Austria vs Bots

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DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#441 Post by DougJoe » Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:34 am

Also, I have played several turns in my game since my last post... recap thoughts:
F1902:
Seriously consider stabbing Austria already via Tri and Gre. Decide against it, will give more time to see where the alliance goes even though Austria's going to have the power. Will try for Smy, but won't be upset if it doesn't work.
Results: Glad I didn't stab. Didn't get Smy. No one running away with the north yet.

S1903: Now I convoy to Syr as it's guaranteed and I'll continue to trust Austria and hold in Apulia to potentially convoy next turn. I get into Smy and my trust is rewarded as Austria moves Tri-Alb, so now both Ven and Tri are empty (which is nice). Was not actually really watching the north, to be honest.

F1903: I think that Turkey will play Con S Smy and that Austria won't tap Con, so I convoy from Apu-Syr and move Syr-Arm. Again, I have to admit I was sort of going on autopilot here and was not paying particular attention to the north, although in retrospect Germany with 4 fleets in the north is looking strong. I also totally missed France's F Mar build because I was more focused on what Austria was doing, and the build of army Vie was ok with me.

S1904: My moves are pretty easy: two supports for Syr-Smy which, unless Austria does something completely unexpected, should get me Smy, and a follow up from ION-AEG. Results are as expected and it's nice to see Austria support ION-AEG. This is where I finally notice the southern French fleet, but I'm not worried about it now. Looks like the north is sort of balanced for now. Turkey's army in Smy is destroyed due to BLA-Ank.t

F1904: Again, pretty straightforward. Smy is completely safe, so EAS can do something else if it needs to. I decide it might be a good idea to go to ION, just in case France decides to move to WES to try for Tunis. I use AEG to tap Con and use Smy to support Arm-Ank. After I submitted the orders, I realized that Turkey could have played Con-Smy to stop me, but he didn't do that and played the much more conservative Con S Ank, Ank S Con. So I got into Ank. The north still looks sort of locked. Austria got Warsaw and gets a build, and I get two. I should have no problem getting Con next turn, and, honestly, it's probably time to go for the Austrian after that, mostly likely using Con to tap Bul and get into Greece (at least). That's another two builds which should be at least able to keep pace with Austria, since he should get Mos/Sev this year.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#442 Post by DougJoe » Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:28 am

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:34 am
F1904: Again, pretty straightforward. Smy is completely safe, so EAS can do something else if it needs to. I decide it might be a good idea to go to ION, just in case France decides to move to WES to try for Tunis. I use AEG to tap Con and use Smy to support Arm-Ank. After I submitted the orders, I realized that Turkey could have played Con-Smy to stop me, but he didn't do that and played the much more conservative Con S Ank, Ank S Con. So I got into Ank. The north still looks sort of locked. Austria got Warsaw and gets a build, and I get two. I should have no problem getting Con next turn, and, honestly, it's probably time to go for the Austrian after that, mostly likely using Con to tap Bul and get into Greece (at least). That's another two builds which should be at least able to keep pace with Austria, since he should get Mos/Sev this year.
W1904: Meant to build A Nap, A Rom (no build in Ven to avoid immediately freaking out Austria). Somehow mess up and build A Ven, A Rom. Oh well.

S1905: Rom-Apu for convoy next turn, AEG & Ank S Smy-Con. Would be nice to have a fleet in BLA for later but decide on keeping AEG where it is. I can always block things at Arm. Venice holds. Results are mostly as expected - Austria takes Mos/Sev but also moved into Serbia... but Russia moves to Boh, which is kind of nice.

F1905: Serbia can either defend Tri or Bul or Gre. I can move Ven-Tri and then either attack Gre or Bul. I like the idea of the army being in Greece rather than Con-Bul,Ank-Con or AEG-Bul (sc), so I go for Greece as I had originally planned...

...and I get *both*, which, with Con, makes three builds for me... Austria does retreat to Alb, so it's not as simple as I thought it was going to be at first when I saw the moves, but we can deal with it... I build three armies (not sure what fleets do for me right now) and, as a bonus, Russia kept Boh instead of F Kie, so hopefully he will keep attacking Vie (and keep Austria out).

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#443 Post by Trigfea63 » Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:26 am

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:28 am
DougJoe wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:34 am
F1904: Again, pretty straightforward. Smy is completely safe, so EAS can do something else if it needs to. I decide it might be a good idea to go to ION, just in case France decides to move to WES to try for Tunis. I use AEG to tap Con and use Smy to support Arm-Ank. After I submitted the orders, I realized that Turkey could have played Con-Smy to stop me, but he didn't do that and played the much more conservative Con S Ank, Ank S Con. So I got into Ank. The north still looks sort of locked. Austria got Warsaw and gets a build, and I get two. I should have no problem getting Con next turn, and, honestly, it's probably time to go for the Austrian after that, mostly likely using Con to tap Bul and get into Greece (at least). That's another two builds which should be at least able to keep pace with Austria, since he should get Mos/Sev this year.
W1904: Meant to build A Nap, A Rom (no build in Ven to avoid immediately freaking out Austria). Somehow mess up and build A Ven, A Rom. Oh well.

