Austria vs Bots

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DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#261 Post by DougJoe » Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:06 am

DougJoe wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:02 am
Got Mar, Spa, and Bud. Will get Vie, can't also get Por this turn. Sev will try for Moscow but will probably get bounced. Will push into Tyo as well.
No issues, kept all three. France did move to MAO so I can't sneak into Por this turn, but I should be able to punch up to War or Mos without any trouble.

Germany *finally* moved out of his homeland.

Should be academic at this point. Not sure my builds matter, but probably another fleet Smy and two armies.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#262 Post by DougJoe » Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:19 am

DougJoe wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:06 am

No issues, kept all three. France did move to MAO so I can't sneak into Por this turn, but I should be able to punch up to War or Mos without any trouble.

Germany *finally* moved out of his homeland.

Should be academic at this point. Not sure my builds matter, but probably another fleet Smy and two armies.
...and that's the game. Another Turkish solo. 37 solos out of 52 games for a 71.15% solo rate... and 37 out of 50 with the Ank->Con, Smy->Ank opening, for a 74% solo rate.

It wasn't easy, but it wasn't hard either.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#263 Post by Trigfea63 » Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:40 am

Congrats - nice solo!

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#264 Post by Trigfea63 » Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:06 am

A closing observation on Doug's games. In both his England game and his Turkey game, he was willing to temporarily sacrifice supply-center gains to solidify his position. And it paid off in both games. It's a good reminder. I think in those situations I might have been more aggressive/impatient.

I should also wrap up T-0129. I've looked over the board. There aren't any great options for Austria. Continuing to defend Trieste still seems like the best choice. I could try to wander the Budapest army north, to try to take Warsaw. But then what? Unless Italy backs off, I can't really follow it up effectively. Turkey and France will just carve up Russia that much faster.

The Spring 1908 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

The Autumn 1908 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

France is up to 12 and it does not look like anything will stop him from getting to 18. Italy and Turkey need to back off attacking me and Russia and block France in the south. But I doubt they will.

The Spring 1909 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

The Autumn 1909 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

France at 16 SCs. Italy and Turkey still hammering away at me and Russia. France built a fleet in Marseilles.

The Spring 1910 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

The Autumn 1910 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

France at 17, and can't be stopped from taking Tunis. Italy still attacking me. Turkey takes the Ionian.

The Spring 1911 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

The Autumn 1911 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Mercifully, it ends.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#265 Post by DougJoe » Thu Sep 08, 2022 12:55 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:06 am
A closing observation on Doug's games. In both his England game and his Turkey game, he was willing to temporarily sacrifice supply-center gains to solidify his position. And it paid off in both games. It's a good reminder. I think in those situations I might have been more aggressive/impatient.

Mercifully, it ends.
Yeah, sometimes I do that. There are times against the bots where being more aggressive can pay off as well, I think. It's very situational.

Well, it could have been worse... I guess I was right when I predicted the French solo a while back.

I suppose it's my turn to play as Austria now?

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#266 Post by Trigfea63 » Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:09 am

DougJoe wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2022 12:55 am
Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:06 am
A closing observation on Doug's games. In both his England game and his Turkey game, he was willing to temporarily sacrifice supply-center gains to solidify his position. And it paid off in both games. It's a good reminder. I think in those situations I might have been more aggressive/impatient.

Mercifully, it ends.
Yeah, sometimes I do that. There are times against the bots where being more aggressive can pay off as well, I think. It's very situational.

Well, it could have been worse... I guess I was right when I predicted the French solo a while back.

I suppose it's my turn to play as Austria now?
Sure, that sounds good. I'll take a random country?

Before we begin, a couple of closing comments on my Austria game. I wonder if it wasn't a mistake to hit back at Italy when Italy attacked in Spring '01. I managed to get 2 builds in 1901. Maybe the better course would have been to defend against Italy with 2 or 3 units, and use the other 2 or 3 to go after Turkey? Italy has such a strong defensive position against Austria, it is very difficult to make progress through TRI/ADR/VEN. On the other hand, having the 2nd fleet in the Adriatic really stopped Italy's attack cold. With maybe 1 or 2 better guesses, I might have been able to break out into a potential solo position. Big picture, I guess I'm not prepared to concede that all hope is lost as Austria if bot-Italy attacks. At least, so long as the attack is VEN-->TYR, ROM-->VEN, and Russia and Turkey are at war (as they were in this game).

