Austria vs Bots

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Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#321 Post by Trigfea63 » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:20 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:31 pm
DougJoe wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:21 pm
This is a pretty good synopsis of what's going on. I've seen bot Russia move F Sev->Rum to cover it when the need is dire, I'm not sure he's at that point yet, especially with Turkey hanging out in BLA. Given that, I think it's just a guessing game between Bud/Vie. I *think*(??) I would rather lose Vie than Bud, so I will have Ser S Bud, and then move Bul back to Gre. If Turkey uses all three units to take Bul, no big. If he moves AEG->Gre and uses the other two to take Bul, then I get to rebuild it.
https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Ok, I did not expect Gal to support a move, but he did. Russia then used Rum to help Turkey take Bul back so I didn't lose Vie or Bud... I did get bounced in Gre, though so that fleet was destroyed. (I can considered Ser S Bul-Gre but was more worried about Russia, guess I got that wrong). Italy sailed happily into Smy and gets 3 builds this turn. Russia does lose one - guessing he'll take of StP or Sev, not sure. Turkey doesn't get a build (which is good). I get two, one of which is army Vienna - not sure if I want to built a fleet in Tri or another Army... dealing with Greece this year is going to be a pain. Not sure if I lose it where I'm going to be able to make it up.
You did well to come out +1 there. It could have gone much worse. Dealing with Greece is going to be a pain, for sure. It seems like you'll need Italy's help to recapture it. Which, maybe he's willing to give? Could you "preview" SER-->GRE for him in the Spring, and also order TRI-->ALB? Then, assuming he moves to Ionian, at least he'll know which move to support in the Autumn. Hmm, now that I wrote it out, I don't know how great an idea that is. It's tying up at least two units for a "maybe" plan.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#322 Post by Trigfea63 » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:40 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:33 pm
Trigfea63 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:09 am

Alright, I'm ready to roll with BUL-->SER, CON-->BUL, EAS support-hold ION, AEG-->CON for Spr '07. Here goes. Commentary later:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large
An interesting result!

Italy moved away from Russia and you, looks like he wants to try to get involved in the carve up of France.
Germany didn't go for Sweden himself, but double supported Norway in... which didn't work because England didn't move Nor-Swe but instead used Nwy to try to support into NTH... and Nwy then was dislodged and had to retreat, and England did so to Germany's StP. Germany also moved his armies south and is setup to take Sev and is also in Paris...
...but England now has two armies on the continent, where are they going? Is this a prelude to an attack on Germany? What are those armies going to do otherwise, just sit there (although that wouldn't surprise me)?

You have the potential of getting 3 builds this year... crazy.
Totally crazy. After being penned into my little corner for the first 6 years.

Overall, these are obviously great results. However, Germany is getting quite strong. He's probably going to be +2 or +3 this year. He'll gain Paris, SEV, and probably Sweden. He might lose StP. That puts him at 10, maybe 11 SCs. I wondered too about those 2 English armies (and perhaps no. 3 waiting to be convoyed from Yorkshire?). You know what would be really incredible? I don't even want to say it out loud for fear of jinxing it ...

For Autumn '07, clearly I hold in Serbia and move to Black Sea. Do I go for Rumania? With support? What about Tunis? (It's funny, I was looking at the map for a long time before I noticed I have a walk into Tunis.) I guess, why *not* snag Tunis? ION-->TUN, EAS-->ION keeps ION protected. It could weaken Italy though, if Italy goes -1. He might remove, say, army Piedmont. Would Germany then steamroll through the center of the map? Even if Italy captures Marseilles, he'll need an army to sit there, probably. So either way taking Tunis could empower Germany. On the other hand, if Italy did get a build, would he build an army? And use it to defend against Germany? And, weakening Italy does take some small amount of pressure off of England and maybe (hopefully) England acts as a counterweight to Germany. Or is that just rationalizing my way to taking the SC I want? Yeah, I think I capture Tunis and let the chips fall.

As for Rumania, if Germany dislodges SEV and moves on VIE-BUD while I capture the vacant RUM, the Russian bot-brain should still perceive Germany as its main enemy. Looks like I'm going for Rumania as well. It’s very possible Russia quickly loses everything except the 3 Austrian centers, then support-holds for as long as he can survive.

I've put these orders in as tentative for now. I'll let them marinate a little.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#323 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:25 am

I guess it's time to hit Ready. I can't think of anything better to do than the above moves. Here goes.