S1905: Rom-Apu for convoy next turn, AEG & Ank S Smy-Con. Would be nice to have a fleet in BLA for later but decide on keeping AEG where it is. I can always block things at Arm. Venice holds. Results are mostly as expected - Austria takes Mos/Sev but also moved into Serbia... but Russia moves to Boh, which is kind of nice.

F1905: Serbia can either defend Tri or Bul or Gre. I can move Ven-Tri and then either attack Gre or Bul. I like the idea of the army being in Greece rather than Con-Bul,Ank-Con or AEG-Bul (sc), so I go for Greece as I had originally planned...

...and I get *both*, which, with Con, makes three builds for me... Austria does retreat to Alb, so it's not as simple as I thought it was going to be at first when I saw the moves, but we can deal with it... I build three armies (not sure what fleets do for me right now) and, as a bonus, Russia kept Boh instead of F Kie, so hopefully he will keep attacking Vie (and keep Austria out).
Wow, I can see how you've been able to complete 300+ games. Once you start rolling, you don't mess around! It looks like this one can be put on the books as an Italian solo ...

In my game, https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large, I considered various alternatives: Attack WES? It's very tempting to destroy 2 English fleets and capture Tunis this year. Convoy Greece to Spain? Lots of possibilities. Ultimately I decided to stay the course. Keep pushing the armies into France before Germany and/or England wake up. I can execute the other attacks later. My only concern is that I'm a bit short on units. I could use another build. Hopefully Germany won't move to defend Paris and I'll capture it in the Autumn. If not, I'll have to consider the Tunis attack more seriously.

For this turn, I have entered MAR-->GAS, PIE-->MAR, and GRE-->APU by convoy. I decided to convoy to Apulia so that I can move that army into Venice in the Autumn. Otherwise Northern Italy will begin to look a bit thin defensively. I'd rather not give bot-Germany any ideas. It also gives that army a land route to France, so fleets can be used for other purposes if necessary.

The results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=439208

Very good. Germany did not move to defend Paris. I will claim it in the Autumn. I'm thinking my Autumn moves might be limited to GAS-->PAR, VEN-->ADR, and APU-->VEN. Everything else hold. I'll be interested to see if England moves to cover Brest from MAO.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#444 Post by DougJoe » Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:23 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:26 am
Wow, I can see how you've been able to complete 300+ games. Once you start rolling, you don't mess around! It looks like this one can be put on the books as an Italian solo ...
Yeah, it definitely was going well - not a lot of hard choices. I played a few more turns last night after I posted that update... a lot of these turns were played pretty quickly, if I saw something that looked good I went with it.

S1906: This was an interesting turn. I wasn't sure if Austria was going to go for Tri or Gre, but I really wanted to move Ven-Tyo and Rom-Ven, so I decided to leave Tri on its own, and go full on at Bul. I figured then I'd try to convoy over from Naples, and the worst that would happen is Tri would have to retreat, and it's likely that Bud might be open if Gal/Sil bounce in Vienna again.

...and I got into Bul and he went for Gre, so Tri is fine. Russia got Vie! I think I like that.

F1906: Defend everything, force my way into Greece. I decided not to go for Rum.

W1906: Build an Army, bound for Albania.

S1907: Defend Tri, convoy to Alb, block Arm, try for Rum. Nothing fancy. Everything worked. West/North is still not an issue.

F1907: Try for both Ser and Vie. Didn't think too deeply about it other than seeing a set of moves that would keep everything safe in the worst case. Got Ser.

W1907: Time to start thinking about going towards France. Build A Rom, F Nap which will head that way.

S1908: Try for both Bud and Vie. Rum is vulnerable, but if he takes it I will probably get into Arm, which is good. Move the fleets and Rom towards France. I do get Vie but lose Rum but can retreat to Gal, which is fine. Germany (which previously took War) is setup to take Mos, but I'm not worried about his army presence yet.

F1908: Gal back to Bud with two supports. Ser S Bul-Rum. Arm taps Sev to cut support even if it makes Mos vulnerable. Fleets and Tus continue towards France, Ven-Tyo-Boh as insurance defense. I get both Bud and Rum. Germany doesn't try for Mos.

W1908: Build fleet Rome and army Venice, both meant for France. Austria removes Mos and Sev, I should be able to get Sev.

Then, this morning l, I played 1909.

S1909: I think Germany won't really interfere, so I go for Sev, Mar, and Gal, and get into all three. I do forget to move Tri-Vie.
F1909: I try for Spa and Ukr and get both as well. That's three more, puts me at 17. At worst, I should be able to force Moscow in 1910.
Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:26 am
The results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=439208

Very good. Germany did not move to defend Paris. I will claim it in the Autumn. I'm thinking my Autumn moves might be limited to GAS-->PAR, VEN-->ADR, and APU-->VEN. Everything else hold. I'll be interested to see if England moves to cover Brest from MAO.
You have a lot of options now. I don't think trying to destroy WMS would be a bad thing, and if you were feeling really saucy you could convoy Apu to Mar.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#445 Post by Trigfea63 » Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:47 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:23 pm
F1909: I try for Spa and Ukr and get both as well. That's three more, puts me at 17. At worst, I should be able to force Moscow in 1910.
Yes, indeed, the map is looking very sea-green. Now that you've got Spain locked down, you could also try MAR-->BUR, PIE-->MAR and see what opportunities that creates.

