Austria vs Bots

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Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#421 Post by Trigfea63 » Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:07 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 5:09 am
If so, then perhaps I don't need to let England into GoL. I'm pretty sure England will order WES support-hold TUN. Thus, GoL-->MAR, TYS-->GoL, ION-->TYS, and ADR-->ION would seem to cover the bases. I would expect to bounce England at GoL, which is just fine (if I don't bounce Germany at MAR). If my fleets all advance, that's not bad either.
It's time to ready up these orders. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=439208

Success! Marseilles has turned Turkish yellow. (In case anyone else pays attention to these things, I have found 249 Red, 249 Blue, 200 Green on the MS-Excel custom colors chart to be a pretty good approximation of Turkish yellow.) Lots of combinations to consider for Spr '17. Before that, I get a build, and Germany has a removal.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#422 Post by Trigfea63 » Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:13 am

DougJoe wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 2:13 am
,,,and Turkey got Rome and *beautifully* stabbed the Russian (when I was commenting on the Turkish position in my last post, I was thinking that if I was Turkey, I'd be thinking about stabbing the Russian).

So England +1, Germany -1, Italy -1, Russia -3, Turkey +4 (!). Now I have to figure out which unit to pull.
Hoo boy. Turkey +4, now at 13 SCs. Russia -3. And England still attacking France. Hmm, let me guess how this one will end ...

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#423 Post by Scmoo472 » Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:46 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:07 am
Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 5:09 am
If so, then perhaps I don't need to let England into GoL. I'm pretty sure England will order WES support-hold TUN. Thus, GoL-->MAR, TYS-->GoL, ION-->TYS, and ADR-->ION would seem to cover the bases. I would expect to bounce England at GoL, which is just fine (if I don't bounce Germany at MAR). If my fleets all advance, that's not bad either.
It's time to ready up these orders. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=439208

Success! Marseilles has turned Turkish yellow. (In case anyone else pays attention to these things, I have found 249 Red, 249 Blue, 200 Green on the MS-Excel custom colors chart to be a pretty good approximation of Turkish yellow.) Lots of combinations to consider for Spr '17. Before that, I get a build, and Germany has a removal.
Excellent! You've made it.. into the line? Now for the fun part! Breaking through the wall! I'll take a closer look when I wake up. Its been a long day, but just from a glance, you've got yourself a chance to get through now, seemingly odd that Germany didn't cover the open center, rather unfortunate if you ask me, but you've got a great move coming up to really open it up now.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#424 Post by Trigfea63 » Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:57 pm

Scmoo472 wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:46 am
Excellent! You've made it.. into the line? Now for the fun part! Breaking through the wall! I'll take a closer look when I wake up. Its been a long day, but just from a glance, you've got yourself a chance to get through now, seemingly odd that Germany didn't cover the open center, rather unfortunate if you ask me, but you've got a great move coming up to really open it up now.
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=439208

It seems to me I want to get into GoL, so that I have threats against multiple English fleet positions. I don't expect England and Germany to cooperate to kick me out of Marseilles, so I can leave that undefended for 1 turn at least. Thus, TYS-->GoL, ION-->TYS, ADR-->ION. Or TUS-->GoL with 2 supports, ADR support-hold VEN, APU-->ROM (and then to Tuscany). I considered leaving ION open, building another fleet in Smyrna, and moving SMY-->AEG. Then next turn AEG-->ION covers, with support from Adriatic if necessary. But the 6th fleet seems unnecessary. Bot-England probably won't attack Ionian from Tunis without support.

As far as supports, Marseilles support TYS-->GoL, and Tuscany support ... ? Also TYS-->GoL to ensure that advance? Or perhaps ION-->TYS to ensure England doesn't enter TYS? I guess it depends what I think bot-England will do with WES.

I also have a build coming. If I do the alternative moveset, TUS-->GoL etc., an army build is best. CON-->BUL, then to Greece, then convoy into Apulia. If I do TYS-->GoL etc., it's less obvious what to build.

