolled. The resulting number will indicate WHICH Day that gun will begin to be able to be fired. Day 2, Day 3, Day 4, and Day 5.

Therefore, all four guns MIGHT be fireable on D2. Or they might be spread out unevenly. Or they might be spread out evenly.

In other words: Lawmen will be categorized on the GM’s list before the game begins… but players will only receive a VT notification on D1. On the Day they are able to fire, they will receive a notification of their gun’s activation. In other words, lawmen will believe they are likely townies until they receive gun notice.

Please Note:
a) Guns MAY be holstered.
b) Guns only fire during the day.

Finally, regarding Gun-carriers…let me restate there is NO scum night gunman. Instead, the scum team have a faction NK.

Investigative Sheriff
Many good questions arose around this role. And in the end, in an attempt to not OVER power, or UNDER power this role, the Investigative Sheriff will work in this manner:

BEFORE the random distribution of roles, the GMs will determine whether the Sheriff is NORMAL or TRICKY. (50% each)

IF the sheriff is Normal, the Investigative Sheriff may choose to visit a player (notifying the GM’s before the EoN). The Investigative Sheriff will receive word from the GM whether that player is TOWN or SCUM.

If the sheriff is TRICKY, there is a further 50% chance that for the Investigative Sheriff’s FIRST investigation, everything is fine… but thereafter the Investigative Sheriff will continue to receive the same result as the first investigation.
OR
There is a further %50 chance that the sheriff will simply receive the OPPOSITE result of the scan’s true result.

I will wait a day or two… for any good corrections (I ask that you send them privately at this point) and then I will CHANGE the original posting for this game to include these ideas (in a less wordy format) to avoid confusion.

Sounds good Darg!

I'm a little confused on the Tricky sheriff. Are you saying there is a 50% chance Tricky Sheriff always receives the opposite of the true scan result? And 50% chance Tricky Sheriff instead receives the same scan report each night?

From my discussions with darg, the sheriff has a 50% chance of being regular and operating normally, and 50% chance of being tricky. Tricky could either mean 'always same as first scan' or 'opposite of true scan', with 50% chance of each. Perhaps a better way to think of it is:
50% chance that sheriff is regular
25% chance that sheriff always give the same result as first scan
25% chance that sheriff gives the opposite result

[dargorygel]

Will Lawmen flip as VT or as Lawmen if they haven't been "activated" yet? Will they flip as "potential Lawman"?

When Lawmen flip, will their "day of activation" be known?

For "Tricky" Sheriff: what does the "further 50% chance..." mean? Does it mean "All nights return the opposite of a correct result"? Does it mean "The first night result is return incorrect and then all further nights match that one"? Perhaps an example of the 2 possible Tricky Sheriffs would help.

First, you did not say, ##CALLGM." But I will answer you anyway.

First... UnActivated (TR) Lawmen will flip vanilla.

Second... Activated (TR) Lawmen will flip with their full information.

Third... My CoGM summarized it this way: for the sheriff, it's 50 normal/25 always same as first/25 always reversed?

Specifically... the first night in tricky sherriffing will be correct. And every scan thereafter will be the SAME as the first scan. ie. if scan the first day is 'scum' (because the scanned player IS scum), thereafter ALL the tricky sherrifing will see is Scum. He's sort of lazy.

The final kind of sheriff is simply ALWAYS wrong.

There is a 50% chance of normalcy. There is a 50% chance of silliness... and under THAT category, there is 50% chance of being tricksy, and 50% chance of being dumb and without detective skills.

[dargorygel]

Does bunny claim that I am his heart throb?

[dargorygel]

0. GM dargorygel
00. GM bonatogether
01. brainbomb
02. FlaviusAetius
03. Jamiet99uk
04. sweetandcool
05. DiplomacyAndwarfare
06. lfischl
07. President Eden
08. KingofthePirates
09. Balki
10. DemonRHK
11. Hamilton Brian
12. Worcej
13. ghug
14. damo666
15. Foodcoats
16. Rdrivera2005
17. bunnygo
18. Vecna
19. chaqa
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.

Plenty of time yet... and 19 is very workable, I think. But 25 would be nifty.

[DiplomacyandWarfare]

Love the new roles! Figuring out the Cop scans should be fun!

Will the Sheriff being Tricky or not, and what type of Tricky they are, be revealed if the Sheriff dies?

A few questions about the no-tying rule:

Is tying at the end of the day to intentionally sacrifice oneself acceptable behavior?
For example, let's say the current wagons are Player A (7) and Player B (8) (neither of which I am voting for), and I strongly think Player A is the Sheriff or otherwise would prefer that I am killed instead of Player A. Is voting for Player A with the intention of sacrificing myself a valid strategy? This feels like something that might come up, and I want to know whether this is a usable strategy or against the rules.
That can probably be summarized as follows:
Is intentionally tying allowed if dying is preferred to the alternative day resolution?

If someone cause a tie by leaving a wagon, are they considered responsible for the tie?
For example, if I was voting for Player A (10 votes), and Player B had 9 votes, and I switched to voting Player C (say, 5 votes), would I be modkilled?

Is NoKill allowed?