In my game, I should probably just keep things moving along. It's likely a solo, no need to overthink.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#446 Post by DougJoe » Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:48 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:47 pm
DougJoe wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:23 pm
F1909: I try for Spa and Ukr and get both as well. That's three more, puts me at 17. At worst, I should be able to force Moscow in 1910.
Yes, indeed, the map is looking very sea-green. Now that you've got Spain locked down, you could also try MAR-->BUR, PIE-->MAR and see what opportunities that creates.

In my game, I should probably just keep things moving along. It's likely a solo, no need to overthink.
Yeah, I was planning on moving units West, but I don't think it will matter. I have my builds in, just waiting for the system to be up again to finish (no worries Mods!)

Waiting to see how yours goes as well - I think you are right in that you will probably solo as long as you don't do anything *too* silly.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#447 Post by Scmoo472 » Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:41 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:47 pm
DougJoe wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:23 pm
F1909: I try for Spa and Ukr and get both as well. That's three more, puts me at 17. At worst, I should be able to force Moscow in 1910.
Yes, indeed, the map is looking very sea-green. Now that you've got Spain locked down, you could also try MAR-->BUR, PIE-->MAR and see what opportunities that creates.

In my game, I should probably just keep things moving along. It's likely a solo, no need to overthink.
Some thoughts;

So looking at your position now, you've made some great progress. The two armies in France are a major game changer and getting that replacement for Venice is also critical. Now comes the biggest hurdle of Turkey, when in a Juggernaut-style position (All along the Med, with a single choke point in Piedmont), except you don't have your land bridge fully connected (Trieste). Getting armies to France. You have.. kind of one option, which is to connect Aegean Sea to Gulf of Lyons, which right now your potential connection fleet is a full year away. (Venice - Adriatic - Ionian) or (Black - Constantinople - Aegean), being that Black Sea is an essential part of your stalemate on Germany in the Balkan/Russian area, that is not an option currently, and would require using a build to make happen. (Army Con - Bul). Whereas, using Apulia - Venice, and Venice - Adriatic - Ionian becomes a possibility.

Theres more. So now to consider the France area. Paris is free, which is great because you're in desperate need for armies. Brest, Tunis, and Spain are all threatened, which means something will be available (Tunis is not one of them, but the threat means NA has a predictable move). Because of the proximity to Brest (English SC), Belgium (English SC), and Paris (Will be yours), there is a higher than likely chance that North Sea could get involved with convoying Norway, London, or even moving to the English Channel. Further out, you really want MAO to move to Brest, and hopefully keep it there provided you are sitting in Gascony or Paris. The ideal scenario is to then force a retreat from West Med, allowing you to force Tunis and North African destructions, as well as swipe Spain on the same year span. (Tunis in fall of 19XX), and NA and Spain in Spring of 19XX+1), Spain will in theory retreat to Portugal, which is not ideal, but due to the positioning of the fleets. NA gets destroyed, Spain can break Portugals support, an army can break Brest's support, and so long as NS has stayed out of it, MAO can be broken.

So as you are on an autumn turn, you could in play, attempt this immediately. Gas - Paris
Mar - Spain
GoL - WM
Tyrr S GoL - WM
Ion - Tun
Tus - GoL

The only move that would cancel it out is NA S WM H OR MAO S WM H.. which if the AI were to abandon Tunis, I would not only be shocked, but would be kicking the table for all the times I wish they would have done this for me, and if they don't cover Brest.. well then Paris has a move in Spring as well. :lol:

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#448 Post by DougJoe » Fri Nov 04, 2022 4:07 pm

Finished my Italy game. Took Par/War/Mos in 1910, no worries.

In review, this was a fairly stress-free Italian solo. I'm having a hard time coming up with anything super insightful to say about the game that I haven't already said... France didn't come my way at all and Turkey going after Russia at the start made the work of A/I much easier. I stabbed Austria and made some good tactical guesses after that, with the last Russian army really providing just enough to make things much less of a dogfight/guessing game than it could have been. My solo rate for Italy vs. bots is now at 29/52,(55.8%).

On to Russia, the last of this round of 7... https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=456386

(and we're into the Geomancer spells now for game names, if that means anything to anybody.)

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#449 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:28 am

[/quote]
DougJoe wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 4:07 pm
Finished my Italy game. Took Par/War/Mos in 1910, no worries.

In review, this was a fairly stress-free Italian solo. I'm having a hard time coming up with anything super insightful to say about the game that I haven't already said... France didn't come my way at all and Turkey going after Russia at the start made the work of A/I much easier. I stabbed Austria and made some good tactical guesses after that, with the last Russian army really providing just enough to make things much less of a dogfight/guessing game than it could have been. My solo rate for Italy vs. bots is now at 29/52,(55.8%).

