Bot Talk

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georgefc3
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Bot Talk

#1 Post by georgefc3 » Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:21 pm

This thread is for talking about bots and bot games. There is another thread about "Best Bot Country" and I didn't want to hijack that thread.

Here is my latest game as Turkey.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=427835

I ended up winning this game, although I probably shouldn't have. After Spring '07 my buddy Russia and I had 10 centers each. Our enemies France and England had 8 centers each and had successfully blockaded us. I was tempted to give up and vote for a draw, ending the game. However I saw that I could stab Russia that turn and gain 3 centers. That would give me 13 and a shot at a solo.

I think it is a pretty interesting game. Note on the very last turn I needed three centers to win. Tunis was firmly in France's control. St. Petersburg was beyond reach. I don't think I could win Berlin either as England could support it with fleets.

I had just taken Munich in the Spring, giving me 16 centers. I wanted to get to 18 centers in the fall before France and England wised up. I was going to take Moscow in the Fall so I was going to get to 17.

The key was to take Marseilles. I had been attacking Marseilles from Piedmont and Lyons for quite a few seasons. He had been protecting it from Burgundy the whole time. My plan was to tap Burgundy from Munich cutting his support. The bots could stop me either by supporting from Spain or cutting my support in Lyons.

They did nothing and I was able to gain Marseilles and the 18th center.

Comments?
1

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#2 Post by georgefc3 » Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:24 am

Here is another Turkish win. In this game Italy pulled a Lepanto on me and I was able to fight it off. He kept trying to gain the Eastern Med and I kept bouncing him there.

The link:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=427966


By the fall of '06 I was still at 4 centers and Russia was at 12 centers. In '07 I was finally able to get a fifth center, Greece.

Russia continued to grow and eventually got to 15 centers. I had Greece, Tunis and all of Italy. France was down to 10. I was at 9. I was getting a little concerned about a Russian win. He had a fleet in the North Sea. I thought now would be time for a little stab of my once bot friend.

In two years I doubled from 9 centers to 18 with an easy win.

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#3 Post by georgefc3 » Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:24 am

Here is my first bot game as Austria, which turned out to be a win:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=428197

The idea was simple. An ordinary Austria game, tapping Galicia and getting Serbia and Greece. Italy obliged, doing a Lepanto.

Even so the game went very very slowly. It was 1905 before I was able to get Rumania and my sixth build. Meanwhile Germany was dominating in the North with 7 centers and a unit in Burgundy.

By fall of '07 I lost Rumania but gained Bulgaria and Con. Italy was able to gain Smyrna (thanks, Italy).

Italy pulled it forces out of the Turkish area and moved towards Iberia. This greatly helped Germany. Germany was able to crush both France and England. I was able to get the rest of Turkey (Ankara) as well as Sev, Mos and StP.

Germany was able to get an effective stalemate line with his fleets. I got Berlin at one point but lost it again.

Stuck, I decided a stab of Italy was a good idea. I had quite a few extra units. I moved my fleet con to the Ionian, got three armies in the Turkey area and made sure to leave Trieste open. I convoyed an army to Naples, took the last Turkish center (Ankara) and built a second fleet in Trieste.

My 18 centers consisted of all of the South plus St. Pete. My plan was to invade Scandinavia but Italy got there first, winning Norway with two fleets.

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#4 Post by georgefc3 » Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:27 pm

Here is another game as Austria and another win.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=428365

Lest you think that playing with Austria and winning is a piece of cake, that is not true. This game is Austria-183 and the previous game was Austria-179. So games 180, 181 and 182 were draws (that I would have lost if I continued playing).

Basically if Italy attacks you the game is lost. I lost one winnable game. I hit Galicia on turn on and Italy held in Venice. I moved to Trieste to protect against a possible stab. Russia moved to Galicia and then to Bohemia and Galicia....

:cry:

So basically you need to trust Italy if you want to have a hope of winning.

This game (183, the win) was pretty interesting. I got two builds on the first turn and Italy was setting up a Lepanto. He moved the army to Tunis and his fleet was in the Ionian. I decided to build a second fleet in Trieste. The thinking here is that if Italy pulled his support and moved against France I would then have two fleets against Turkey.

As it turned out Italy attacked Turkey winning Smyrna early. There was a bunch of jostling for the Aegean. I kept getting bounced by Turkey early on and then by Italy. Italy could have supported himself into the Aegean and it probably would have been his best move. Eventually Italy stopped bouncing me in the Aegean without any apparent hard feelings.

I was thus able to get all of Turkey except Smyrna. I was also able to get my fleet into the Black Sea. This enabled me to take over the rest of Russia pretty quickly.

I was able to gain St. Petersburg, Finland, Norway and Sweden.

At this point I was at 14 centers and allied with both Germany and Italy.

From my previous game moving against Germany likely wouldn't have worked. I had built a couple of more fleets. Interestingly I was able to move my fleets to the Ionian and Tyrrhenian Sea. :shock:

What I have found out is that as long as you don't move into your ally's supply centers they don't look it as a stab. And your allies typically don't cover their centers making late game stabs super easy.

The final season I started at 14 centers and saw an easy way to get to 18. Italy had no builds and their fleets were far away and moving toward the MAO and the northern part of the map. Since Italy was completely undefended I waited until the Fall and moved to Tunis, Venice, Naples and Smyrna. I also successfully was able to capture Sweden, giving me 19. Five centers on my last turn.

Rome was uncaptured but I could easily have taken it on the next turn if the game had continued.