Hopefully England won't order MAO-->POR, NTH-->ENG (and then to MAO). If he gets the fleets to MAO and POR (and assuming he holds the defensive line properly, a big assumption with the bots), then my fleets are stalemated and I need an army breakthrough in France. If he fails to occupy Portugal, he can't completely stalemate me if I'm in MAR-GoL-TYS-ION. Eventually I will guess right and break through.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#425 Post by Scmoo472 » Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:38 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:57 pm
Scmoo472 wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:46 am
Excellent! You've made it.. into the line? Now for the fun part! Breaking through the wall! I'll take a closer look when I wake up. Its been a long day, but just from a glance, you've got yourself a chance to get through now, seemingly odd that Germany didn't cover the open center, rather unfortunate if you ask me, but you've got a great move coming up to really open it up now.
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=439208

It seems to me I want to get into GoL, so that I have threats against multiple English fleet positions. I don't expect England and Germany to cooperate to kick me out of Marseilles, so I can leave that undefended for 1 turn at least. Thus, TYS-->GoL, ION-->TYS, ADR-->ION. Or TUS-->GoL with 2 supports, ADR support-hold VEN, APU-->ROM (and then to Tuscany). I considered leaving ION open, building another fleet in Smyrna, and moving SMY-->AEG. Then next turn AEG-->ION covers, with support from Adriatic if necessary. But the 6th fleet seems unnecessary. Bot-England probably won't attack Ionian from Tunis without support.

As far as supports, Marseilles support TYS-->GoL, and Tuscany support ... ? Also TYS-->GoL to ensure that advance? Or perhaps ION-->TYS to ensure England doesn't enter TYS? I guess it depends what I think bot-England will do with WES.

I also have a build coming. If I do the alternative moveset, TUS-->GoL etc., an army build is best. CON-->BUL, then to Greece, then convoy into Apulia. If I do TYS-->GoL etc., it's less obvious what to build.

Hopefully England won't order MAO-->POR, NTH-->ENG (and then to MAO). If he gets the fleets to MAO and POR (and assuming he holds the defensive line properly, a big assumption with the bots), then my fleets are stalemated and I need an army breakthrough in France. If he fails to occupy Portugal, he can't completely stalemate me if I'm in MAR-GoL-TYS-ION. Eventually I will guess right and break through.
For your build, I think you have to go army here. Ideally you will want to use it to move to Albania, but you can save a turn by moving Rumania that way, and using the new army as a filler for the position. You will need armies to break up through France, (preferable to have 3 or 4), also that with 5 fleets in the Mediterranean, you are pretty much at maximum efficiency.

For Spring, I think the optimal setup is to plan how you're going to get an army through to Marseilles. Ideally it would be through Piedmont, but if you take Gulf of Lyons with the fleet in Tyrrhenian, there is no way to reasonably get your current fleet in Marseilles out of the way without a lucky hit on Spain (if North Sea moves, that door shuts completely), and you would lose the convoy capability of the Adriatic, as well as the support for Venice. So how I would set it up, would be as follows -
Spring
Mars S Tus - GoL
Tyrr S Tus - GoL
Ven - Tus
Apu - Ven
Adr S Apu - Ven
Ion SHold - Tyrr
Con - Rum via Convoy
BS Convoy Con - Rum
Rum - Serb
Sev S Con - Rum
Arm SHold Sev

As for Rumania vs Constantinople for the convoy, the difference is in the utility you gain from Albania. Albania can be convoyed by either Adriatic Sea or Ionian Sea (Ionian is your hold on the Tyrrhenian Sea mind you). And expecting to remove Piedmont means Adriatic will no longer be forced to hold/support an action at Venice, and will then be open to convoying your army from the Balkans to Italy. (Also that if Germany, using its AI magic, was somehow able to deduce you would be moving Rumania, you will have Serbia covered, can take a loss without really disrupting yourself, and if you wanted to play extra safe, Constantinople - Bulgaria is still acceptable as you can have a force of 4 moving back in, but will delay your third army for the French Liberation.