On to Russia, the last of this round of 7... https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=456386

(and we're into the Geomancer spells now for game names, if that means anything to anybody.)
Congrats on another solo! I checked out your Russia game just started (link above). Nice move in Vienna in Spr '03: anticipating the Austrian bounce, giving Galicia a hostile support, and following Russia into Galicia. Very clever. A couple of those strong tactics can swing a game sometimes.

You both had some interesting ideas for my Turkey game. Unfortunately, I would need more time to think them through, and with the site not processing the last 2 days, I' e not been logging in, and now I'm at the deadline. I'm going to take the gift of Paris that Germany has offered, and stick with the other conservative moves I had entered a couple of days ago. I'll think through both of your ideas for the 1919 seasons. Here goes for Autumn '18 (and commentary later):

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=439208

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#450 Post by DougJoe » Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:52 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:28 am
Congrats on another solo! I checked out your Russia game just started (link above). Nice move in Vienna in Spr '03: anticipating the Austrian bounce, giving Galicia a hostile support, and following Russia into Galicia. Very clever. A couple of those strong tactics can swing a game sometimes.

You both had some interesting ideas for my Turkey game. Unfortunately, I would need more time to think them through, and with the site not processing the last 2 days, I' e not been logging in, and now I'm at the deadline. I'm going to take the gift of Paris that Germany has offered, and stick with the other conservative moves I had entered a couple of days ago. I'll think through both of your ideas for the 1919 seasons. Here goes for Autumn '18 (and commentary later):

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=439208
Thanks, I saw the self-bounce in F02 and thought I might be able to take advantage. I'll write up a recap sometime this weekend.

Nothing wrong with playing conservative in your game. Surprised (yet not) that army London is still in London. Curious to see what unit Germany removes...

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#451 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:08 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:52 am
Nothing wrong with playing conservative in your game. Surprised (yet not) that army London is still in London. Curious to see what unit Germany removes...
I built the army CON. Germany removed its fleet in Sweden -- not super helpful, unless that encourages England to take Sweden. I know, not likely ...
Scmoo472 wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:41 pm
Theres more. So now to consider the France area. Paris is free, which is great because you're in desperate need for armies. Brest, Tunis, and Spain are all threatened, which means something will be available (Tunis is not one of them, but the threat means NA has a predictable move). Because of the proximity to Brest (English SC), Belgium (English SC), and Paris (Will be yours), there is a higher than likely chance that North Sea could get involved with convoying Norway, London, or even moving to the English Channel. Further out, you really want MAO to move to Brest, and hopefully keep it there provided you are sitting in Gascony or Paris. The ideal scenario is to then force a retreat from West Med, allowing you to force Tunis and North African destructions, as well as swipe Spain on the same year span. (Tunis in fall of 19XX), and NA and Spain in Spring of 19XX+1), Spain will in theory retreat to Portugal, which is not ideal, but due to the positioning of the fleets. NA gets destroyed, Spain can break Portugals support, an army can break Brest's support, and so long as NS has stayed out of it, MAO can be broken.

So as you are on an autumn turn, you could in play, attempt this immediately. Gas - Paris
Mar - Spain
GoL - WM
Tyrr S GoL - WM
Ion - Tun
Tus - GoL

The only move that would cancel it out is NA S WM H OR MAO S WM H.. which if the AI were to abandon Tunis, I would not only be shocked, but would be kicking the table for all the times I wish they would have done this for me, and if they don't cover Brest.. well then Paris has a move in Spring as well. :lol:
I like these moves in the Med. I think they are still valid, 1 turn later. The army CON will advance toward the Grecian convoying platform. Other moves to round things out:

PAR Hold
VEN-->PIE
ADR-->VEN (to cover just in case)

Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

The moves all worked. England retreated to MAO. Germany got a little agitated and moved to Burgundy, as well as pulling Tyrolia back to Munich. That will make things more interesting in France, for sure.

My thoughts for Autumn: I could move into the vacated Tyrolia from Piedmont, but I think it's better to keep pushing the armies into France if I can:

MAR-->GAS supported by PAR
PIE-->MAR
GoL support PIE-->MAR? Or move to Spain, in case England tries to take back WES? I need to think about that one ...
WES-->NAf
TYS-->TUN supported by ION (positionally, I'd rather do it the other way, but I'll need ION for the convoy next Spring, I don't want to delay that even by 1 turn)

I'm open to comments or other possibilities as well. I'll hold off on entering these for a day or so.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#452 Post by DougJoe » Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:40 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:08 pm
Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

The moves all worked. England retreated to MAO. Germany got a little agitated and moved to Burgundy, as well as pulling Tyrolia back to Munich. That will make things more interesting in France, for sure.