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#267 Post by DougJoe » Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:17 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:09 am

Sure, that sounds good. I'll take a random country?

Before we begin, a couple of closing comments on my Austria game. I wonder if it wasn't a mistake to hit back at Italy when Italy attacked in Spring '01. I managed to get 2 builds in 1901. Maybe the better course would have been to defend against Italy with 2 or 3 units, and use the other 2 or 3 to go after Turkey? Italy has such a strong defensive position against Austria, it is very difficult to make progress through TRI/ADR/VEN. On the other hand, having the 2nd fleet in the Adriatic really stopped Italy's attack cold. With maybe 1 or 2 better guesses, I might have been able to break out into a potential solo position. Big picture, I guess I'm not prepared to concede that all hope is lost as Austria if bot-Italy attacks. At least, so long as the attack is VEN-->TYR, ROM-->VEN, and Russia and Turkey are at war (as they were in this game).
Honestly, it's hard to say - Italy was being pretty singled minded about attacking you and you only had a couple of turn window to get it "right".

I ended up starting another game a few days ago (before I wrote my previous message) and randomly drew France. I didn't do the full turn-by-turn write up here, but I will do the short version catchup now and continue as I go. When this game is done, I'll do Austria.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=438067

S1901 - I played my favorite opening, MAO,Gas,Spa. England moved to ENC, Italy stayed out of Pie, Germany stayed out of Bur.
F1901 - I correctly guessed that England wanted Bel, not Bre. Italy took Tun with a fleet, which always makes me a bit nervous as France. Decided to build two fleets, just in case, although I have no intent of attacking Italy at this time.
S1902 - Want to get all the units back as much as possible. Thinking about how to attack England - The Spa/Mar logjam is annoying, I'm going to move to GoL to make room...
F1902 - ...and I think I just provoked Italy by that move to GoL, even though I'm setup to take Lvp next year. Austria is down to 1 already, and R/T looks like they are cooperating...
S1903 - Made a mistake here by moving the fleets against Italy defensively instead of convoying to Lvp which was the original plan. I won't hold Lvp, of course.
A1903 - Ok, Italy and I have avoided coming to blows. Pushing against England. Germany is doing very well, not sure what I think about that.
S1904 - Moving on England. Germany's in Norway, hoo boy. Italy is still going after Turkey.
F1904 - Rather than try a convoy, I'm going to push towards ENC. I'll keep the armies away from Germany but it makes me nervous. Turkey is in the Ionian, not sure what I think about that.
S1905 - Now we convoy to Lvp and I'm a little nervous about Germany so I move Gas->Bur. Turkey gets into TYS (yuk!). Germany convoys to Yorkshire.
F1905 - I decide it's time to go after Germany, I don't feel like I'll get the chance later. I use ENC/Bur to take Bel and circle the fleets around to take NWS. Turkey and Italy are bouncing.
S1906 - Keep Germany out of Edi and prep to force it. I tried to support NTH but England moved it to Den (which is both good and bad). I also move to Bur, thinking about how to attack Germany over land.
F1906 - I take Edi, ENC supports London to try to keep Germany from getting it but it doesn't matter, as England defends it on his own. Germany gains Mos, though, so he doesn't lose any centers. Sadness. I try for Mun and get bounced - maybe Ruh would have been better? Not sure. Turkey is still in TYS. Germany loses another army.
S1907 - I take the North Sea and move a fleet south as insurance against whatever is going on in the south. I go into Ruh instead of trying for Mun and get it.
F1907 - I give up NTH to take London and Yorkshire - as expected, both units retreat to Wales and are destroyed (getting rid of the German army on the isle.) I try for Hol and don't get it, and end up building F Mar because of Turkey moving to GoL (I want to avoid guessing games down there).
S1908 - I take back NTH and get into Hol. Turkey moves to WMS, which is *really* annoying because I don't want him to sneak into MAO.
F1908 - I use ENC and Spa to bounce in MAO to keep Turkey from moving there. I try to convoy to Norway which was probably a mistake - I should have moved Edi->Bel, Bel->Ruh and taken the chance of losing Holland. I build F Bre.
S1909 - I move NTH->NWG (it seemed like a good idea, maybe Ska would have been better, but NWG keeps Nwy from out-flanking me.) I get Bre out into MAO, and move to GoL, but *of course* Italy goes to Pie. Germany is still overwhelming Russia, and Italy/Turkey hasn't changed much but Italy in Galicia might tip the balance...
F1909 - Germany gets Mos and another build. I keep Italy out of Mar. We bounce in NTH.
S1910 - Brining back MAO to contest NTH, it'll take a few turns. Germany gets into Ruh. Germany also takes Sev. Damn. Turkey moves to GoL. Turmoil in the Balkans.
F1910 - I moved to Kiel. Why did I move to Kiel? I don't remember. I got in at the cost of Holland. Still heading for NTH. Russia survived by moving into Ank, which means Turkey lost a center and it was WMS (which again, I'm not sure about).
S1911 - Italy moved out of Pie. Hooray! I got back into Hol, but I have a feeling I'm not going to keep it. Italy also moved fleets east (and traded Ser/Rum with Turkey again).
F1911 - I finally got into NTH and lost Hol but kept Kie because Germany took it from there. Rebuilt the army in Paris. Italy moved back to Pie (boo) and is collapsing fast on Turkey and got two builds to boot. It looks mighty like I'm going to be the odd man out here between the three of us.