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Yep, that went about as expected, i.e., an excellent season! I got 3 builds. Russia is actively resisting Germany, and got into Tyrolia. Germany took SEV, and Russia disbanded the dislodged army, rather than retreating to Armenia. Russia also disbanded his dislodged units from Norway and Sweden. Italy took Marseilles and is even. England stayed in StP, so he is +1 and Germany is only +2. England also moved BEL-->BUR and has the German army in Paris surrounded. It's possible he's aiming for Marseilles, though. France and Austria were eliminated. (Technically, France still has to remove his Gascony army in the Winter adjustments.)

My initial thought on builds: A ANK (to move to Armenia), F SMY (to put out to the western seas). Not sure about CON. Probably an army, given the German threat. But England is on his way to the Med, too. The best approach is probably to think through my Spring '08 moves first, then decide on builds. I'll do that in a separate post. It's getting late.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#324 Post by DougJoe » Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:44 pm

Ank and Smy both make sense... I think you need an army in Con to push to Bul in the spring so it can help with Rum in the fall. I could see something like arm & BLA S rum-sev, ser s bul-rum.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#325 Post by Trigfea63 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:11 am

DougJoe wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:44 pm
Ank and Smy both make sense... I think you need an army in Con to push to Bul in the spring so it can help with Rum in the fall. I could see something like arm & BLA S rum-sev, ser s bul-rum.
Agreed. It is done.

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Germany built 2 armies, now has 7 to bring to bear on Central/Eastern Europe. England built another fleet. For Spr '08, some of the moves are clear:

ANK-->ARM
CON-->BUL
SMY-->AEG
EMS-->ION

Tunis either supports EMS-->ION, or moves to TYS.

There are a few possibilities with RUM, SER, and BLA: One is RUM-->SEV supported by BLA, SER-->RUM. Or SER support-hold RUM, RUM support the Russian A BUD-->GAL, and BLA support A ANK-->ARM. SER-->TRI is also a possiblity, to bounce Italy. But if Italy doesn't move to Trieste, do I really want to end up there? I think not. My preference is for Russia to hold onto the 3 Austrian centers for a while. His 3 armies are doing good work against Germany, and from a forward position that I can't replicate with Turkish builds. Capturing the Russian centers to build new Turkish units on the Anatolian plain weakens our position considerably in the short-term.

I guess I'm leaning toward RUM support Russian A BUD-->GAL. I think Russia will order BUD-->GAL again. (Bot tunnel vision is reasonably predicatable.) I also expect Germany will order UKR support-hold SEV and WAR-->MOS, to set up 2 supports for SEV in the Autumn. Getting Russia into Galicia is maybe the best I can do. Italy potentially moving to Trieste is the wildcard here ...

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#326 Post by DougJoe » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:44 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:11 am
Agreed. It is done.

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Germany built 2 armies, now has 7 to bring to bear on Central/Eastern Europe. England built another fleet. For Spr '08, some of the moves are clear:

ANK-->ARM
CON-->BUL
SMY-->AEG
EMS-->ION

Tunis either supports EMS-->ION, or moves to TYS.

There are a few possibilities with RUM, SER, and BLA: One is RUM-->SEV supported by BLA, SER-->RUM. Or SER support-hold RUM, RUM support the Russian A BUD-->GAL, and BLA support A ANK-->ARM. SER-->TRI is also a possiblity, to bounce Italy. But if Italy doesn't move to Trieste, do I really want to end up there? I think not. My preference is for Russia to hold onto the 3 Austrian centers for a while. His 3 armies are doing good work against Germany, and from a forward position that I can't replicate with Turkish builds. Capturing the Russian centers to build new Turkish units on the Anatolian plain weakens our position considerably in the short-term.

I guess I'm leaning toward RUM support Russian A BUD-->GAL. I think Russia will order BUD-->GAL again. (Bot tunnel vision is reasonably predicatable.) I also expect Germany will order UKR support-hold SEV and WAR-->MOS, to set up 2 supports for SEV in the Autumn. Getting Russia into Galicia is maybe the best I can do. Italy potentially moving to Trieste is the wildcard here ...
I like the idea of Rum S Bud-Gal. I suspect that Germany will use Warsaw as leverage on Galicia rather than on Moscow, but that's just a guess.

Meanwhile, in my game, I'm nearing the end of the phase, and I'm a little at a loss as to what to do.