Apologies for the late response, my initial draft was written, but I found a flaw in my own plan, and had to hit the drawing board again... :eyeroll:

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#426 Post by Scmoo472 » Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:52 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:57 pm
Hopefully England won't order MAO-->POR, NTH-->ENG (and then to MAO). If he gets the fleets to MAO and POR (and assuming he holds the defensive line properly, a big assumption with the bots), then my fleets are stalemated and I need an army breakthrough in France. If he fails to occupy Portugal, he can't completely stalemate me if I'm in MAR-GoL-TYS-ION. Eventually I will guess right and break through.
This is both true, and also falls into the same spot as Tunis. Spain is another trap. By attempting to force Spain, you will absolutely ensure that Portugal will have a fleet in it. Mind you, that if you get Spain, Tunis will also be free. So thats 2 centers, but with MAO/Spain/Portugal taken, WM/Tunis/North Africa will all be forced destructions. So thats 3 destructions - 2 centers. It only takes 3 units to stop your assault on the MAO. Portugal - MAO - NAO or EC or Irish Sea. You will be handing him yet another stalemate position, except one that is completely unbreakable. And F-Lvp is only one move from locking you out for good. Whereas, lets say you are able to get an army to Gascony, now you have pressure on Brest, and (for a gamblers assumption, NS has not moved), MAO now has to cover that center, and thats when you can force Tunis, as you'll trade one center, for one unit, but also open up a retreat path for WM, where the support (Brest) can be broken by an army, rather than impervious in the sea.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#427 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Oct 29, 2022 2:48 pm

Sorry for the slow play, I've been busy irl. I built the army in CON and, miraculously, Germany removed its army in Piedmont.

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

8-) We'll have to rethink Spring moves ... everything just got a bit easier.

In the Balkans, I'm nervous ordering RUM--> SER, CON-->RUM. I take the point about Albania, but I really don't want to spook Russia. Germany has been quietly support-holding TYR, BOH, GAL for several turns. Turkish armies mobilizing on Russia's rear flank could cause him to swap around his support-hold orders. Or worse.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#428 Post by Scmoo472 » Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:35 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 2:48 pm
Sorry for the slow play, I've been busy irl. I built the army in CON and, miraculously, Germany removed its army in Piedmont.

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

8-) We'll have to rethink Spring moves ... everything just got a bit easier.

In the Balkans, I'm nervous ordering RUM--> SER, CON-->RUM. I take the point about Albania, but I really don't want to spook Russia. Germany has been quietly support-holding TYR, BOH, GAL for several turns. Turkish armies mobilizing on Russia's rear flank could cause him to swap around his support-hold orders. Or worse.
Well, I didn't see that coming. That makes it much easier. Now you don't have to do the fancy stuff anymore, and its straight forward providing that Germany doesn't attempt moving to Piedmont. I get the hesitation with the armies, but now that Piedmont has vacated itself, the rush on the third army isn't as high anymore, so Con - Bul - Ser - Alb is viable again.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#429 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:04 pm

Scmoo472 wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:35 pm
Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 2:48 pm
Sorry for the slow play, I've been busy irl. I built the army in CON and, miraculously, Germany removed its army in Piedmont.

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

8-) We'll have to rethink Spring moves ... everything just got a bit easier.

In the Balkans, I'm nervous ordering RUM--> SER, CON-->RUM. I take the point about Albania, but I really don't want to spook Russia. Germany has been quietly support-holding TYR, BOH, GAL for several turns. Turkish armies mobilizing on Russia's rear flank could cause him to swap around his support-hold orders. Or worse.
Well, I didn't see that coming. That makes it much easier. Now you don't have to do the fancy stuff anymore, and its straight forward providing that Germany doesn't attempt moving to Piedmont. I get the hesitation with the armies, but now that Piedmont has vacated itself, the rush on the third army isn't as high anymore, so Con - Bul - Ser - Alb is viable again.
I think it's safe to assume Germany won't move to Piedmont, and England won't move to Marseilles from Spain. I'm tempted now to just pull the Marseilles fleet back to GoL, with 2 supports, to clear the path for the armies while also securing GoL. Add VEN-->PIE, APU-->VEN, and start the CON army on its journey. With the Tuscany fleet staying in Tuscany, it can support-hold TYS, freeing up the Ionian fleet to convoy. The GoL fleet is vulnerable to a combined WES-Spain attack so there is perhaps a guessing game there. I would send the CON army CON-->BUL-->GRE-->Italy or, if necessary, CON-->BUL-->GRE-->ALB-->Italy. Also, heh heh, once that army reaches Greece, the long convoy GRE-->MAR becomes a possibility ...