So it's France at 10, Germany at 10, and Italy at 10... Have to think really hard about how to manage this hornet's nest.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#268 Post by Trigfea63 » Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:28 pm

Wow, you're already in 1912! I agree, you're in the toughest spot of the three leaders. Bot-Germany and bot-Italy seem to have ironed out any differences. Italy has so many units already deployed in Turkey, it's hard to see what another fleet could possibly do there. You should expect the Naples fleet to move west. Strategically, I can't see how you avoid all-out war with Germany. And you'll lose if it becomes G/I vs. F. Probably the best you can do is focus all energies on Germany, leave a minimal force in the Med and try to keep peace with Italy for as long as reasonably possible.

I'm opening up my new bot-game right now. And the random country is ... (drumroll please) ...

Turkey!

The game is T-0134. Here's the link: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=439208

As in your Youth game, I will open with the classic CON-->BUL, SMY-->CON, ANK-->BLA. I much prefer allying with Russia when I'm Turkey. R/T is a natural alliance. It gives both players opportunities. A/T and I/T can be done, but they're awfully tricky in a human press game, even more so in a bot-game.

The Spring '01 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Italy opened VEN-->TYR, ROM-->VEN, and Russia opened with the usual moves. That's going to mean opportunities for your Turkish correspondent. Austria also opened with the usual moves, but will surely have to pull back to defend against Italy. Nothing particularly interesting in the west. After Spring '01, a game filled with promise.

The big question for Autumn '01: Serbia, or Greece?

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#269 Post by Trigfea63 » Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:54 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:28 pm
Wow, you're already in 1912! I agree, you're in the toughest spot of the three leaders. Bot-Germany and bot-Italy seem to have ironed out any differences. Italy has so many units already deployed in Turkey, it's hard to see what another fleet could possibly do there. You should expect the Naples fleet to move west. Strategically, I can't see how you avoid all-out war with Germany. And you'll lose if it becomes G/I vs. F. Probably the best you can do is focus all energies on Germany, leave a minimal force in the Med and try to keep peace with Italy for as long as reasonably possible.

I'm opening up my new bot-game right now. And the random country is ... (drumroll please) ...

Turkey!

The game is T-0134. Here's the link: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=439208

As in your Youth game, I will open with the classic CON-->BUL, SMY-->CON, ANK-->BLA. I much prefer allying with Russia when I'm Turkey. R/T is a natural alliance. It gives both players opportunities. A/T and I/T can be done, but they're awfully tricky in a human press game, even more so in a bot-game.