I don't like the Italian builds, but I don't feel I have any choice really but to keep hoping that he doesn't attack... and even if I move Tri-Alb, there's no guarantee that I'll be able to get Greece back (I hope that Turkey tries to take Smy back, but I doubt he will) and if Turkey puts a fleet there it's not the end of the world.

I'm going to be super aggressive this turn:
War-Ukr
Sil-War
Vie S Bud-Gal
Tri-Bud
Ser-Rum

The thinking here is that I want Ukr for leverage on Rum - I'm hoping that Russia plays the same Mos-War S Gal thing as last turn, so Sil-War bounces and Galicia, at worst, will be forced to retreat to Bohemia (which is why Vienna stays and Bud moves). If Russia plays Gal-War S Mos, then I'm still in Gal/Ukr/Sil and I still can potentially take Warsaw back in the Fall...

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#327 Post by DougJoe » Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:41 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:44 pm

Meanwhile, in my game, I'm nearing the end of the phase, and I'm a little at a loss as to what to do.

I don't like the Italian builds, but I don't feel I have any choice really but to keep hoping that he doesn't attack... and even if I move Tri-Alb, there's no guarantee that I'll be able to get Greece back (I hope that Turkey tries to take Smy back, but I doubt he will) and if Turkey puts a fleet there it's not the end of the world.

I'm going to be super aggressive this turn:
War-Ukr
Sil-War
Vie S Bud-Gal
Tri-Bud
Ser-Rum

The thinking here is that I want Ukr for leverage on Rum - I'm hoping that Russia plays the same Mos-War S Gal thing as last turn, so Sil-War bounces and Galicia, at worst, will be forced to retreat to Bohemia (which is why Vienna stays and Bud moves). If Russia plays Gal-War S Mos, then I'm still in Gal/Ukr/Sil and I still can potentially take Warsaw back in the Fall...
https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Well, Russia moved Gal back to War... but using Sil to support hold wouldn't have worked anyway because Germany forced his way into Silesia... and, of course, Turkey did take Greece (not that I could have stopped it). Elsewhere, Italy moved his armies towards France (*whew*) and fleets towards England (except, of course, for Nap-ION, which is interesting) and England is piled on Denmark.

So now what?

One option would be to Pru S Gal-War, Ukr-Mos, Vie-Gal, Bud S Ser. This would probably get Warsaw back, and I'd probably end up removing Prussia. The wildcard here is Germany's army in Silesia.

Another option would be to throw as much as possible at Rumania: Pru-War, Ukr-Sev, Bud S Gal-Rum, Ser-Bul, Vie-Gal(?). Then, again, maybe get rid of Pru. Could also move from Bud instead of Gal depending on what I think Russia is doing with War. Because it's in a center, I don't *think* he'd want to move it out... would guess either Mos S War or War S Mos-Ukr.

Not sure which I like better, still noodling. Might have to break out jDip or a backstabbr sandbox for this one.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#328 Post by Trigfea63 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:57 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:41 pm
DougJoe wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:44 pm

Meanwhile, in my game, I'm nearing the end of the phase, and I'm a little at a loss as to what to do.

I don't like the Italian builds, but I don't feel I have any choice really but to keep hoping that he doesn't attack... and even if I move Tri-Alb, there's no guarantee that I'll be able to get Greece back (I hope that Turkey tries to take Smy back, but I doubt he will) and if Turkey puts a fleet there it's not the end of the world.

I'm going to be super aggressive this turn:
War-Ukr
Sil-War
Vie S Bud-Gal
Tri-Bud
Ser-Rum

The thinking here is that I want Ukr for leverage on Rum - I'm hoping that Russia plays the same Mos-War S Gal thing as last turn, so Sil-War bounces and Galicia, at worst, will be forced to retreat to Bohemia (which is why Vienna stays and Bud moves). If Russia plays Gal-War S Mos, then I'm still in Gal/Ukr/Sil and I still can potentially take Warsaw back in the Fall...
https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Well, Russia moved Gal back to War... but using Sil to support hold wouldn't have worked anyway because Germany forced his way into Silesia... and, of course, Turkey did take Greece (not that I could have stopped it). Elsewhere, Italy moved his armies towards France (*whew*) and fleets towards England (except, of course, for Nap-ION, which is interesting) and England is piled on Denmark.

So now what?