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#430 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:14 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:13 am
DougJoe wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 2:13 am
,,,and Turkey got Rome and *beautifully* stabbed the Russian (when I was commenting on the Turkish position in my last post, I was thinking that if I was Turkey, I'd be thinking about stabbing the Russian).

So England +1, Germany -1, Italy -1, Russia -3, Turkey +4 (!). Now I have to figure out which unit to pull.
Hoo boy. Turkey +4, now at 13 SCs. Russia -3. And England still attacking France. Hmm, let me guess how this one will end ...
The last Autumn moves and builds/removals seem to make England your #1 enemy now. Russia pulled Finland and has to deal with Turkey. England moved to Baltic (who else can he possibly attack from there??) and built a new army London, seemingly to move to Holland. Strategically, attacking England makes the most sense, too. England's attacks on you, Russia, France are only helping Turkey to solo, while Russia can help slow Turkey's advance. Maybe if you move units away from Russia (or even just support-hold), turning to face England, the Russian bot-programming will reciprocate and turn its attention to the Turk.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#431 Post by Scmoo472 » Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:22 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:14 pm
Trigfea63 wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:13 am
DougJoe wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 2:13 am
,,,and Turkey got Rome and *beautifully* stabbed the Russian (when I was commenting on the Turkish position in my last post, I was thinking that if I was Turkey, I'd be thinking about stabbing the Russian).

So England +1, Germany -1, Italy -1, Russia -3, Turkey +4 (!). Now I have to figure out which unit to pull.
Hoo boy. Turkey +4, now at 13 SCs. Russia -3. And England still attacking France. Hmm, let me guess how this one will end ...
The last Autumn moves and builds/removals seem to make England your #1 enemy now. Russia pulled Finland and has to deal with Turkey. England moved to Baltic (who else can he possibly attack from there??) and built a new army London, seemingly to move to Holland. Strategically, attacking England makes the most sense, too. England's attacks on you, Russia, France are only helping Turkey to solo, while Russia can help slow Turkey's advance. Maybe if you move units away from Russia (or even just support-hold), turning to face England, the Russian bot-programming will reciprocate and turn its attention to the Turk.
Having just seen the recent progression, this is a for sure Turkish Solo. The Bots have a tendency to sometimes play like a newer player in a gunboat when someone is going to solo.. They show no regard for the ability to draw, but rather that people become weaker when they turn to face the imminent threat. France has no fleet capability to stop the Turkish navy, and Russia will slowly fall. T gets Marseilles - Naples - Moscow - Warsaw, and thats a wrap. Now its all about survival, though a bonus will be that England should displace your fleet, so if you can hold onto your centers for one more turn, that destruction would allow you to build a new army in the mainland. (If Turkey gets to Moscow before England can take St.P, you might find that he supports you to hold anyway.)

