Mafia 88: Murder at the Meadery - GAME THREAD

[Lord of Words]

##vote Lord

I am demonstrating that avoiding a Hamkill is my main objective.

That's your main objective? Really?

That is quite foolish to me.

And even if that were your main objective, we're more than 24 hours out from the daykill. You know that the wagons are going to change substantially between now and EOD. Why not vote for the slot that you think is most likely to flip scum and try to convince others to join? The current wagons are written in pencil.

Because something is up with him and Sweet. Spart I think is just following the wagon despite his analyses.

[Lord of Words]

Now seem like a good time to also ask a few question regarding Ham:

1.Why is he alive given his cop claim the last day?

2. Why are relying on a clerk to scan to him when, to my eye, we don't even know who the clerk and clearing him exposes the clerk?

3. Besides the crumbs, which are not really proof of him being a cop or town, what real proof have we seen from Ham?

[Bonatogether]

can we just kill the damn pr claim

Scumclaim?

thanks sweet

[Bonatogether]

bonzo is annoying me

[bozotheclown]

@bozo

I do value town!bozo’s hunting and perspective quite a bit.

Can you convince me of the game you’re seeing? None of what you’re suggesting has made sense to me yet, but if you’re town, I’d like to understand.

I will start with this: why do you think sweetandcool, Bonatogether, and Jamie are not mafia? The consensus seems to be this:

surely you're not seriously suggesting that this is a problem meriting anything. people will do what they want to do, people will flip, people will adjust. this isn't real.

still about the game and not in the game

Ya i mean im just posting my thoughts so idk. I didn’t suggest we do anything to remedy this (like you’re implying im trying to do), its just an assessment of the situation

it's projecting the image of being useful when it's really useless

##vote will

In order of willingness to vote for:

ghug
Jamiet
Will

Not willing to vote for:

bona
Balki
brainbomb

Actually, those are just my top three in no particular order. Equally happy to vote them.

Lets try to ##VOTE Will

Thanks.

##VOTE Balki
##END

See you all next phase.

##Vote Sweetandcool.

This is directly anti-town behaviour.

Ok Jamie is town this sounds like something he said a few games ago

However, why did Bonatogether wait so long to vote for Just? Why did sweetandcool reconsider his preferred voting order and vote for Just? Why would Just be so obvious about pocketing Jamie? Why didn't Jamie suspect Just was trying to pocket him?

Also, Bonatogether and Jamie being quick to vote for sweetandcool D2 is suspicious, I don't remember them explaining why they did not give him any credit for starting the Just wagon.

[sweetandcool]

Now seem like a good time to also ask a few question regarding Ham:

1.Why is he alive given his cop claim the last day?

2. Why are relying on a clerk to scan to him when, to my eye, we don't even know who the clerk and clearing him exposes the clerk?

3. Besides the crumbs, which are not really proof of him being a cop or town, what real proof have we seen from Ham?

Given that you are an experienced player I reckon you should be able to put forth opinions and answers on these questions.

[Lord of Words]

I'm also asking for more scrutiny on Damo given that the dude shot our item smith and is in my scum reads list.

Let's not be passive about this.

[Spartaculous]

Now seem like a good time to also ask a few question regarding Ham:

1.Why is he alive given his cop claim the last day?

2. Why are relying on a clerk to scan to him when, to my eye, we don't even know who the clerk and clearing him exposes the clerk?

3. Besides the crumbs, which are not really proof of him being a cop or town, what real proof have we seen from Ham?

Ham is one of my top two town reads. My main goal tomorrow will be preventing him from being voted out. You've already had some of these questions answered for you, but I will attempt to collect the pro-Ham arguments together.

First, why is he alive?

Since Ham is here, I'm going to ask that if there was fair amount of belief that Ham was a cop ... why is he still alive?

Seems he would be a prime scum target. Explain this to me.

It's ä mystery.

Because the claim looked weak so they took a kill on an experienced player who might have been PR assuming if Ham was left we would mk him today as he clearly wasn't Clerk.

Second, why does his fake claim not make him look suspicious?

Didn't Hamilton retract his cop claim, though?

yes but the day one crumb is undeniable so either

a) Ham is CLERK in which case he should reveal his scans before he gets NKd N3

b) Ham is VT and prepared this to eat a NK if a) scum spotted it b) he was in danger and could point to it

c) Ham is scum and craftily prepared this to avoid an early DK and sniff out the real clerk.

