Mafia 85: Return from Lockdown

[bozotheclown]

If it is mechanically best play to remove all decision making from players hands then you would want to decide who to coordinate all powers on and what the goal of that is, is it to maybe get a guilty scan?

I like Bozo's plan better than this.

Maybe I dont fully understand bozos plan but isnt the plan to just send all of us to the same place so scum cant coordinate anything?

No, I suggested the opposite, having every player select a different target.

[Jamiet99uk]

I'm assuming bob isn't usually a universal scum read?

It's about a year since he last played; I can't recall if there was a "usual".

[Kakarroto]

enforcing everyone to comply like making everyone go one down the list has another disadvantage, it sucks the fun out of the game. I was lucky enough to get town and now I know I'm PR, and I want to use it how I think is best, try to choose my target and live the best live, since I haven't gotten lucky in any games in a long, long while, regarding PR status (and the dancing ship doesn't really count, since I was being ignored anyway because everyone was that low power). The last game I can remember was the one I was gunsmith and gave the gun to a mafia, and bo_sox stole the show anyway.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Chaqa implied he is looking forward to the role madness and would probably not engage in the game as much as if he had free reign. Well that is, if he is town. Anyway, I'm not alone, I think, and others would probably engage more if they have the freedom to discover their role.

Maybe there is an optimal mechanical play for N1; I'm very doubtful it would be the optimal play if we consider fun into it.

I understand this position and have heard it expressed numerous times before, but in my opinion town should do whatever optimizes their chance of winning. Also, the setup is complex so it is not obvious if there is a problem with it, but if there is, as I suspect, the only way to know is to test it by using anything available to us to our advantage.

What about the information that mafia gains by everyone claiming plus everyone knowing everyones target? And using that to systematically removing the biggest PR threats?

I think it's fine to share information that happened to you, like "I was roleblocked" or "someone send me a mail", but sharing these on top with everyone knowing who did it just endangers easily confirmed PR's

[worcej]

enforcing everyone to comply like making everyone go one down the list has another disadvantage, it sucks the fun out of the game. I was lucky enough to get town and now I know I'm PR, and I want to use it how I think is best, try to choose my target and live the best live, since I haven't gotten lucky in any games in a long, long while, regarding PR status (and the dancing ship doesn't really count, since I was being ignored anyway because everyone was that low power). The last game I can remember was the one I was gunsmith and gave the gun to a mafia, and bo_sox stole the show anyway.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Chaqa implied he is looking forward to the role madness and would probably not engage in the game as much as if he had free reign. Well that is, if he is town. Anyway, I'm not alone, I think, and others would probably engage more if they have the freedom to discover their role.

Maybe there is an optimal mechanical play for N1; I'm very doubtful it would be the optimal play if we consider fun into it.

This statement encapsulates why I hate when mechanics get involved - it turns the game into just PR actions determining results and no hunting.

This is why town usually gets its ass handed to it in vanilla games lol…

[worcej]

worcej stances on frog are also a bit odd and he seems to have frog held in a very tier of towniness which im not sure anyone else agrees with.

Is it shocking I have a different opinion than people?

[BunnyGo]

Hi everyone!! Sorry for the late post, just getting caught up on everything now. going to take me a bit to read it all but ill post my thoughts once I've gone through the pages

Welcome! "Day 1" ends in almost exactly 3 hours. Be sure to vote before then.

[Frogsterking]

I feel like lfischl is being his usual overly serious and hedgy self here. Seems towny.

Coming from the player who hasn't played in a year? @Bob?

[worcej]

frogs bend over backward defense of chaqa is just weird anyway whether slip or not. the coaching comment can be explained by just being from some other forum where daychat is common maybe? frog hasnt really said where they play usually and if daychat is just normal.

I can tell you most forums have mafia day chat and it is quite commonplace.

that said I think all of that is irrelevant to just how bizarre the defense of chaqa actually was

You’re misunderstanding… read this…

Interesting point about being coached. I don’t see that it was ever specified that there is daychat.

You get a scum point.

Is there a daychat?

That would change my read entirely.

Worcej assumes Frog COULD be coached in a way we would not see.

Got’em.

huh? My entire opinion of frog is they are not being coached right now and I see them analyzing players accurately (at least in my opinion) in ways that normal new additions don’t do. Frog is actually hunting right now.

[Frogsterking]

Hi everyone!! Sorry for the late post, just getting caught up on everything now. going to take me a bit to read it all but ill post my thoughts once I've gone through the pages

Welcome! "Day 1" ends in almost exactly 3 hours. Be sure to vote before then.

Ouch, I thought I had more time, I'm with family this afternoon.

[Kakarroto]

Worcej can you provide examples of the deeper level reading?

The fact he actually figured out Chaqa.

The fact he comments on my style, which many people have pointed at as sounding scummy over many games.

He seems to be really reviewing each person more than just surface level stuff - trying to analyze styles and has asked confirmation questions about the styles

I don't think he actually figured out Chaqa's style.....

nobody has completely figured out chaqa's style, not even chaqa, and that comes from his former college room mate

[BunnyGo]

frogs bend over backward defense of chaqa is just weird anyway whether slip or not. the coaching comment can be explained by just being from some other forum where daychat is common maybe? frog hasnt really said where they play usually and if daychat is just normal.

I can tell you most forums have mafia day chat and it is quite commonplace.

that said I think all of that is irrelevant to just how bizarre the defense of chaqa actually was

You’re misunderstanding… read this…

Is there a daychat?

That would change my read entirely.

Worcej assumes Frog COULD be coached in a way we would not see.