One option would be to Pru S Gal-War, Ukr-Mos, Vie-Gal, Bud S Ser. This would probably get Warsaw back, and I'd probably end up removing Prussia. The wildcard here is Germany's army in Silesia.

Another option would be to throw as much as possible at Rumania: Pru-War, Ukr-Sev, Bud S Gal-Rum, Ser-Bul, Vie-Gal(?). Then, again, maybe get rid of Pru. Could also move from Bud instead of Gal depending on what I think Russia is doing with War. Because it's in a center, I don't *think* he'd want to move it out... would guess either Mos S War or War S Mos-Ukr.

Not sure which I like better, still noodling. Might have to break out jDip or a backstabbr sandbox for this one.
Wow, still a massive jumble. In addition to the tactical side of it, part of the Warsaw vs. Rumania question is whether strategically you want to emphasize strength in the North/Russia or in the South/Balkans. Not sure what the right answer is there.

I agree, Russia is unlikely to move the Warsaw army.

In your Rumania calculations, you can probably count on Turkey having to cover CON again, and maybe also wanting to support Greece. So you have at most 1 Turkish unit to worry about supporting Rumania, or cutting your support.

Similarly, Germany might want to cover Berlin this turn, with you having retreated to Prussia and him about to lose Denmark.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#329 Post by DougJoe » Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:37 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:57 pm

Wow, still a massive jumble. In addition to the tactical side of it, part of the Warsaw vs. Rumania question is whether strategically you want to emphasize strength in the North/Russia or in the South/Balkans. Not sure what the right answer is there.

I agree, Russia is unlikely to move the Warsaw army.

In your Rumania calculations, you can probably count on Turkey having to cover CON again, and maybe also wanting to support Greece. So you have at most 1 Turkish unit to worry about supporting Rumania, or cutting your support.

Similarly, Germany might want to cover Berlin this turn, with you having retreated to Prussia and him about to lose Denmark.
I wasn't sure, either, but my gut was telling me Rum was more important (and I'm not sure I can say why)...

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

So I took Rum, which was destroyed and must be rebuilt in St.P, which is kind of nice. Maybe Russia builds something there that makes England nervous and England pushes East? That would be nice. Italy didn't get anything (what was the point of tapping Gre?) but that move to Tyo is a little frightening. Germany did lose Denmark - I wish he would realize that I'm not after him.

E/R/T are +1, G and A are -1. I was planning on removing Prussia, but now I'm not so sure. Removing Budapest instead feels like it has merit - trying to hold Rum with two units so the other three can go for War.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#330 Post by Trigfea63 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:30 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:37 pm
Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:57 pm

Wow, still a massive jumble. In addition to the tactical side of it, part of the Warsaw vs. Rumania question is whether strategically you want to emphasize strength in the North/Russia or in the South/Balkans. Not sure what the right answer is there.

...
I wasn't sure, either, but my gut was telling me Rum was more important (and I'm not sure I can say why)...

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

So I took Rum, which was destroyed and must be rebuilt in St.P, which is kind of nice. Maybe Russia builds something there that makes England nervous and England pushes East? That would be nice. Italy didn't get anything (what was the point of tapping Gre?) but that move to Tyo is a little frightening. Germany did lose Denmark - I wish he would realize that I'm not after him.

E/R/T are +1, G and A are -1. I was planning on removing Prussia, but now I'm not so sure. Removing Budapest instead feels like it has merit - trying to hold Rum with two units so the other three can go for War.
Nice outcome. Destroying the Rumania army is a big win.

I thought Italy might just hold in Ionian. The tap on Greece is more or less the same thing. Italy knew he wasn't getting a build, so moving to Aegean would have left Ionian exposed to the Turkish F GRE.

I like the idea of removing Budapest. It's risky, but without the Prussia army you'll have a hard time gaining ground anywhere. Rumania is *probably* holdable with 2 units, given Turkey's proclivity for defending CON and GRE. Turkey is +1 so maybe the extra unit slightly changes his posture. Maybe not. You have to hope the Italian army is headed for Munich or Bohemia. If its target was Trieste, presumably it would have just moved there.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#331 Post by Trigfea63 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:42 pm

In my own game, I've looked at the map a few times. Each time I see the vacant Russian-owned Trieste and the Italian army sitting in Venice with nothing to do, and I'm unsure what to do about it.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=439208

I'm now leaning pretty heavily toward ordering SER-->TRI. If Italy orders VEN-->TRI, it will have been clearly the right thing to do. If not, then I probably capture Trieste, which isn't so terrible. Maybe that was obvious, and my imagined "alliance" with bot-Russia clouded my thinking.