My thoughts for Autumn: I could move into the vacated Tyrolia from Piedmont, but I think it's better to keep pushing the armies into France if I can:

MAR-->GAS supported by PAR
PIE-->MAR
GoL support PIE-->MAR? Or move to Spain, in case England tries to take back WES? I need to think about that one ...
WES-->NAf
TYS-->TUN supported by ION (positionally, I'd rather do it the other way, but I'll need ION for the convoy next Spring, I don't want to delay that even by 1 turn)

I'm open to comments or other possibilities as well. I'll hold off on entering these for a day or so.
Before I read your move list closely, I thought the same thing about tapping Spa with GoL. If the bot was going to even try to take WES back, I would bet it would be by moving MAO, not Spain. So tapping Spain might not be so bad. It's also not so obvious (to me) as to whether E or G should try to take back Mar, so I think the worst that happens is that you bounce there.

This might have been said already (and might be obvious) but I think that the strategic goal is MAO. I think the progression of Tun-Naf makes sense (rather than going for Spa, which you *could* do) as you will be destroying English fleets along the way, and (again, like I think Scmoo said) taking Spa will result into a retreat to Por, which you don't want... and, also, I think you want to keep focusing on English dots - having Germany stay strong (I think) keeps Russia honest and from doing anything stupid (like Serbia, for example).

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#453 Post by Scmoo472 » Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:39 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:40 pm
Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:08 pm
Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

The moves all worked. England retreated to MAO. Germany got a little agitated and moved to Burgundy, as well as pulling Tyrolia back to Munich. That will make things more interesting in France, for sure.

My thoughts for Autumn: I could move into the vacated Tyrolia from Piedmont, but I think it's better to keep pushing the armies into France if I can:

MAR-->GAS supported by PAR
PIE-->MAR
GoL support PIE-->MAR? Or move to Spain, in case England tries to take back WES? I need to think about that one ...
WES-->NAf
TYS-->TUN supported by ION (positionally, I'd rather do it the other way, but I'll need ION for the convoy next Spring, I don't want to delay that even by 1 turn)

I'm open to comments or other possibilities as well. I'll hold off on entering these for a day or so.
Before I read your move list closely, I thought the same thing about tapping Spa with GoL. If the bot was going to even try to take WES back, I would bet it would be by moving MAO, not Spain. So tapping Spain might not be so bad. It's also not so obvious (to me) as to whether E or G should try to take back Mar, so I think the worst that happens is that you bounce there.

This might have been said already (and might be obvious) but I think that the strategic goal is MAO. I think the progression of Tun-Naf makes sense (rather than going for Spa, which you *could* do) as you will be destroying English fleets along the way, and (again, like I think Scmoo said) taking Spa will result into a retreat to Por, which you don't want... and, also, I think you want to keep focusing on English dots - having Germany stay strong (I think) keeps Russia honest and from doing anything stupid (like Serbia, for example).
Good progression, and you are on track for the capture of Tunis and Spain with minimal "repercussions of builds".

With regards to tapping Spain, GoL hitting spain is favorable for three reasons. Firstly is that should England go rogue and use Spain to move to West Med, you take the center, and GoL will be left open for a retreat. Second, is that Marseilles being left open isn't entirely bad if he bounces your army in Piedmont, as you will have a multiple force entry in the Spring regardless, and the third army isn't going to really break anything open until MAO has been dealt with. And thirdly, on the off chance that Englands AI sees Bur - Mars, and supports with Spain, GoL still cuts this support, whereas Marseilles would not.

Looking at your fleet setup, I believe using Tyrr to take Tunis is the correct play, not only so that Ionian is available for a convoy, but also that on the off chance that England sacrifices Tunis to the gods, and takes West Med with it, (a situation where GoL does not get into Spain), you still have a retreat available, as a destruction for you is much more impactful once you've made it beyond Italy). As well as the opening in Spring to convoy directly to Venice. (Russia already has Serbia open, and with Germany not posing a threat on Venice,) Venice would be free this turn to return to the Adriatic in preparation to convoy in Spring, which would be a phase earlier than using a single fleet convoy.

This leads me to Paris. Considering Burgundy's options, Marseilles, Paris, or Picardy seem like the most likely moves. One army isn't a concern for you at this point, but if he attempts to bring Munich into Burgundy as well (Belgium is actually a saving grace in choking out those armies through to France), then two armies plus English fleets can make some headaches. In an effort to continue progression with the fleets, the land game becomes more of a diceroll, but based on positioning, you have the advantage in the sense of Germany only being able to provide two armies at present. So limiting his movement is more important than driving him back. While Paris supporting Mars - Gas is a good play to ensure you get it, I don't believe you lose anything if you don't take Gascony this year, whereas Germany moving to Picardy, and with the potential for Lon - Bel still there, thats much more threatening while you currently have no way to threaten from Tyrolia with actual force. Using Paris to hit Burgundy prevents Munich from getting involved, and also breaks a potential support to Marseilles (long shot) from Spain.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#454 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:22 pm