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#432 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun Oct 30, 2022 5:40 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:04 pm
I think it's safe to assume Germany won't move to Piedmont, and England won't move to Marseilles from Spain. I'm tempted now to just pull the Marseilles fleet back to GoL, with 2 supports, to clear the path for the armies while also securing GoL. Add VEN-->PIE, APU-->VEN, and start the CON army on its journey. With the Tuscany fleet staying in Tuscany, it can support-hold TYS, freeing up the Ionian fleet to convoy. The GoL fleet is vulnerable to a combined WES-Spain attack so there is perhaps a guessing game there. I would send the CON army CON-->BUL-->GRE-->Italy or, if necessary, CON-->BUL-->GRE-->ALB-->Italy. Also, heh heh, once that army reaches Greece, the long convoy GRE-->MAR becomes a possibility ...
It's time to ready up these orders. I almost switched around the support orders at the last minute, to have Tuscany support VEN-->PIE, and Marseilles move to GoL with only 1 support. My thinking was, this alternative probably results in a bounce at GoL, but keeps Marseilles safer in the event Germany moves to Piedmont. In the Autumn I would then move Marseilles back to GoL with 2 supports, and PIE-->MAR, etc. But I decided the extra margin of safety in Marseilles is unnecessary. Germany has support-held in Tyrolia for several turns now, and just removed his Piedmont army. It's very unlikely he would now change his mind and try to block me out of Piedmont. Also, I remembered, it's never a good idea to change orders that have been well-thought-out, without a compelling reason -- a reason you didn't consider originally. So the above orders stand. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameI ... Type=large

Excellent! As anticipated, Tyrolia held, and my armies advanced. England went after GoL with a force of 2, and my Marseilles fleet got to GoL with its 2 supports. (And yes, it would have bounced with only 1 support.) In other good news: England's North Sea fleet and Germany's Munich army both stayed put. So we're in good shape for Autumn '17. More on that in another day or so.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#433 Post by DougJoe » Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:43 am

Scmoo472 wrote:
Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:22 pm
Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:14 pm
The last Autumn moves and builds/removals seem to make England your #1 enemy now. Russia pulled Finland and has to deal with Turkey. England moved to Baltic (who else can he possibly attack from there??) and built a new army London, seemingly to move to Holland. Strategically, attacking England makes the most sense, too. England's attacks on you, Russia, France are only helping Turkey to solo, while Russia can help slow Turkey's advance. Maybe if you move units away from Russia (or even just support-hold), turning to face England, the Russian bot-programming will reciprocate and turn its attention to the Turk.
Having just seen the recent progression, this is a for sure Turkish Solo. The Bots have a tendency to sometimes play like a newer player in a gunboat when someone is going to solo.. They show no regard for the ability to draw, but rather that people become weaker when they turn to face the imminent threat. France has no fleet capability to stop the Turkish navy, and Russia will slowly fall. T gets Marseilles - Naples - Moscow - Warsaw, and thats a wrap. Now its all about survival, though a bonus will be that England should displace your fleet, so if you can hold onto your centers for one more turn, that destruction would allow you to build a new army in the mainland. (If Turkey gets to Moscow before England can take St.P, you might find that he supports you to hold anyway.)
Yeah, I think it's going to be a Turkish solo, too.

In the spring of 09, I was really torn between going back towards the homeland, moving towards Warsaw, or trying to do what I could to stop Turkey. I ended up going back to the west. I thought maybe I'd try to get Holland back, but England and I bounced in Kiel (which was weird because I thought he'd go for Denmark).

In the fall of 09, England did take Denmark, and I could have gotten Sweden but I guessed wrong. France got Lvp but lost Mar, England got Den but lost Lvp, Turkey got Mar and Sev but lost Rum... and, of course, I have to figure out what to remove. Leaning towards the fleet in GOB.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#434 Post by DougJoe » Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:27 am

DougJoe wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:43 am
Yeah, I think it's going to be a Turkish solo, too.

In the spring of 09, I was really torn between going back towards the homeland, moving towards Warsaw, or trying to do what I could to stop Turkey. I ended up going back to the west. I thought maybe I'd try to get Holland back, but England and I bounced in Kiel (which was weird because I thought he'd go for Denmark).

In the fall of 09, England did take Denmark, and I could have gotten Sweden but I guessed wrong. France got Lvp but lost Mar, England got Den but lost Lvp, Turkey got Mar and Sev but lost Rum... and, of course, I have to figure out what to remove. Leaning towards the fleet in GOB.
I missed that in 1909, Italy got kicked out of Naples, but snuck back into Venice, so he's hanging on by a thread as well...