Other likely orders:
RUM supports Russian A BUD-->GAL
CON-->BUL
BLA support-hold RUM
ANK-->ARM
EAS-->ION supported by TUN
SMY-->AEG

Still 1 day plus to deadline.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#332 Post by DougJoe » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:13 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:30 pm

Nice outcome. Destroying the Rumania army is a big win.

I thought Italy might just hold in Ionian. The tap on Greece is more or less the same thing. Italy knew he wasn't getting a build, so moving to Aegean would have left Ionian exposed to the Turkish F GRE.

I like the idea of removing Budapest. It's risky, but without the Prussia army you'll have a hard time gaining ground anywhere. Rumania is *probably* holdable with 2 units, given Turkey's proclivity for defending CON and GRE. Turkey is +1 so maybe the extra unit slightly changes his posture. Maybe not. You have to hope the Italian army is headed for Munich or Bohemia. If its target was Trieste, presumably it would have just moved there.
It's an interesting choice. Even if I remove Prussia, Russia cannot alone (I don't think) protect both War and Sev - it's a guessing game. Whereas, if I remove Bud, then Pru S Gal-War, Ukr-Mos probably gets War *and* that army is probably destroyed (I'm running under the assumption that army St.P exists and moves to Livonia.)
Trigfea63 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:42 pm
In my own game, I've looked at the map a few times. Each time I see the vacant Russian-owned Trieste and the Italian army sitting in Venice with nothing to do, and I'm unsure what to do about it.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=439208

I'm now leaning pretty heavily toward ordering SER-->TRI. If Italy orders VEN-->TRI, it will have been clearly the right thing to do. If not, then I probably capture Trieste, which isn't so terrible. Maybe that was obvious, and my imagined "alliance" with bot-Russia clouded my thinking.

Other likely orders:
RUM supports Russian A BUD-->GAL
CON-->BUL
BLA support-hold RUM
ANK-->ARM
EAS-->ION supported by TUN
SMY-->AEG

Still 1 day plus to deadline.
Trieste does present an interesting dilemma. Personally, I'd be worried that I'd get it, then Russia would just kick me back out. But Russia does seem pretty docile this game, so it's hard to say. I'm also not sure you want Russia to lose another army this year, not before you've had at least a crack at Sev... I think that with only two armies (and a Germany army in Tyo) I think the position crumbles and it will be really hard to push Germany back after that... I don't think you need Tri, but you don't want Italy to snipe it, either... that's a tough one.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#333 Post by DougJoe » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:42 am

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:13 am

It's an interesting choice. Even if I remove Prussia, Russia cannot alone (I don't think) protect both War and Sev - it's a guessing game. Whereas, if I remove Bud, then Pru S Gal-War, Ukr-Mos probably gets War *and* that army is probably destroyed (I'm running under the assumption that army St.P exists and moves to Livonia.)
I got rid of Budapest. England built F Lvp, Turkey built F Con, Russia build A St.P, Germany removed BAL. The only one that surprised me was F Con, I thought it would be an army.

So I went ahead with the plan:
Pru S Gal-War, Ser S Rum...

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

...and it turned out pretty well.
Russia used Mos to defend Sev, which he didn't need to do because Turkey tapped Rum (and Rum S Ukr-Sev then doesn't work) but of course Russia couldn't count on the tap. He moved War-Gal and StP-Lvn (as expected) and so War had no retreat and was disbanded (yay!). Elsewhere around the board, Italy is in Brest, tried to move to Munich, and got into AEG. England pushed on Germany... I kind of think I want England to grow to slow up Italy in the North, but not sure.

What to do now?

I think Russia has these options this turn:
1. Lvn S Mos S Lvn
2. Lvn S Mos-War
3. Mos S Lvn-War
4. Mos S Sev, Lvn S Mos (or Lvn-War?)

My prediction is that Russia will play Mos S Lvn-War. With those moves, I don't think there's a way for me to force Mos *and* retain War, so, in response, I will play Ukr-Mos, War S Pru-Lvn. If that all works, I'm in Lvp/War/Ukr and Mos should fall the next year.