How will EoD situations in which multiple people are crossposting with votes be handled if a tie results?
For example, let's say Player A has 8 votes and Player B has 10 votes. Me and player C are voting for Player D (2 votes). With 10 seconds until EoD, I decide to switch to voting Player A, which appears to not cause a tie because it would result in Player A having 8 votes and Player B having 10 votes. However, Player C posts before me and changes to Player A, so my vote accidently ties the vote. How is this handled? Am I responsible for the tie despite having been crossposted?

If I may offer a suggestion, and it is acceptable to the Peterbot:
Rather than the player causing the tie being modkilled, perhaps the tied player who had more votes before the tie dies?


PS. ##CALL GM
PPS. Sorry if this comes across as a little bit critical. I think the gun-heavy setup is awesome, and I'm excited to play. I'll try to stop over-analyzing.

[Bonatogether]

Love the new roles! Figuring out the Cop scans should be fun!

Will the Sheriff being Tricky or not, and what type of Tricky they are, be revealed if the Sheriff dies?

A few questions about the no-tying rule:

Is tying at the end of the day to intentionally sacrifice oneself acceptable behavior?
For example, let's say the current wagons are Player A (7) and Player B (8) (neither of which I am voting for), and I strongly think Player A is the Sheriff or otherwise would prefer that I am killed instead of Player A. Is voting for Player A with the intention of sacrificing myself a valid strategy? This feels like something that might come up, and I want to know whether this is a usable strategy or against the rules.
That can probably be summarized as follows:
Is intentionally tying allowed if dying is preferred to the alternative day resolution?

If someone cause a tie by leaving a wagon, are they considered responsible for the tie?
For example, if I was voting for Player A (10 votes), and Player B had 9 votes, and I switched to voting Player C (say, 5 votes), would I be modkilled?

Is NoKill allowed?

How will EoD situations in which multiple people are crossposting with votes be handled if a tie results?
For example, let's say Player A has 8 votes and Player B has 10 votes. Me and player C are voting for Player D (2 votes). With 10 seconds until EoD, I decide to switch to voting Player A, which appears to not cause a tie because it would result in Player A having 8 votes and Player B having 10 votes. However, Player C posts before me and changes to Player A, so my vote accidently ties the vote. How is this handled? Am I responsible for the tie despite having been crossposted?

If I may offer a suggestion, and it is acceptable to the Peterbot:
Rather than the player causing the tie being modkilled, perhaps the tied player who had more votes before the tie dies?


PS. ##CALL GM
PPS. Sorry if this comes across as a little bit critical. I think the gun-heavy setup is awesome, and I'm excited to play. I'll try to stop over-analyzing.

will the sheriff's trickiness be revealed? - no. cannot recall precedent for such

is tying to be the kill acceptable? - as in all games, players are expected to play to something reasonably construed as towards their wincon. in practice, so long as you honestly don't believe that what you're doing is throwing, it's generally ok.

no-kill will not be taken at eod - someone will die at every eod as a result of voting. i believe this will be not a valid vote at eod, but i will confer with darg on how it specifically will be resolved.

in the first scenario you gave (moving off a wagon to produce a tie), you would be the dk (not technically a modkill as you didn't break a rule)

in the second scenario you gave (tying as a result of crossposting), you would be the dk. sucks to suck, but that's how it goes. in any event, we cannot tell what you could have seen or not, so it would be impossible to adjudicate

suggestion noted but not as funny. will be brought to darg's attention but idt this will be accepted

[Bonatogether]

darg decrees that no-kill votes at eod will result in modkill

[damo666]

I want to survive until at least the sheriff's second scan is revealed to get involved in a conversation about the probability of it being true. Please.

[dargorygel]

I want to survive until at least the sheriff's second scan is revealed to get involved in a conversation about the probability of it being true. Please.

I promise not to shoot you before D3.

[DiplomacyandWarfare]

I want to survive until at least the sheriff's second scan is revealed to get involved in a conversation about the probability of it being true. Please.

That's exactly what a mafia would say!
##VOTE DAMO
##END

[DiplomacyandWarfare]

##CALL GM
Will the Night Gunman be replaced by a Goon, a Day Gunman, or simply removed?

[dargorygel]

##CALL GM
Will the Night Gunman be replaced by a Goon, a Day Gunman, or simply removed?

A GREAT Question... Nighty will be replaced by a Dayey

[dargorygel]

A SLIGHT adjustment to this game (WHICH STARTS ON MONDAY)

Days will be 48 hours until Day 5 or 6 (depending on the total number of players, which effects the total number of PRs in the game.) Then Days will be 24 hours.

This should allow more time for PR action and analysis before we get to the sometimes draggy days where things tend to move faster.

TBH, part of the point of this aspect is to avoid hammering, which plays havoc on MY schedule.

[Jamiet99uk]

Confirm

[DiplomacyandWarfare]

I confirm that I have a gimmick prepared for this game.

[Jamiet99uk]

I would like to point out that I will be using this wild west style avatar for the entire game and I have set it now to avoid accusations being made against me by certain joyless ratbags once the game starts.

[BunnyGo]

I would like to point out that I will be using this wild west style avatar for the entire game and I have set it now to avoid accusations being made against me by certain joyless ratbags once the game starts.

I confirm I am a joyless ratbag.