Great comments, thanks both. I largely agree with everything you both said. I had one question for each of you and would like to get your further thoughts before I finalize orders. This is mainly for my own learning, and for anyone else who might be reading this thread and wondering.
DougJoe wrote:
Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:40 pm
and, also, I think you want to keep focusing on English dots - having Germany stay strong (I think) keeps Russia honest and from doing anything stupid (like Serbia, for example).
I have wondered about how the bots evaluate alliances, friends, enemies. In general, my understanding is that the bots tend to be pretty "sticky" in terms of who they consider allies, and who they consider enemies. A bot will rarely stab you, if you don't provoke them first. Here, Germany attacked Russia continuously from 1905 to 1913. Then, he support-held his own units along the Russian border starting in 1914. In Autumn 1918, after 9 straight seasons of support-holding, he attacked Russia again. Whereas, I have been friendly with Russia the entire game. I would think (or I would hope, at least) if I could weaken Germany, Russia might join in the attack and advance on Munich-Berlin. This could be a second way to break through the stalemate line, if I can't pierce the English defenses and get into MAO: Pour enough armies into France to push a contingent of 3-4 armies at Munich/Belgium/Holland/Kiel from behind, and an army from Tyrolia, and/or the Ukraine/Galicia option if Germany pulls too many units away from that front. If Russia helped with that project, it would be too much for Germany to defend.
Scmoo472 wrote:
Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:39 pm
This leads me to Paris. Considering Burgundy's options, Marseilles, Paris, or Picardy seem like the most likely moves. One army isn't a concern for you at this point, but if he attempts to bring Munich into Burgundy as well (Belgium is actually a saving grace in choking out those armies through to France), then two armies plus English fleets can make some headaches. In an effort to continue progression with the fleets, the land game becomes more of a diceroll, but based on positioning, you have the advantage in the sense of Germany only being able to provide two armies at present. So limiting his movement is more important than driving him back. While Paris supporting Mars - Gas is a good play to ensure you get it, I don't believe you lose anything if you don't take Gascony this year, whereas Germany moving to Picardy, and with the potential for Lon - Bel still there, thats much more threatening while you currently have no way to threaten from Tyrolia with actual force. Using Paris to hit Burgundy prevents Munich from getting involved, and also breaks a potential support to Marseilles (long shot) from Spain.
I thought about PAR-->BUR. It does ensure only 1 German army makes it to the French theater this turn. But in the list of Burgundy's most likely moves, don't you think Gascony is a strong possibility as well? I would think BUR-->GAS or BUR-->MAR are most likely, that's what my moves are trying to solve for. It seems important to keep Germany out of Gascony, and there is the possibility (hard to say how likely) that England's fleet Brest supports BUR-->GAS. If Germany orders BUR-->GAS and England doesn't support it, my armies both advance while Germany's stagnate. BUR-->PIC is another possibility, and one that I didn't really consider. You are right, if that is Germany's move, PAR-->BUR is my strongest response: again, my armies both advance into French territory and Germany largely stagnates. I suppose it comes down to what we guess Germany is most likely to do, and how the various moves work in the correct-guess and incorrect-guess scenarios.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#455 Post by Scmoo472 » Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:28 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:22 pm
Great comments, thanks both. I largely agree with everything you both said. I had one question for each of you and would like to get your further thoughts before I finalize orders. This is mainly for my own learning, and for anyone else who might be reading this thread and wondering.
Scmoo472 wrote:
Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:39 pm
This leads me to Paris. Considering Burgundy's options, Marseilles, Paris, or Picardy seem like the most likely moves. One army isn't a concern for you at this point, but if he attempts to bring Munich into Burgundy as well (Belgium is actually a saving grace in choking out those armies through to France), then two armies plus English fleets can make some headaches. In an effort to continue progression with the fleets, the land game becomes more of a diceroll, but based on positioning, you have the advantage in the sense of Germany only being able to provide two armies at present. So limiting his movement is more important than driving him back. While Paris supporting Mars - Gas is a good play to ensure you get it, I don't believe you lose anything if you don't take Gascony this year, whereas Germany moving to Picardy, and with the potential for Lon - Bel still there, thats much more threatening while you currently have no way to threaten from Tyrolia with actual force. Using Paris to hit Burgundy prevents Munich from getting involved, and also breaks a potential support to Marseilles (long shot) from Spain.
I thought about PAR-->BUR. It does ensure only 1 German army makes it to the French theater this turn. But in the list of Burgundy's most likely moves, don't you think Gascony is a strong possibility as well? I would think BUR-->GAS or BUR-->MAR are most likely, that's what my moves are trying to solve for. It seems important to keep Germany out of Gascony, and there is the possibility (hard to say how likely) that England's fleet Brest supports BUR-->GAS. If Germany orders BUR-->GAS and England doesn't support it, my armies both advance while Germany's stagnate. BUR-->PIC is another possibility, and one that I didn't really consider. You are right, if that is Germany's move, PAR-->BUR is my strongest response: again, my armies both advance into French territory and Germany largely stagnates. I suppose it comes down to what we guess Germany is most likely to do, and how the various moves work in the correct-guess and incorrect-guess scenarios.
I am reconsidering this upon further evaluation. While I still like the potential of blocking German advance, Gascony has a higher value for you than it does for Germany (A-Gas and A- Mun are kind of non-factors in large part, which is why I was accepting it rather than A-Pic and A-Bur), but Gascony is also crucial for your setup into the Spain, NA, MAO maneuver you have to prepare for. Which is more crucial that you are able to use Paris to break Brest than to break a potential Gascony support. I think your planned moves will provide you the most benefit, and with Marseilles S Par - Bur, you still have the ability to break Brest from Gascony, so even A-Pic and A-Bur won't be that hard to deal with.