I could also just sit on War (Pru S War) and use Ukr to protect Rum, just to make sure that Russia doesn't figure out using Sev to support Turkey... and now that I think about it, I kind of like that idea better. I can see what Russia does this turn, then see if I can use that against him next spring after my build to try for Lvn, then take Mos in the fall...

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#334 Post by DougJoe » Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:02 am

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:42 am
I got rid of Budapest. England built F Lvp, Turkey built F Con, Russia build A St.P, Germany removed BAL. The only one that surprised me was F Con, I thought it would be an army.

So I went ahead with the plan:
Pru S Gal-War, Ser S Rum...

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

...and it turned out pretty well.
Russia used Mos to defend Sev, which he didn't need to do because Turkey tapped Rum (and Rum S Ukr-Sev then doesn't work) but of course Russia couldn't count on the tap. He moved War-Gal and StP-Lvn (as expected) and so War had no retreat and was disbanded (yay!). Elsewhere around the board, Italy is in Brest, tried to move to Munich, and got into AEG. England pushed on Germany... I kind of think I want England to grow to slow up Italy in the North, but not sure.

What to do now?

I think Russia has these options this turn:
1. Lvn S Mos S Lvn
2. Lvn S Mos-War
3. Mos S Lvn-War
4. Mos S Sev, Lvn S Mos (or Lvn-War?)

My prediction is that Russia will play Mos S Lvn-War. With those moves, I don't think there's a way for me to force Mos *and* retain War, so, in response, I will play Ukr-Mos, War S Pru-Lvn. If that all works, I'm in Lvp/War/Ukr and Mos should fall the next year.

I could also just sit on War (Pru S War) and use Ukr to protect Rum, just to make sure that Russia doesn't figure out using Sev to support Turkey... and now that I think about it, I kind of like that idea better. I can see what Russia does this turn, then see if I can use that against him next spring after my build to try for Lvn, then take Mos in the fall...
...the fall result: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=441198

Well, I'm glad I changed my mind, as Russia did indeed use Sev to Support BLA-Rum! I used Ukr to tap Sev (and supported it from Rum) so of course nothing happened... and because Turkey didn't defend Con, Italy walked right in.

So Italy is +2, England (who got Kiel) is +1, Austria is +1, France and Turkey are -1. The fact that Italy is +2 is bothersome, as he's at *10* now (although the two fleets in Con/Smy can't get into Ank easily at the moment).

What to build? I really want to build A Bud, to help in the defense of Rum so that frees up Ukr to tap Mos... I think I have to keep down the road of Italy being docile, even though I don't *want* to do that. At this point, I have three more potential centers I can get - StP, Mos, and Sev - and I have to get them quickly so that I can build potential defensive units before Italy stabs me... I could build A Tri this turn in the hopes that either he gets scared off or builds F Rom and Nap (and then wouldn't Tri-Ven be interesting?) but having typed that I don't like that idea. A Bud it is, and if I get stabbed, I get stabbed. A Bud it is.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#335 Post by DougJoe » Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:44 am

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:02 am
...the fall result: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=441198

Well, I'm glad I changed my mind, as Russia did indeed use Sev to Support BLA-Rum! I used Ukr to tap Sev (and supported it from Rum) so of course nothing happened... and because Turkey didn't defend Con, Italy walked right in.

So Italy is +2, England (who got Kiel) is +1, Austria is +1, France and Turkey are -1. The fact that Italy is +2 is bothersome, as he's at *10* now (although the two fleets in Con/Smy can't get into Ank easily at the moment).

What to build? I really want to build A Bud, to help in the defense of Rum so that frees up Ukr to tap Mos... I think I have to keep down the road of Italy being docile, even though I don't *want* to do that. At this point, I have three more potential centers I can get - StP, Mos, and Sev - and I have to get them quickly so that I can build potential defensive units before Italy stabs me... I could build A Tri this turn in the hopes that either he gets scared off or builds F Rom and Nap (and then wouldn't Tri-Ven be interesting?) but having typed that I don't like that idea. A Bud it is, and if I get stabbed, I get stabbed. A Bud it is.
Well, the good news is that the Turk was sensible and removed BLA, which really takes the pressure of of Rum... the bad news is that Italy did build A Ven (although F Nap instead of A Rom) so that of course is making the spider-sense go crazy. He's got Paris on a platter, too, as well as possibly Munich. Yuck. Plus, he doesn't seem to be advancing on England now, but we'll see.