Got’em.

I don't understand.

"Because he’s figuring out player styles at an impressive level and is not possibly being coached at this point."

"Because he’s not possibly being coached at this point."

"he's not being coached"

maybe it's an 'english second language' thing, but at no point I would read out here that worcej assumes that a hidden coaching is happening.

I would read here that worcej is 100% sure that NO coaching is happening, maybe a bit too sure so I could see an angle here that worcej knows without doubt (and without the rules stating it, as food claims, haven't checked it myself) that there is no day chat and that could give him maf points, but that's not what food is saying. Right?

No, you're exactly correct.

I was trying to remember if food was not a native english speaker.

[worcej]

Okay, so let’s talk people. I think worcej scumslipped about daychat. I’ve PMed our esteemed GMs because it is not documented in the rules that there is daychat and daychat is normally a “special condition” to Mafia if I’m not mistaken. Assuming there is daychat, you said that I misinterpreted worcej’s statement about Frog being coached. Worcej has not had a chance to say what he “really meant,” and I’d like him to respond first, but he’s not here. What do you think Frog “being coached” could’ve meant?

You're making no sense. Worcej mentioned that Frog *couldn't* be coached, implying worcej believed there was no daychat for Mafia, which is what every reasonable player in this game would assume, given the rules explained in the setup

Okay, I could be wrong here. Let’s see what the GMs say about scum chat.

What is your read on worcej otherwise? What makes you feel the need to defend him?

They aren’t really defending me, they are correcting you.

[BunnyGo]

Hi everyone!! Sorry for the late post, just getting caught up on everything now. going to take me a bit to read it all but ill post my thoughts once I've gone through the pages

Welcome! "Day 1" ends in almost exactly 3 hours. Be sure to vote before then.

Ouch, I thought I had more time, I'm with family this afternoon.

Have fun...don't forget to vote

[worcej]

Okay, I could be wrong here. Let’s see what the GMs say about scum chat.

What is your read on worcej otherwise? What makes you feel the need to defend him?

Your repeated claim that worcej said the exact opposite of what he actually said is incredibly aggravating.

Or maybe we're just paaaaaaiiiiiirrrrred.

I can never read worcej.

Well it is definitely not the exact opposite. That’s why we need worcej to clarify what he meant.

I’ve done that already.

[Kakarroto]

Hi everyone!! Sorry for the late post, just getting caught up on everything now. going to take me a bit to read it all but ill post my thoughts once I've gone through the pages

just as a heads up, it's less than 3 hours on my clock until EoD, so I hope you are a speedy reader.

It's crucial to have a valid vote (which is made by ##vote [insertName] ) or you might face replacement or elimination. Just as a heads up.

[bozotheclown]

No. No it is not.

It is to have everyone target the next person up from themselves, alphabetically, on the (surviving) player list. Like your N1 target would be BunnyGo, mine would be JustWill, etc.

Interesting. Doesnt that just gaurantee mafia can roleblock the person below the person they want to kill and then get a gauranteed kill?

No, because the Mafia do not know which of them is the Roleblocker, and one of the Mafia is a Driver which would interfere with a Roleblock, I think...

I am not certain about the driver, but the mafia would have to at least all target the same player to guarantee a role block, which would limit their information. I think there is another way they could avoid the doctor, but I don't think the chance of a N1 doctor save is high enough to affect the trade-off significantly.

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

Hi everyone!! Sorry for the late post, just getting caught up on everything now. going to take me a bit to read it all but ill post my thoughts once I've gone through the pages

Hello!

[bozotheclown]

enforcing everyone to comply like making everyone go one down the list has another disadvantage, it sucks the fun out of the game. I was lucky enough to get town and now I know I'm PR, and I want to use it how I think is best, try to choose my target and live the best live, since I haven't gotten lucky in any games in a long, long while, regarding PR status (and the dancing ship doesn't really count, since I was being ignored anyway because everyone was that low power). The last game I can remember was the one I was gunsmith and gave the gun to a mafia, and bo_sox stole the show anyway.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Chaqa implied he is looking forward to the role madness and would probably not engage in the game as much as if he had free reign. Well that is, if he is town. Anyway, I'm not alone, I think, and others would probably engage more if they have the freedom to discover their role.

Maybe there is an optimal mechanical play for N1; I'm very doubtful it would be the optimal play if we consider fun into it.

I understand this position and have heard it expressed numerous times before, but in my opinion town should do whatever optimizes their chance of winning. Also, the setup is complex so it is not obvious if there is a problem with it, but if there is, as I suspect, the only way to know is to test it by using anything available to us to our advantage.

What about the information that mafia gains by everyone claiming plus everyone knowing everyones target? And using that to systematically removing the biggest PR threats?

I think it's fine to share information that happened to you, like "I was roleblocked" or "someone send me a mail", but sharing these on top with everyone knowing who did it just endangers easily confirmed PR's

Yes, matching players with their roles provides information to the mafia to use for the NKs, but if we match enough players with their roles fast enough, it will not matter. I think it is very likely we will be able gain information at a rate that the mafia will not be able to keep up. I also considered that a no-kill D1 could be to town's advantage, because it does not cost us a mis-kill unless there is a doctor save, and has the potential to delay our last available mis-kill by a day, which would give us more time to sort roles.

[Frogsterking]

If bozo usually does the mech stuff at the beginning of D1 then I think the timing of when they're bring it up now is +scum. If we don't trust bozo but like their idea then we can always inverse their plan by targeting the preceding living player on the master list.

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

Last game’s final 2 days were so quiet. I don’t want this to turn into that again