I dismiss a) and think b) closer to Ham mo and charcter than c).

c) is a bit high risk.

Conclusion Ham is VT.

To all the townsfolk voting Ham:

Imagine you are PR, particularly Cop, you claim EoD, you survive the night.

Wouldn't your next step be to retract the claim at start of day?

Consequently anyone voting Ham is essentially voting unCC Cop.

And before someone squawks, obviously the real Clerk, if they are not Ham, should not bother with a CC.

Third, what other evidence is there that he is town?

Why is everyone falling into the incredibly obvious trap that the Mafia have set to get Ham to be a miskill today? Ham is one of my top two town reads. (It's him and the pirate king.)

We know that Will loves to talk. Especially about his teammates.

Go back to Will's original reads list. What don't you see there?

Reads List: Ordered

TOWN: Would not flip today
—
Spart
Lord
Jamie
Sweet
—
—
LEAN TOWN: Would only flip if alternative is higher up
—
Ghug
King
Food
—
—
NULL: Would (also) only flip if alternative is higher up
—
DrFid
Worcej
Balki
Rdr
Damo
—
—
SCUM: Would flip today
—
Vecna
Bunny
Bozo
Bona

I think there is absolutely *no chance* Will would have neglected to include any of his Mafia teammates on this list. No chance whatsoever.

With so many people playing at the start, it can be easy to forget one of them.

Will must just have forgotten about Ham. Ham is town.

Fourth, what should we do?

Furthermore, if Ham is Town, which I now believe, then not DKing him is brilliant. Then Mafia either run the risk that Ham is really the Clerk, or they "waste" the NK on him, when they would really rather that we do there work for them.

If Ham is town we force Mafia to NK him.

If Ham is Mafia, worst case our Clerk scans him. Though I like to think we would catch him without that.

Timeline:

Ham crumbs that he is a Clerk on D1. Presumably it wasn't noticed by anybody, but damo found it since Ham told us about it and it clearly spells out "CLERK".

End of day 2 Ham hamfistedly soft claims Clerk in the most unbelievable way possible.

Unsurprisingly, Mafia didn't believe his claim and NK ghug.

Now Ham has renounced his claim, saying he setup the claim D1 as a way to eat the NK at some point.
----------------------------------------------

Now what we should do about this is quite obvious:

Case 1: Ham is Town, possibly actually a great actor and actually the Clerk (I believe this).

Then we should not DK him. Force Mafia to either NK him, focus their role blocks on him, or even ignore him, which would be awesome if he is actually the Clerk.

Case 2: Ham is Mafia.

If we incorrectly do the best play, assuming Case 1, then worst case our Clerk will catch him. Though it is likely we would eventually catch him. Certainly he wouldn't be allowed to make it to final 3.

TLDR Ham should not be up for the vote today.

[Balki Bartokomous]

Now seem like a good time to also ask a few question regarding Ham:

1.Why is he alive given his cop claim the last day?

2. Why are relying on a clerk to scan to him when, to my eye, we don't even know who the clerk and clearing him exposes the clerk?

3. Besides the crumbs, which are not really proof of him being a cop or town, what real proof have we seen from Ham?

My approach to the Hamilton situation is to let it breath a bit. Early claims/fake claims tend to become more clear with the passage of time.

[bozotheclown]

Now seem like a good time to also ask a few question regarding Ham:

1.Why is he alive given his cop claim the last day?

2. Why are relying on a clerk to scan to him when, to my eye, we don't even know who the clerk and clearing him exposes the clerk?

3. Besides the crumbs, which are not really proof of him being a cop or town, what real proof have we seen from Ham?

I don't think anyone can be sure of what Hamilton is doing, but I think the idea is that it is not necessary to force the issue D3 when there is still a chance he is the cop.

[Balki Bartokomous]

I'm also asking for more scrutiny on Damo given that the dude shot our item smith and is in my scum reads list.

Let's not be passive about this.

Yeah -- that was bad. It was very anti-town, in both process and result.

But the part of it that gives me pause is that he targeted foodcoats, and I can't see how he could have known that Foodcoats was a PR. So it's a pretty unusual process for Scum!Damo to target foodcoats (who was a likely miskill target), and then, upon seeing that the only person who knew he had the bees is gone, confessing his sins.