In Spring 1910, I decided there wasn't much else to do other than to try to keep Turkey out of Munich and to cover Kiel. I also tried to support Russia back into Moscow. I did keep Turkey out of Munich, and I did get back into Kiel... and because the Turk decided to go for Munich, Italy snuck into Trieste! England forced his way into Hol, and France followed into Belgium. England also kicked France out of Lvp.

In Fall 1910, I decided to take a chance and push Kiel to Denmark (because why not at this point?) along with another defense of Munich and trying to help Russia with the St.P unit (which didn't really help). I did get into Denmark (yay) and, interestingly enough, I got into Munich because Turkey tried to take Ven from Tyo. Italy bounced him in Ven, and gets to build a unit! Rome is open, as potentially is Naples. Maybe Italy can harass Turkey from inside just enough? I doubt it, but you never know...

...so for this turn, right now I just have Den S Kie S Den, Ruh S Mun, StP S Mos. The latter is probably futile as England is probably going to tap it again (unless he uses Nwy to defend Swe). I'm also wondering if I should play really aggressive and use Mun to tap Tyo in an effort to help Italy somehow... or maybe Kie S Ruh-Mun, Mun-Sil to keep Boh-Sil out? Again, Turkey only needs three more (and he should take Por this year) so it's probably a moot point. The more I think about it, the more I like Kie S Ruh-Mun, Mun-Sil...

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#435 Post by DougJoe » Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:54 am

DougJoe wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:27 am
...so for this turn, right now I just have Den S Kie S Den, Ruh S Mun, StP S Mos. The latter is probably futile as England is probably going to tap it again (unless he uses Nwy to defend Swe). I'm also wondering if I should play really aggressive and use Mun to tap Tyo in an effort to help Italy somehow... or maybe Kie S Ruh-Mun, Mun-Sil to keep Boh-Sil out? Again, Turkey only needs three more (and he should take Por this year) so it's probably a moot point. The more I think about it, the more I like Kie S Ruh-Mun, Mun-Sil...
I did block the Turks out of Silesia, but in the end, it didn't matter. Italy lost Tri in the spring and didn't retreat to ADR, so Venice was doomed. In the fall, Turkey took Ven, War, and Mos (along with being in Tri and Por in the spring) for 19.

Lots of little things that I could have done differently in that game that added up:
Maybe supporting E or F into Belgium early on instead of taking it for myself.
Moving back out of Bur in S04 instead of trying for Bel again - I should not have been as worried about France's fleet there.
Correctly anticipating the Russian attack in S06 - I have seen Russia bot sometimes just sit and defend instead of continuing west, but still...
Covering Swe in F06 instead of guaranteeing Pru-Ber.

Well, anyway, on to Italy or Russia for the next in this round of 7 games... I played Russia more recently, so I guess Italy next... https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=455477

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#436 Post by Trigfea63 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:33 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sun Oct 30, 2022 5:40 pm
https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameI ... Type=large

Excellent! As anticipated, Tyrolia held, and my armies advanced. England went after GoL with a force of 2, and my Marseilles fleet got to GoL with its 2 supports. (And yes, it would have bounced with only 1 support.) In other good news: England's North Sea fleet and Germany's Munich army both stayed put. So we're in good shape for Autumn '17. More on that in another day or so.
My thoughts for Autumn: Advance the armies, PIE-->MAR and VEN-->PIE. Also, ADR-->VEN to cover just in case. BUL-->GRE to set up for a convoy through Ionian. My thought is to convoy to Naples in the Spring, and then to Marseilles next Autumn through TYS and GoL. It's a lot quicker than convoying to Apulia and having to advance the army through Venice and Piedmont. The risk of England exploiting the defensive weakness by selecting the exact winning attack on GoL or TYS seems very low. These bots don't play those kinds of moves too often, and England seems set on support-holding Tunis from N. Africa which limits its possible attacks. With the fleets, I'll hold the current position for a couple more turns. It looks like England won't properly defend WES, so when the time comes that's probably the soft spot.