I'd really, really, really, like to get two centers this year but I think I can only guarantee one... grr. I think I'm going to try for Moscow this turn, and leave Rum hang to use Serbia to move Bud back to Tri... just... ick.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#336 Post by DougJoe » Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:00 am

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:44 am
Well, the good news is that the Turk was sensible and removed BLA, which really takes the pressure of of Rum... the bad news is that Italy did build A Ven (although F Nap instead of A Rom) so that of course is making the spider-sense go crazy. He's got Paris on a platter, too, as well as possibly Munich. Yuck. Plus, he doesn't seem to be advancing on England now, but we'll see.

I'd really, really, really, like to get two centers this year but I think I can only guarantee one... grr. I think I'm going to try for Moscow this turn, and leave Rum hang to use Serbia to move Bud back to Tri... just... ick.
https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Got Moscow. Can hold it no problem, as well as defend War. Can't guarantee Sev, without losing Mos, but can certainly try for it. Italy did not go for Tri or Ven, but moved Ven-Tyo, Tyo-Boh. Not sure if he's trying to pile up on Germany or what. He got Paris, of course.

So Pru-War, Ukr S Mos. Other than that... *gulp*. I'm very, very, tempted to try for Venice. I almost feel like I have to, then build Vie/Tri, but Italy probably still builds one and it's army Rome and then it's guessing games between Rom/Tyo/Boh and Ven/Tri/Vie and does Italy go for Venice or Vienna, as I wouldn't be able to protect both... there are other crazy things, too, like maybe Italy taps ION again and I can get Bulgaria from Serbia... Hm.

Time to sleep.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#337 Post by Trigfea63 » Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:33 am

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:00 am
https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Got Moscow. Can hold it no problem, as well as defend War. Can't guarantee Sev, without losing Mos, but can certainly try for it. Italy did not go for Tri or Ven, but moved Ven-Tyo, Tyo-Boh. Not sure if he's trying to pile up on Germany or what. He got Paris, of course.

So Pru-War, Ukr S Mos. Other than that... *gulp*. I'm very, very, tempted to try for Venice. I almost feel like I have to, then build Vie/Tri, but Italy probably still builds one and it's army Rome and then it's guessing games between Rom/Tyo/Boh and Ven/Tri/Vie and does Italy go for Venice or Vienna, as I wouldn't be able to protect both... there are other crazy things, too, like maybe Italy taps ION again and I can get Bulgaria from Serbia... Hm.

Time to sleep.
What's this? I leave you alone for 2 game-years and you ... totally recover your position! Nicely done. It's not certain, but I would guess Italy's after Munich, not Vienna.
DougJoe wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:13 am
Trigfea63 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:42 pm
In my own game, I've looked at the map a few times. Each time I see the vacant Russian-owned Trieste and the Italian army sitting in Venice with nothing to do, and I'm unsure what to do about it.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=439208

I'm now leaning pretty heavily toward ordering SER-->TRI. If Italy orders VEN-->TRI, it will have been clearly the right thing to do. If not, then I probably capture Trieste, which isn't so terrible. Maybe that was obvious, and my imagined "alliance" with bot-Russia clouded my thinking.

Other likely orders:
RUM supports Russian A BUD-->GAL
CON-->BUL
BLA support-hold RUM
ANK-->ARM
EAS-->ION supported by TUN
SMY-->AEG

Still 1 day plus to deadline.
Trieste does present an interesting dilemma. Personally, I'd be worried that I'd get it, then Russia would just kick me back out. But Russia does seem pretty docile this game, so it's hard to say. I'm also not sure you want Russia to lose another army this year, not before you've had at least a crack at Sev... I think that with only two armies (and a Germany army in Tyo) I think the position crumbles and it will be really hard to push Germany back after that... I don't think you need Tri, but you don't want Italy to snipe it, either... that's a tough one.
Yep. It's a guessing game with Italy. If I had more confidence Italy won't go for Trieste, I'd leave Trieste alone. I like having the advance Russian force fighting Germany for me. I'm just not sure what else that Italian army Venice does. It's blocked in Tyrolia now. I don't think it goes to Piedmont, leaving Venice open. Hmm, moving it to Trieste leaves Venice open, too ... but only if Italy gets a center for it. I guess it could just hold for the Spring season. You might have convinced me. Still 14 hours to mull it some more. (Who, me procrastinate? Never ... ;-) )

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#338 Post by DougJoe » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:12 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:33 am
DougJoe wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:00 am
https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Got Moscow. Can hold it no problem, as well as defend War. Can't guarantee Sev, without losing Mos, but can certainly try for it. Italy did not go for Tri or Ven, but moved Ven-Tyo, Tyo-Boh. Not sure if he's trying to pile up on Germany or what. He got Paris, of course.