This is also all assuming NS - EC doesn't happen, because if it does, the entire game plan dies, as Port - EC - MAO locks you out for good. This also means that until you are able to potentially breach MAO, you can't take Brest either (forced retreat to EC). The good news is that Brest, Spain, and Tunis can all fall, and with those armies, the solo comes through Russia unfortunately.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#456 Post by DougJoe » Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:03 am

DougJoe wrote:
Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:52 am
Thanks, I saw the self-bounce in F02 and thought I might be able to take advantage. I'll write up a recap sometime this weekend.
Okay, here's the Russian recap up to and through the current turn (F03).

S01: I played a northern opening the last time I played Russia, so just for variety we go south this time, with StP-Fin, well, just because. War-Gal, Sev-BLA, Mos-Ukr.

S01 Results: France to Piemont? Huh. Otherwise, England's projecting my way, and Italy didn't go for Austria. Austria moved Vie-Tri, so I got into Gal. Turkey didn't go to Arm, which is good.

F01: Austria left Vie and Bud open. My guess is that Austria leaves Vie open, but I'm wasn't sure if it was worth taking it (maybe it was?) so I'll try for Bud anyway, along with Fin-Swe and Sev S Ukr-Rum.

F01 Results: Well, I was right about Austria leaving Vie open. I didn't get Swe. Around the rest of the board, England took Nwy with a fleet (not the army) and all three powers bounced in Bel. France tried for Venice and failed and only gets one build. Italy convoys to Tunis. A +1, E +1, F+1, G+2, I+1, R+1, T+1. I think about building in StP but ultimately decide on army Warsaw.

S02: I think here I was thinking that there wasn't much point in trying for Budapest so I decided to slide Gal to Boh and try to backfill Gal with War (and use Sev to protect Rumania and try for Finland again.)

S02 Results: Well, I got into Boh, but lost Gal. Germany still blocked me out of Finland. England convoyed to Norway (yuck) and moved into SKA. Italy is heading west to deal with France. At least Turkey didn't attack - he did move Bul-Ser, so maybe I can do something with that next turn.

F02: Here I thought quite a bit about supporting Germany or England into Sweden
but ultimately decided I was too worried about the army in Norway and decided to move back to StP to cover it. I'll take a shot at Vie with Boh, move War-Gal again and use Rum to support Bul-Ser.

F02 Results: Moved back to StP, none of my units moved otherwise. Austria self-bounced in Vie and used Bud to cut Rum's support. France played an interesting move with Pie-Tyo. England attacked Germany and took Sweden, but Germany got Belgium to compensate. France backed out of Ruhr and blocked England from taking Brest. (England attacking both France and Germany!) Germany destroys his unit in Den. I kind of wish now I'd supported BAL-Swe.

W02: No builds for me. E build F Lon, France builds F Mar, Germany builds F Kie.

S03: As previously noted, I think that Austria will again play Tri-Vie & Gal-Vie, and I realized I could use Boh to support Gal-Vie and the follow in behind with War-Gal. Army Norway still makes me nervous so StP stays home and Rum still supports Bul-Ser.

S03 Results: The hostile support works. Turkey tries for Greece, so Rum doesn't matter (and Bud taps it again). Otherwise, France gets into Venice. England doesn't attack Brest again but forces NTH and moves Nwy-Swe.

F03: Ok, I think that I'm going to start with Stp-Fin. Then, what do try in the south? I think that Tri will support hold either Vie or Bud, but I'm not sure which one. I guess, for this turn, I will play the "safe" Rum S Gal-Bud, Boh-Vie and see what happens. Maybe I can then get a read on what Austria might do next turn...

F03 Results: Well, I guessed wrong. My position is no worse, but it looks like there's an E/F going on, as England supported France into Belgium. Germany and Italy are both in serious trouble.

W03: France built another fleet for the south. England built army Edi (again, yuck).

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#457 Post by Trigfea63 » Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:51 pm

I'm spectating this one ... I'll just say, you're doing as well as you can. Russia is hard.

It's time to ready up orders in my Turkey game. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Pretty good overall. Tunis is captured. England did not move to EC, although, now that I've got armies in Paris and Gascony, he might have to do that. Germany ordered BUR-->PAR, we would have been fine with either moveset ;) The only complication is, Germany ordered Munich back to Tyrolia.

Time to mull over builds and Spring moves. For build phase, I am +1, no one else has a build or a removal (England's Tunis fleet was destroyed).

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#458 Post by DougJoe » Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:21 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:51 pm
I'm spectating this one ... I'll just say, you're doing as well as you can. Russia is hard.