The Spring '01 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Italy opened VEN-->TYR, ROM-->VEN, and Russia opened with the usual moves. That's going to mean opportunities for your Turkish correspondent. Austria also opened with the usual moves, but will surely have to pull back to defend against Italy. Nothing particularly interesting in the west. After Spring '01, a game filled with promise.

The big question for Autumn '01: Serbia, or Greece?
Alright, let's run one more season. I expect Italy will attack Trieste with 2, and Austria will defend with Serbia supported by Vienna. That means if I move to Serbia, I probably bounce and Austria gets Greece. If I move to Greece, I probably bounce but Austria is limited to 1 build. That's probably better. Greece it is. Ankara will move to Black Sea again. It's not the friendliest toward Russia, but it gives me more freedom to push the Bulgaria army forward without much risk. I can back it up with CON-->BUL supported by BLA.

The Autumn '01 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Mostly as I expected. Austria switched up the defense of Trieste: VIE-->TRI supported by SER. If I had attacked Serbia, I would have cut the support and Italy would have captured Trieste. I'm now very glad I hit Greece, not Serbia. The last thing I need is Italy in Trieste, then Vienna. Bot-Austria should have known better though. Russia got armies to Galicia and Rumania. Austria's as good as dead. But, he can still "throw" the advantage to whichever one of Italy, Russia, and myself he wants. He built an army in Trieste, so he's probably defending against Italy, and favoring Russia. Germany bounced Russia out of Sweden. That's good for me, too, Russia shouldn't get too big too fast. The western triangle is yet to develop.

The goal for 1902: Capture Greece.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#270 Post by DougJoe » Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:02 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:54 pm
Wow, you're already in 1912! I agree, you're in the toughest spot of the three leaders. Bot-Germany and bot-Italy seem to have ironed out any differences. Italy has so many units already deployed in Turkey, it's hard to see what another fleet could possibly do there. You should expect the Naples fleet to move west. Strategically, I can't see how you avoid all-out war with Germany. And you'll lose if it becomes G/I vs. F. Probably the best you can do is focus all energies on Germany, leave a minimal force in the Med and try to keep peace with Italy for as long as reasonably possible.
Yeah, I'm wishing that army in Edi was either on the mainland or a fleet. I am expecting the Naples fleet to move to TYS...
Trigfea63 wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:54 pm
As in your Youth game, I will open with the classic CON-->BUL, SMY-->CON, ANK-->BLA.
Actually, I opened slightly differently in my game: Con->Bul, Ank->Con, Smy-Ank.
Trigfea63 wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:54 pm
The Autumn '01 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

The goal for 1902: Capture Greece.
Russia built an Army in the north, which is also good for you. Italy attacking Austria definitely makes it easier on you. It'll be interesting to see what the two Italian fleets do this turn. You might even want to consider backing out of BLA into Con.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#271 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:54 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:02 am
Yeah, I'm wishing that army in Edi was either on the mainland or a fleet.
Indeed. I was about to comment that NWG-->Barents and EDI-->NWG looked like a promising avenue of attack. Then I noticed EDI is an army. :o
DougJoe wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:02 am
Actually, I opened slightly differently in my game: Con->Bul, Ank->Con, Smy-Ank.

It'll be interesting to see what the two Italian fleets do this turn. You might even want to consider backing out of BLA into Con.
Hmm. I had forgotten you opened that way in Youth. And your advice on pulling out of BLA is consistent. It's a little awkward to pull out of BLA at this point. I'd have to move the CON army out of the way somehow. I suppose I could advance the CON army and order BLA-->CON. If the CON move fails, so does the BLA move. Since Italy captured Tunis with a fleet, he's a move behind in marshaling a Lepanto attack, if that's the direction his bot-brain tells him to go. It might also be hard for him to attack Austria and also do a Lepanto. I think I'll stay in BLA for 1 more turn at least and see how it goes. I take your point, though. Your 70+% win percentage as Turkey makes me believe you know wherefrom you speak.