On the other hand, I don't think that Damo's other contributions have been very helpful, and it is hard for me to see his thought process. He is still part of my Process of Elimination, but he is not as high as others.

[Spartaculous]

I'm also asking for more scrutiny on Damo given that the dude shot our item smith and is in my scum reads list.

Let's not be passive about this.

Let's set the record straight. damo didn't shoot foodcoats. He released a swarm of angry bees in the general direction of foodcoats.

But the part of it that gives me pause is that he targeted foodcoats, and I can't see how he could have known that Foodcoats was a PR. So it's a pretty unusual process for Scum!Damo to target foodcoats (who was a likely miskill target), and then, upon seeing that the only person who knew he had the bees is gone, confessing his sins.

What makes you think that foodcoats was a likely miskill target?

[bozotheclown]

sweetandcool and Bonatogether were the top wagons when they voted for Just, either one could independently be mafia with Just trying to distance vote, not necessarily trying to get the GF DKed.

[Balki Bartokomous]

What makes you think that foodcoats was a likely miskill target?

That is my sense of his position in the thread based on things folks (including me) were saying about him both Day 1 and Day 2. I could be biased by my own impression of his alignment at that time, but I thought he was a slot that would probably be daykilled at some point, and he did not have a favorable Day 1 vote to take him out of (or drop him lower in) the POE.

Do you disagree?

[bozotheclown]

Liking Will's pressure on Bonbonbonbona here

he literally didn't push me on anything except for how i feel about 'it'

it's all image

Exactly one of you is town.

I think it's him.

Do you think that's possible?

Do you think Bona vs Just was scum theatre? Really?

It does not seem likely now, but I would not rule it out yet.

Alright.

You think that.

I would rule it out. Bona is town.

I think Jamie saying "exactly one" of Bonatogether and Just is town was suspicious. I thought at the time it could be T vs. T, and I don't see why Jamie dismissed that as a possibility, as well as dismissing S vs. S as a possibility.

[bozotheclown]

I also thought Spartaculous only getting town votes D1 was a good indication the mafia were bussing or Spartaculous is mafia, and I now think Spartaculous is town.

[Lord of Words]

Now seem like a good time to also ask a few question regarding Ham:

1.Why is he alive given his cop claim the last day?

2. Why are relying on a clerk to scan to him when, to my eye, we don't even know who the clerk and clearing him exposes the clerk?

3. Besides the crumbs, which are not really proof of him being a cop or town, what real proof have we seen from Ham?

Ham is one of my top two town reads. My main goal tomorrow will be preventing him from being voted out. You've already had some of these questions answered for you, but I will attempt to collect the pro-Ham arguments together.

First, why is he alive?

It's ä mystery.

Because the claim looked weak so they took a kill on an experienced player who might have been PR assuming if Ham was left we would mk him today as he clearly wasn't Clerk.

Second, why does his fake claim not make him look suspicious?

Didn't Hamilton retract his cop claim, though?

yes but the day one crumb is undeniable so either

a) Ham is CLERK in which case he should reveal his scans before he gets NKd N3

b) Ham is VT and prepared this to eat a NK if a) scum spotted it b) he was in danger and could point to it

c) Ham is scum and craftily prepared this to avoid an early DK and sniff out the real clerk.

I dismiss a) and think b) closer to Ham mo and charcter than c).

c) is a bit high risk.

Conclusion Ham is VT.

To all the townsfolk voting Ham:

Imagine you are PR, particularly Cop, you claim EoD, you survive the night.

Wouldn't your next step be to retract the claim at start of day?

Consequently anyone voting Ham is essentially voting unCC Cop.

And before someone squawks, obviously the real Clerk, if they are not Ham, should not bother with a CC.

Third, what other evidence is there that he is town?

Why is everyone falling into the incredibly obvious trap that the Mafia have set to get Ham to be a miskill today? Ham is one of my top two town reads. (It's him and the pirate king.)

We know that Will loves to talk. Especially about his teammates.

Go back to Will's original reads list. What don't you see there?