It's time to ready up orders in my Turkey game. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Pretty good overall. Tunis is captured. England did not move to EC, although, now that I've got armies in Paris and Gascony, he might have to do that. Germany ordered BUR-->PAR, we would have been fine with either moveset ;) The only complication is, Germany ordered Munich back to Tyrolia.

Time to mull over builds and Spring moves. For build phase, I am +1, no one else has a build or a removal (England's Tunis fleet was destroyed).
Nice!

Ok, so I played through several more turns last night, and we're up to Autumn of 1907 and it's not looking good. More recap:

S04: At this point I realized that I can probably get away with using Rum to tap Ser to help Turkey against Austria and I probably need to do so to power up Turkey to be able to deal with France in the south. Otherwise, it's Fin-Swe, Boh S Gal. (Gal should have supported Sev-Rum, but, well, this has not been my best game.)

S04 Results: Turkey took Gre (good) but Germany lost Holland and Italy lost GOL (and for some reason Italy didn't retreat to Tus, which seems like a reasonable thing to do).

F04: I think Turkey will tap Ser, so I try for Bud this turn, Boh-Vie, Rum S Gal-Bud. I still push on Sweden.

F04 Results: I got Budapest. Italy lost Rome (he had to choose between defending Rome and Naples and picked Naples). Germany lost Kiel. Turkey finally moves out of BLA.

W04: I consider building in the north but go with army War. England builds two armies (again, yuck), France build army Mar, Italy rebuilds F Nap (not that it will matter). Turkey builds army Smy (I think I know what he's doing but I would probably have preferred a fleet build?).

S05: Well, I still only have a few units so there's really not much to think about. Still Fin-Swe, Bud S Boh-Vie, War-Gal. I wish that fleet in Sev was an army.

S05 Results: Here comes England. Crap. Turkey got Serbia, so that's good. Italy and Germany will probably both be dead by the end of the year.

F05: I'll take Vie, and cover StP.

F05 Results: Got Vienna. England played something unexpected where he bounced in Fin, so I'm now back in StP. Germany is out, Italy is out. Turkey gets bounced out of ION by Italy which is unfortunate.

W05: I think a lot about building Army Mos but build army War again, mostly because I know that, in the end, I can't hold StP against England. England builds another fleet in Edi, France builds 3, fleets in Bre/Mar and army Par.

S06: I decide to help Turkey into Tri and move into Silesia and Finland, while pulling Rum back toward the north. Silesia seems like a logical place to be, although I don't know exactly what I'm going to do with it? Wish I had another army instead of the fleet in the south.

S06 Results: Turkey takes Tri (which France interestingly enough tries to defend but Austria moved it to try to take Venice). The English fleets are coming, we bounce in Finland. France and Turkey bounce in ION and each put another unit on it.

F06: I decide to take a shot at Munich and to try to help Turkey advance units if needed. Ukr-Mos.

F06 Results: StP is now surrounded, I will lose it next year. Nothing happens with Mun - I probably should have tried to push into Tyo instead. France and Turkey bounce in ION again. Austria is eliminated.

W06: Turkey builds fleet Con. I get it, but how is he going to get it to where it needs to be without losing ION?

S07: I decide now to pull Budapest back to the north and to go for Tyo.

S07 Results: Lost StP, as expected, retreat to Lvn. England tried to convoy Den-Pru but moved Den-Kie. I did push France out of Tyo... but Turkey didn't move Tri-Ven (in fact, Tri just held). Turkey also tried to shuffle units around to get a fourth unit on ION but self-bounced with Gre-Alb and Ser-Alb... so France got the Ionian.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#459 Post by Trigfea63 » Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:14 pm

Yeah, E-F are looking pretty strong. If this were a human game, and I were playing Russia, I would be looking for a stalemate line Turkey and I could defend. It's harder to take that approach in a bot game, since you know bot-Turkey won't be thinking that way. In any event, I don't see how Turkey holds off France in this one. It looks like a French solo, unfortunately.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#460 Post by DougJoe » Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:19 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:14 pm
Yeah, E-F are looking pretty strong. If this were a human game, and I were playing Russia, I would be looking for a stalemate line Turkey and I could defend. It's harder to take that approach in a bot game, since you know bot-Turkey won't be thinking that way. In any event, I don't see how Turkey holds off France in this one. It looks like a French solo, unfortunately.
F07: I made the wrong choice with Boh (potentially backfilling Sil instead of tapping Mun) and lost Tyo. Maybe Lvn-Pru would have been better as well?

W07: England builds army Lon, France fleet Mar.

I was thinking about stalemate lines as well, I'm not sure there is one that holds off both E/F, especially with Italy already having fallen to France.
France is now at 11, England at 10. England's (probably) going to get Mos and War - not sure what else after that. France can eventually force Trieste but where he goes after that, I'm not sure. Getting into any of the Balkans will take forever. I'll probably go out before Turkey does, but we'll see. Hoping that there's a stab here to mix things up a little.

I have to make this as hard as possible for E/F, need to think about how to do that.

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