The Spring '02 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

The Fall '02 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Well, I didn't get Greece. The good news: Russia got Budapest, and supported me into Serbia. If I had gone to Serbia, I would have gotten it. Also, Italy didn't get Trieste, which is good, but now he's got 3 on Trieste for 1903. So Austria will have to choose where he wants to defend: Greece or Trieste. If I attack Serbia again in 1903, Italy gets Trieste for sure, and I get Serbia if Russia supports me again. If I attack Greece, and Serbia defends Trieste, that's a bigger win: I get Greece and Italy gets nothing. On the other hand, if I attack Greece and Serbia defends Greece, I get nothing and Italy gets Trieste. Hmm.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#272 Post by DougJoe » Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:46 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:54 pm

The Fall '02 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Well, I didn't get Greece. The good news: Russia got Budapest, and supported me into Serbia. If I had gone to Serbia, I would have gotten it. Also, Italy didn't get Trieste, which is good, but now he's got 3 on Trieste for 1903. So Austria will have to choose where he wants to defend: Greece or Trieste. If I attack Serbia again in 1903, Italy gets Trieste for sure, and I get Serbia if Russia supports me again. If I attack Greece, and Serbia defends Trieste, that's a bigger win: I get Greece and Italy gets nothing. On the other hand, if I attack Greece and Serbia defends Greece, I get nothing and Italy gets Trieste. Hmm.
Notice, too, that Italy tried to support you into Greece... you could have moved to Serbia from Bul and to Greece from AEG and gotten both... what a coup that would have been!

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#273 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:29 am

DougJoe wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:46 am
Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:54 pm

The Fall '02 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Well, I didn't get Greece. The good news: Russia got Budapest, and supported me into Serbia. If I had gone to Serbia, I would have gotten it. Also, Italy didn't get Trieste, which is good, but now he's got 3 on Trieste for 1903. So Austria will have to choose where he wants to defend: Greece or Trieste. If I attack Serbia again in 1903, Italy gets Trieste for sure, and I get Serbia if Russia supports me again. If I attack Greece, and Serbia defends Trieste, that's a bigger win: I get Greece and Italy gets nothing. On the other hand, if I attack Greece and Serbia defends Greece, I get nothing and Italy gets Trieste. Hmm.
Notice, too, that Italy tried to support you into Greece... you could have moved to Serbia from Bul and to Greece from AEG and gotten both... what a coup that would have been!
You're right about Italy. I totally missed that. It's an excellent sign. It also makes my decision on Spring '03 orders very straightforward: Try both of the supported moves. If either Italy or Russia repeats the support, that will be great. If both do, I'm in fat city. So, AEG-->GRE, BUL-->SER, CON-->BUL, BLA-->CON. And the results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

A double fail ... Italy tried to support my previous move, BUL-->GRE. Russia unnecessarily supported himself into Galicia. Ah well. For the Autumn, it will be back to BUL-->GRE, CON-->BUL, each with support. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Haha, another fail. Russia tried supporting me into Serbia again. I didn't move there, but it wouldn't have worked even if I had. Austria cut the support with VIE-->BUD. After spending the first 5 turns doing nothing but trying to kill Austria, Italy is now suddenly Austria's best friend. Time to reconsider the situation before moving again.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#274 Post by DougJoe » Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:34 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:29 am

You're right about Italy. I totally missed that. It's an excellent sign. It also makes my decision on Spring '03 orders very straightforward: Try both of the supported moves. If either Italy or Russia repeats the support, that will be great. If both do, I'm in fat city. So, AEG-->GRE, BUL-->SER, CON-->BUL, BLA-->CON. And the results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

A double fail ... Italy tried to support my previous move, BUL-->GRE. Russia unnecessarily supported himself into Galicia. Ah well. For the Autumn, it will be back to BUL-->GRE, CON-->BUL, each with support. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Haha, another fail. Russia tried supporting me into Serbia again. I didn't move there, but it wouldn't have worked even if I had. Austria cut the support with VIE-->BUD. After spending the first 5 turns doing nothing but trying to kill Austria, Italy is now suddenly Austria's best friend. Time to reconsider the situation before moving again.
That's tough. Italy's build of a fleet is unsettling. What are you thinking at this point?