Reads List: Ordered

TOWN: Would not flip today
—
Spart
Lord
Jamie
Sweet
—
—
LEAN TOWN: Would only flip if alternative is higher up
—
Ghug
King
Food
—
—
NULL: Would (also) only flip if alternative is higher up
—
DrFid
Worcej
Balki
Rdr
Damo
—
—
SCUM: Would flip today
—
Vecna
Bunny
Bozo
Bona

I think there is absolutely *no chance* Will would have neglected to include any of his Mafia teammates on this list. No chance whatsoever.

With so many people playing at the start, it can be easy to forget one of them.

Will must just have forgotten about Ham. Ham is town.

Fourth, what should we do?

Furthermore, if Ham is Town, which I now believe, then not DKing him is brilliant. Then Mafia either run the risk that Ham is really the Clerk, or they "waste" the NK on him, when they would really rather that we do there work for them.

If Ham is town we force Mafia to NK him.

If Ham is Mafia, worst case our Clerk scans him. Though I like to think we would catch him without that.

Timeline:

Ham crumbs that he is a Clerk on D1. Presumably it wasn't noticed by anybody, but damo found it since Ham told us about it and it clearly spells out "CLERK".

End of day 2 Ham hamfistedly soft claims Clerk in the most unbelievable way possible.

Unsurprisingly, Mafia didn't believe his claim and NK ghug.

Now Ham has renounced his claim, saying he setup the claim D1 as a way to eat the NK at some point.
----------------------------------------------

Now what we should do about this is quite obvious:

Case 1: Ham is Town, possibly actually a great actor and actually the Clerk (I believe this).

Then we should not DK him. Force Mafia to either NK him, focus their role blocks on him, or even ignore him, which would be awesome if he is actually the Clerk.

Case 2: Ham is Mafia.

If we incorrectly do the best play, assuming Case 1, then worst case our Clerk will catch him. Though it is likely we would eventually catch him. Certainly he wouldn't be allowed to make it to final 3.

TLDR Ham should not be up for the vote today.

This neither hard proof he is a cop/clerk or town nor you given a foolproof solution respectfully.

[Lord of Words]

Here is a compromise. How about the people on Hamilton Brain train hop onto Sweet with me or the Bozo train can jump on Ham if he isn't off-limits.

I also have yet to hear a reasonable explanation for Damo.

[Spartaculous]

What makes you think that foodcoats was a likely miskill target?

That is my sense of his position in the thread based on things folks (including me) were saying about him both Day 1 and Day 2. I could be biased by my own impression of his alignment at that time, but I thought he was a slot that would probably be daykilled at some point, and he did not have a favorable Day 1 vote to take him out of (or drop him lower in) the POE.

Do you disagree?

Last post for the night. No, I don't disagree. Just trying to get more explanation here.

I wasn't really paying attention to this kind of stuff at that time (beginning of Day 2): I was mostly just thinking about how it all affected me and my chances for survival (instead of looking for the bigger picture). I did go back and check out some things. It looks like foodcoats wasn't really under heavy voting pressure on Day 1, but there were multiple people expressing suspicion of him early on Day 2.

I actually think it is intriguing, though, to look at damo's own comments:

I should have stung one of my voters, they were virtually guaranteed to not be beekeeper

I read this as a confession.

Why did you make this choice?

his vote pattern

foodcoats did a lot of voting on Day 1:

Bon -> kin -> Lor -> Bon -> Bal -> Spa -> Bon -> Spa

[I just realized that our abbreviations are also those for provinces, but we aren't adjacent.]

Presumably, it wasn't the votes of me that bothered damo:

Better redeem myself

##vote spartaculous

So which vote(s) bothered him?

[damo666]

Now seem like a good time to also ask a few question regarding Ham:

1.Why is he alive given his cop claim the last day?

2. Why are relying on a clerk to scan to him when, to my eye, we don't even know who the clerk and clearing him exposes the clerk?

3. Besides the crumbs, which are not really proof of him being a cop or town, what real proof have we seen from Ham?

1 and 3 have already been sufficiently and efficiently answered.

Wrt 2 how many days do you expect the Clerk to risk not revealing and becoming a NK and town learning nothing from the valuable scans (absence of GF means town implies town)?

I think Day 4 not unreasonable so clerk assuming they survive until tomorrow can tell us (including the unlikely case of Ham himself).

Yes, clerk has to reveal themselves to do this but they have to at some stage else they become essentially a dead vt (barring any strong reads they've left but it's not so concrete).