The upcoming Autumn moves seem straightforward enough. I'll go ahead and ready up. Here goes (commentary later):

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#437 Post by Trigfea63 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:37 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:54 am
DougJoe wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:27 am
...so for this turn, right now I just have Den S Kie S Den, Ruh S Mun, StP S Mos. The latter is probably futile as England is probably going to tap it again (unless he uses Nwy to defend Swe). I'm also wondering if I should play really aggressive and use Mun to tap Tyo in an effort to help Italy somehow... or maybe Kie S Ruh-Mun, Mun-Sil to keep Boh-Sil out? Again, Turkey only needs three more (and he should take Por this year) so it's probably a moot point. The more I think about it, the more I like Kie S Ruh-Mun, Mun-Sil...
I did block the Turks out of Silesia, but in the end, it didn't matter. Italy lost Tri in the spring and didn't retreat to ADR, so Venice was doomed. In the fall, Turkey took Ven, War, and Mos (along with being in Tri and Por in the spring) for 19.

Lots of little things that I could have done differently in that game that added up:
Maybe supporting E or F into Belgium early on instead of taking it for myself.
Moving back out of Bur in S04 instead of trying for Bel again - I should not have been as worried about France's fleet there.
Correctly anticipating the Russian attack in S06 - I have seen Russia bot sometimes just sit and defend instead of continuing west, but still...
Covering Swe in F06 instead of guaranteeing Pru-Ber.

Well, anyway, on to Italy or Russia for the next in this round of 7 games... I played Russia more recently, so I guess Italy next... https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=455477
Too bad about the Germany game. I think you correctly called the Turkish solo back in 1903 or so ...

It will be fun to see how you handle Italy. We've not had an Italy game in this thread yet, and I know you have an impressive win percentage as Italy against the bots. I've got the game set up to spectate.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#438 Post by DougJoe » Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:01 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:33 pm
Too bad about the Germany game. I think you correctly called the Turkish solo back in 1903 or so ...
No worries. A lot of people on the boards have said that Germany is easy vs. the bots, but Germany is 5th on my list. I must not be getting something.
Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:37 pm
It will be fun to see how you handle Italy. We've not had an Italy game in this thread yet, and I know you have an impressive win percentage as Italy against the bots. I've got the game set up to spectate.
Well, I played through 1901. Pretty standard so far, looks like E wants an E/R (the same moves he played in my Germany game!), Austria didn't trust me at first, but it turned out ok for him, and Turkey's moving *hard* on Russia (who didn't get a build in 1901!).

This is a perfect example of the I/T conundrum with the bots. Because Turkey is pushing so hard against Russia, I'm tempted to switch gears and go after Austria. But Turkey will probably get Rum and Sev, which would put him at 6... and he might be to strong to deal with, even then (and, again, bot Turkey actually not attacking Italy is super-rare IME)... I'd need to blitz Austria amazingly fast to keep up/stay ahead, and I don't think I could manage that (because Austria would be strong enough to ignore Russia and focus on holding me back instead).

So, as usual, Turkey is still the target.

Also, your position in your game is looking nice.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#439 Post by Trigfea63 » Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:55 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:01 pm
No worries. A lot of people on the boards have said that Germany is easy vs. the bots, but Germany is 5th on my list. I must not be getting something.
I went back and looked at your Germany game, to see if I could find anything I might have done differently. I didn't see anything of any importance. I probably would have taken Belgium in Spring '02. But you took it in Autumn '02 anyway, and I can't see that taking it in Spring would have made any difference. I probably would have bounced Russia in Sweden in Autumn '01, as you did.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it just seems like you were unlucky. In particular, Russia's attempted fake-out in Norway/Sweden in Autumn '02 and England's support-hold of the French fleet in Belgium in Autumn '03 were both pretty unexpected, and both slowed you down. Add to that Italy's attack on Austria, and you have enough elements for a tough game for Germany.