In my game, I got into Holland in the spring, but Germany didn't go for Kiel so he just retreated there (I was hoping he would move to Kiel so his army would be forced to be destroyed).
Italy did move to TYS like expected and completely blew apart Turkey - so he'll (Italy) be getting builds this year. He also moved Pie-Tyo this turn, which he can't seem to make up his mind on.

As usual, I'm in a world where I wish I had just one more unit. More later.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#275 Post by Trigfea63 » Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:17 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:34 pm
That's tough. Italy's build of a fleet is unsettling. What are you thinking at this point?
I've tentatively entered BUL-->GRE supported by AEG, CON-->BUL, and BLA-->CON. I'm thinking there's a decent chance Austria uses Serbia against Russia and Italy moves ION-->EAS. Those together would open up Greece for capture. I'm also a bit torn, because if Italy does move ION-->EAS, it would be useful to order AEG-->EAS to block. And/or CON-->SMY, BLA-->CON to ensure the BLA army gets into the sphere of action against Italy. Presumably Austria's bot-brain is focused on defense and he won't attack me right now. However, if I don't hit Greece or defend BUL (AEG support-hold BUL), I will lose BUL to any Austrian attack from SER+GRE. I still have a day and a half to debate it, I guess.
DougJoe wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:34 pm
In my game, I got into Holland in the spring, but Germany didn't go for Kiel so he just retreated there (I was hoping he would move to Kiel so his army would be forced to be destroyed).
Italy did move to TYS like expected and completely blew apart Turkey - so he'll (Italy) be getting builds this year. He also moved Pie-Tyo this turn, which he can't seem to make up his mind on.

As usual, I'm in a world where I wish I had just one more unit. More later.
Germany seems to have a slight positional edge. He could hold the current position (KIE S RUH, MUN S RUH, HEL S DEN). Or he could force a capture of Holland (HEL-->HOL supported by KIE, RUH-->BEL, DEN-->NTH). Or he could do something else altogether (KIE-->HOL with support?). It seems like you've got a guessing game, too. It would be nice if Italy moved to TYR, BOH and GAL this turn, wouldn't it? :-D

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#276 Post by DougJoe » Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:27 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:17 pm
DougJoe wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:34 pm
That's tough. Italy's build of a fleet is unsettling. What are you thinking at this point?
I've tentatively entered BUL-->GRE supported by AEG, CON-->BUL, and BLA-->CON. I'm thinking there's a decent chance Austria uses Serbia against Russia and Italy moves ION-->EAS. Those together would open up Greece for capture. I'm also a bit torn, because if Italy does move ION-->EAS, it would be useful to order AEG-->EAS to block. And/or CON-->SMY, BLA-->CON to ensure the BLA army gets into the sphere of action against Italy. Presumably Austria's bot-brain is focused on defense and he won't attack me right now. However, if I don't hit Greece or defend BUL (AEG support-hold BUL), I will lose BUL to any Austrian attack from SER+GRE. I still have a day and a half to debate it, I guess.
DougJoe wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:34 pm
In my game, I got into Holland in the spring, but Germany didn't go for Kiel so he just retreated there (I was hoping he would move to Kiel so his army would be forced to be destroyed).
Italy did move to TYS like expected and completely blew apart Turkey - so he'll (Italy) be getting builds this year. He also moved Pie-Tyo this turn, which he can't seem to make up his mind on.

As usual, I'm in a world where I wish I had just one more unit. More later.
Germany seems to have a slight positional edge. He could hold the current position (KIE S RUH, MUN S RUH, HEL S DEN). Or he could force a capture of Holland (HEL-->HOL supported by KIE, RUH-->BEL, DEN-->NTH). Or he could do something else altogether (KIE-->HOL with support?). It seems like you've got a guessing game, too. It would be nice if Italy moved to TYR, BOH and GAL this turn, wouldn't it? :-D
In your game, I'd still be tempted to forgo an attack on Greece to try to get the Black Sea fleet out into the Med, but that's just me.