So Pru-War, Ukr S Mos. Other than that... *gulp*. I'm very, very, tempted to try for Venice. I almost feel like I have to, then build Vie/Tri, but Italy probably still builds one and it's army Rome and then it's guessing games between Rom/Tyo/Boh and Ven/Tri/Vie and does Italy go for Venice or Vienna, as I wouldn't be able to protect both... there are other crazy things, too, like maybe Italy taps ION again and I can get Bulgaria from Serbia... Hm.

Time to sleep.
What's this? I leave you alone for 2 game-years and you ... totally recover your position! Nicely done. It's not certain, but I would guess Italy's after Munich, not Vienna.
Yeah, I think he's after Munich, too - this turn. It's more a matter of "how long can I wait/how big can I let him get?" Leaning against going after Venice now... Right now I have:
Ser-Bul, Tri-Alb, Rum S Ser-Bul, Ukr S Mos, Mos S Pru-War.
Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:33 am
Yep. It's a guessing game with Italy. If I had more confidence Italy won't go for Trieste, I'd leave Trieste alone. I like having the advance Russian force fighting Germany for me. I'm just not sure what else that Italian army Venice does. It's blocked in Tyrolia now. I don't think it goes to Piedmont, leaving Venice open. Hmm, moving it to Trieste leaves Venice open, too ... but only if Italy gets a center for it. I guess it could just hold for the Spring season. You might have convinced me. Still 14 hours to mull it some more. (Who, me procrastinate? Never ... ;-) )
We'll see what happens. It's a tough choice...

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#339 Post by DougJoe » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:26 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:12 pm

Yeah, I think he's after Munich, too - this turn. It's more a matter of "how long can I wait/how big can I let him get?" Leaning against going after Venice now... Right now I have:
Ser-Bul, Tri-Alb, Rum S Ser-Bul, Ukr S Mos, Mos S Pru-War.
I decided to click Ready...

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

I held Moscow, and ION did tap Gre, which allowed me to take Bul! So Austria gets two builds this turn. Italy did take Venice, although he took it from Tyo, which I like better than him taking it from Burgundy. Italy also gets two builds. I hope those builds are fleets, but I'm guessing at least one will army Ven (again).

I'm setup to potentially take Greece this year, as well as StP or Sev. I think I'm building two armies again. Vienna for sure. Not sure whether Bud or Tri. Bud is less threatening to Italy, so I might go with that for now?

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#340 Post by DougJoe » Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:43 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:26 pm
I decided to click Ready...

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

I held Moscow, and ION did tap Gre, which allowed me to take Bul! So Austria gets two builds this turn. Italy did take Venice, although he took it from Tyo, which I like better than him taking it from Burgundy. Italy also gets two builds. I hope those builds are fleets, but I'm guessing at least one will army Ven (again).

I'm setup to potentially take Greece this year, as well as StP or Sev. I think I'm building two armies again. Vienna for sure. Not sure whether Bud or Tri. Bud is less threatening to Italy, so I might go with that for now?
I ended up building in Bud, then in the spring, moved the following:

Vie S Bud-Tri,
Ser-Gre S Bul,
Ukr-Sev,
War S Mos

I got into Gre (the turkish fleet is destroyed) and everything else worked. The more interesting thing is that Italy moved Ven-Tyo and Boh-Sil. (He did also get into Belgium). He also moved into BLA and AEG, which I assume he is going to use to force his way into Con to eventually get Ank. So I should get at least 2 builds this year...

...I'm still thinking about attacking Italy. Vie-Tyo, Tri-Ven. That would get me three builds and put me at 11. Italy would either be +0 (belgium) or +1 (bel & hol). If he ends up +0 (and Tyo moves like I expect) then I would have units in Ven/Tyo/Tri/Vie/Bud, which seems pretty powerful with Rome on the chopping block. He'd be at 12 and I'd be at 11... defending Gre/Bul might be iffy, but I should have StP to compensate if needed?

Hm.

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