Thinking more about the last point, bot-Italy attacks bot-Austria fairly often in these games, and it's generally unfavorable for Germany. (Mostly, it powers up Russia too much.) I wonder if there is a different strategy for Germany that might work better in this situation? Nothing comes to mind immediately, though ...
DougJoe wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:01 pm
Well, I played through 1901. Pretty standard so far, looks like E wants an E/R (the same moves he played in my Germany game!), Austria didn't trust me at first, but it turned out ok for him, and Turkey's moving *hard* on Russia (who didn't get a build in 1901!).
I want to make an observation on Turkey's Spring '01 opening. Turkey played ANK-->CON, SMY-->ARM, CON-->BUL. I've played many games of Diplomacy, and I had never seen this Turkish opening until a few months ago, when someone played it against me in a human gunboat game. (I was Russia.) The opening immediately puts Russia in a terrible position. Russia gets into Black Sea, but can't get Rumania without losing Sevastapol. It's also a hugely high-risk opening for Turkey. If Russia covers SEV from Ukraine and correctly guesses to move Black Sea to CON, or Ankara (whichever one Turkey leaves open), it's kind of game over for Turkey in 1901.

Have you seen bot-Turkey play this opening before?

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#440 Post by DougJoe » Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:27 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:55 pm
DougJoe wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:01 pm
No worries. A lot of people on the boards have said that Germany is easy vs. the bots, but Germany is 5th on my list. I must not be getting something.
I went back and looked at your Germany game, to see if I could find anything I might have done differently. I didn't see anything of any importance. I probably would have taken Belgium in Spring '02. But you took it in Autumn '02 anyway, and I can't see that taking it in Spring would have made any difference. I probably would have bounced Russia in Sweden in Autumn '01, as you did.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it just seems like you were unlucky. In particular, Russia's attempted fake-out in Norway/Sweden in Autumn '02 and England's support-hold of the French fleet in Belgium in Autumn '03 were both pretty unexpected, and both slowed you down. Add to that Italy's attack on Austria, and you have enough elements for a tough game for Germany.

Thinking more about the last point, bot-Italy attacks bot-Austria fairly often in these games, and it's generally unfavorable for Germany. (Mostly, it powers up Russia too much.) I wonder if there is a different strategy for Germany that might work better in this situation? Nothing comes to mind immediately, though ...
Agreed, there were very unexpected things that happened, but maybe that was my failure to read the board correctly early on? It's really hard to know how/if the bots would have reacted to, say, support into Belgium or something like that. Maybe with the fleet move into Nwy (as opposed to the army) I should have been more worried about England at the beginning and leaned towards non-aggression with France (instead of trying to punch into Burgundy). Or maybe supporting Russia into Sweden? It's hard to say. I have had games with Germany where the R/G works out to some degree.

As far as A/I goes, the only thing that I think I might have been able to do was move Mun-Tyo in S02, which would have kept Italy at bay (and Mun didn't do anything more useful that turn). I think I should have realized that Italy would try for Rom-Ven-Tyo that turn.
Trigfea63 wrote:
Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:55 pm
DougJoe wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:01 pm
Well, I played through 1901. Pretty standard so far, looks like E wants an E/R (the same moves he played in my Germany game!), Austria didn't trust me at first, but it turned out ok for him, and Turkey's moving *hard* on Russia (who didn't get a build in 1901!).
I want to make an observation on Turkey's Spring '01 opening. Turkey played ANK-->CON, SMY-->ARM, CON-->BUL. I've played many games of Diplomacy, and I had never seen this Turkish opening until a few months ago, when someone played it against me in a human gunboat game. (I was Russia.) The opening immediately puts Russia in a terrible position. Russia gets into Black Sea, but can't get Rumania without losing Sevastapol. It's also a hugely high-risk opening for Turkey. If Russia covers SEV from Ukraine and correctly guesses to move Black Sea to CON, or Ankara (whichever one Turkey leaves open), it's kind of game over for Turkey in 1901.

Have you seen bot-Turkey play this opening before?
Yes, when I happened I actually checked the stats that I'd posted earlier in this thread - of the 300-ish Turkish bot openings, it was played 4 times. I don't know which games it was in off the top of my head, nor how those games played out. I wanted to look, but haven't had the time.

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