In my game, I hadn't even realized the guaranteed attack on Holland from Heligo. In any case, I actually would like to "lock up" the north, if possible, because I want to free up ENC to go south... and I think to do that I need armies in Ruhr and Burgundy. Germany has been trying to bust into the North Sea for a while now, I think he's still going to do that. I wouldn't expect him to move HEL into Hol (I can't explain why, but it's just not a move I think the bot makes). I think it's far more likely that he moves Kie-Hol with support from Ruh and maybe HEL with Ber backfilling Kie.

As far as the Mediterranean goes, I really *don't* want to move to WMS and GoL, but I think I'm going to.

So I'm going to play:
NTH-HEL
ENC & NWS S Lon-NTH
Spa-WMS, Mar-GoL,
Bel & Hol S Bur-Ruh
Par-Bur

Even if I lose Holland, if I get into Ruhr I should be okay on the defensive side to be able to free up ENC. Maybe not, we'll see.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#277 Post by DougJoe » Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:51 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:27 pm

In my game, I hadn't even realized the guaranteed attack on Holland from Heligo. In any case, I actually would like to "lock up" the north, if possible, because I want to free up ENC to go south... and I think to do that I need armies in Ruhr and Burgundy. Germany has been trying to bust into the North Sea for a while now, I think he's still going to do that. I wouldn't expect him to move HEL into Hol (I can't explain why, but it's just not a move I think the bot makes). I think it's far more likely that he moves Kie-Hol with support from Ruh and maybe HEL with Ber backfilling Kie.

As far as the Mediterranean goes, I really *don't* want to move to WMS and GoL, but I think I'm going to.

So I'm going to play:
NTH-HEL
ENC & NWS S Lon-NTH
Spa-WMS, Mar-GoL,
Bel & Hol S Bur-Ruh
Par-Bur

Even if I lose Holland, if I get into Ruhr I should be okay on the defensive side to be able to free up ENC. Maybe not, we'll see.
I didn't get Ruhr, but I didn't lose Holland, either, Germany tried to take Holland from Kiel and I cut both supports. I'm not sure that moving to WMS and GoL was a good thing, as Italy ended up +3 for the year... and built two fleets. Gotta figure out how to deal with *that*. I really may be forced to move ENC to MAO this turn and try to figure out some wizardry in the north to stay competitive up there... but I don't know.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#278 Post by Trigfea63 » Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:11 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:51 pm
I didn't get Ruhr, but I didn't lose Holland, either, Germany tried to take Holland from Kiel and I cut both supports. I'm not sure that moving to WMS and GoL was a good thing, as Italy ended up +3 for the year... and built two fleets. Gotta figure out how to deal with *that*. I really may be forced to move ENC to MAO this turn and try to figure out some wizardry in the north to stay competitive up there... but I don't know.
I'm not sure moving to WMS and GoL was necessarily a bad thing either. The lesser of two evils maybe. Italy was going to get three builds regardless. With the third fleet you could probably hold off Italy in the Med, and with good guesses also hold off Germany in the north. Still, you have a lot to be worried about: Italy moving north against Germany, and Germany (being a bot) failing to adjust to that reality; the Italian army Venice moving to Piedmont. Italy is basically a 13-SC Turkey now, but with the ability to build new units in much more useful places.
DougJoe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:27 pm
In your game, I'd still be tempted to forgo an attack on Greece to try to get the Black Sea fleet out into the Med, but that's just me.
Yeah, I've come around to see it that way, too. Good advice. I've changed the orders to AEG-->EAS, CON-->SMY, BLA-->CON. BUL has nothing to do and will support-hold RUM. Time to ready up ...

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

More later.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#279 Post by Trigfea63 » Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:47 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:11 pm
DougJoe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:27 pm
In your game, I'd still be tempted to forgo an attack on Greece to try to get the Black Sea fleet out into the Med, but that's just me.
Yeah, I've come around to see it that way, too. Good advice. I've changed the orders to AEG-->EAS, CON-->SMY, BLA-->CON. BUL has nothing to do and will support-hold RUM. Time to ready up ...

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

More later.
That worked out quite well. My AEG-->EAS order blocked two Italian fleets from advancing. Had I stayed with the original orders, all of my moves would have failed and Italy would be in ION and EAS. I'm glad I changed those up. (I may be stubborn, but eventually, I do learn the lesson ... ;) )

Observations for Autumn '04: Italy not only ordered to EAS and ION, he also ordered F ADR-->ALB. This appears to set him up for an attack on Greece: ALB-->GRE supported by ION (or vice versa) and TRI-->SER. I don't want Italy capturing Greece. To thwart Italy, BUL will support-hold GRE. With the other units, I have a couple of options. One is: AEG-->EAS, CON-->AEG, SMY-->CON. If I do that, and it works, my units will be exactly where I want them. And there's a decent chance it will work: if Italy makes the attack on Greece, for example. On the other hand, if Italy orders ION-->EAS again, none of my units move anywhere (although I do block Italy from EAS again). Another possibility is: CON-->SMY, SMY-->ANK, ensuring some progress. It then takes one more turn to get the units all in position. For the Aegean fleet, AEG-->EAS blocks the potential ION-->EAS but leaves AEG vacant, while AEG support-hold BUL leaves EAS vacant. And is support-holding BUL really necessary?

In the north, Russia's done a good job keeping Germany at bay. And now, Russia's Baltic Sea fleet could sail into Denmark unopposed. (England's North Sea fleet will be occupied fighting France.) From Denmark and Norway, and with a build and a German removal, Russia could very well gain the upper hand in that contest. I am curious to see whether the Russian bot-brain can figure that out. He ostensibly has four German SCs he might go after from the Baltic Sea. I think most human players would recognize that Denmark is the best choice of the four.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#280 Post by DougJoe » Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:24 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:47 am

That worked out quite well. My AEG-->EAS order blocked two Italian fleets from advancing. Had I stayed with the original orders, all of my moves would have failed and Italy would be in ION and EAS. I'm glad I changed those up. (I may be stubborn, but eventually, I do learn the lesson ... ;) )
There's no right or wrong here. :-)
I think that having to write out one's thoughts helps clarify them - I'm a software developer by trade and I've puzzled through many a bug by simply describing to someone else what the code in question is trying to do...
Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:47 am
Observations for Autumn '04: Italy not only ordered to EAS and ION, he also ordered F ADR-->ALB. This appears to set him up for an attack on Greece: ALB-->GRE supported by ION (or vice versa) and TRI-->SER. I don't want Italy capturing Greece. To thwart Italy, BUL will support-hold GRE. With the other units, I have a couple of options. One is: AEG-->EAS, CON-->AEG, SMY-->CON. If I do that, and it works, my units will be exactly where I want them. And there's a decent chance it will work: if Italy makes the attack on Greece, for example. On the other hand, if Italy orders ION-->EAS again, none of my units move anywhere (although I do block Italy from EAS again). Another possibility is: CON-->SMY, SMY-->ANK, ensuring some progress. It then takes one more turn to get the units all in position. For the Aegean fleet, AEG-->EAS blocks the potential ION-->EAS but leaves AEG vacant, while AEG support-hold BUL leaves EAS vacant. And is support-holding BUL really necessary?

In the north, Russia's done a good job keeping Germany at bay. And now, Russia's Baltic Sea fleet could sail into Denmark unopposed. (England's North Sea fleet will be occupied fighting France.) From Denmark and Norway, and with a build and a German removal, Russia could very well gain the upper hand in that contest. I am curious to see whether the Russian bot-brain can figure that out. He ostensibly has four German SCs he might go after from the Baltic Sea. I think most human players would recognize that Denmark is the best choice of the four.
I like the idea of support holding Greece, although I'm not sure that's what Italy is after at the moment.

One other option, if you're willing to risk letting Italy into EMS, is AEG C Smy-Con, Con-Smy. Not sure right now which of the three options I like best, although I'd probably lean towards AEG->EMS, Smy-Ank, Con-Smy.

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