Comments?

DougJoe
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Re: Bot Talk

#5 Post by DougJoe » Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:10 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:27 pm
Here is another game as Austria and another win.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=428365

Lest you think that playing with Austria and winning is a piece of cake, that is not true. This game is Austria-183 and the previous game was Austria-179. So games 180, 181 and 182 were draws (that I would have lost if I continued playing).

Basically if Italy attacks you the game is lost. I lost one winnable game. I hit Galicia on turn on and Italy held in Venice. I moved to Trieste to protect against a possible stab. Russia moved to Galicia and then to Bohemia and Galicia....

:cry:

So basically you need to trust Italy if you want to have a hope of winning.
Agreed about Italy. It's darn hard to win if Italy attacks you, which from my memory he tends to do more often than not (I haven't done the S1901 analysis of all 350+ of my games yet). I have only 9 solos in 51 games as Austria, and in 8 of those Italy left me alone. In the other one, Italy tried Rom->Ven, Ven->Tyo but Germany bounced him out of Tyo, then Italy gave up in the fall of 01 because France had moved Mar->Pie in the spring. (I had 7 other games where I had a decent result but didn't win - Italy did not attack in S01 in any of those games.)

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#6 Post by georgefc3 » Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:33 am

Joe - my suggestion is to try again.

In three of the five games where I was playing Austria Italy was my friend or neutral. In two of the five games I was able to get an easy win.

With good play and an Italian friend Austria has a good game.

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#7 Post by georgefc3 » Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:36 am

Oh... And Joe - what do you think of building the fleet in Trieste in season 1?

In this game the fleet was pretty useful.

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#8 Post by georgefc3 » Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:43 am

Here is an interesting win as Italy. Austria played a very conservative game. He could have easily crushed Russia but played defensively instead.

Here is the link:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=428474

I was able to quickly get all of Turkey before turning my sights on France. I convoyed my army in Piedmont over to Spain. Pretty quickly I got all of Iberia as well as three fleets in the Atlantic.

Eventually I was able to conquer all of France, Germany and England.

I got to 17 centers with Austria still my ally. I stabbed him and got an amazing eight centers in my final season to end with an overwhelming tally of 25 centers!!! :shock: :shock:

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#9 Post by georgefc3 » Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:56 pm

Here is my first Russian victory.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=428951

This game was difficult at every phase. England seems to hate Russia. Austria definitely does. I had a game (not this game) where Germany opened to Silesia and took Warsaw season 1.

Getting to #18 was pretty difficult. I had Kiel earlier but got dislodged when I took Munich. It took me a few seasons to get it back.

I was getting pretty frustrated. My game long ally was Turkey. I would have stabbed him to get to 18 quicker but my units were out of position. He could have stabbed me anytime.

In the end I didn't need to stab him. My units were in position though, just in case.

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#10 Post by georgefc3 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:51 am

Hey Everyone

I've been using this thread to talk about my games. Mostly to brag about my wins but also to discuss strategy and the bots sometimes odd (or weak maybe) behavior.

I have managed to win with all the powers except England. I recently won with Russia. It was a tough game but I was able to pull it off.

I've tried several times with England and been unsuccessful. Here is my latest attempt:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429233

According to Brother Bored the best strategy for England in gunboat is to go after France from the start. Here is the link:

https://brotherbored.com/gunboat-diplom ... %20Gunboat.

So far I have come up with nothing. Has anyone else had success with England? Suggestions, comments, game links of successful games?

Thanks!

DougJoe
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Re: Bot Talk

#11 Post by DougJoe » Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:41 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:51 am
Hey Everyone

I've been using this thread to talk about my games. Mostly to brag about my wins but also to discuss strategy and the bots sometimes odd (or weak maybe) behavior.

I have managed to win with all the powers except England. I recently won with Russia. It was a tough game but I was able to pull it off.

I've tried several times with England and been unsuccessful. Here is my latest attempt:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429233

According to Brother Bored the best strategy for England in gunboat is to go after France from the start. Here is the link:

https://brotherbored.com/gunboat-diplom ... %20Gunboat.

So far I have come up with nothing. Has anyone else had success with England? Suggestions, comments, game links of successful games?

Thanks!
England is my 2nd worst power, only 14 solos in 51 games. Feel free to look at any of my games (both successful and not) at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

(Aside: Since you've read the BrotherBored stuff, one reason I keep track of all of this data is because I was curious how my experiences in the bots games compared with his gunboat tier list.)

I'm not sure if I have any "magic" advice for England, other than the statement that I don't think I've had a game as England where I've had a long term alliance with bot France. In a way, I feel that E/F somewhat mirrors I/T in terms of the bots. Bot Turkey seems heavily skewed to eventually attack Italy... I would say the same thing of bot France eventually attacking England. So generally as England, even if France and I are working together, I'm always looking for an opportunity to stab when he's weak. For example, https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=367215 , where Germany played such a bizarre opening that I couldn't resist the urge to attack him right away. I though I dodged a bullet in S04 when France moved MAO to WES instead of IRI - at that point I think I decided, even though we appeared to have a good thing going, that it was time for our partnership to end.

Your current game is interesting.
  • You at least got a bot Germany that wanted to attack France
  • You got into Brest, but as so often happens with E vs. F, you lost it. I've done the same thing.
  • At this point, France now only has one fleet, which is good for you, but without the defend from StP Germany popped Norway. So now you have a choice to make. Do you turn around and start trying to fight Germany, or do you stay the course and try to work with Germany to crack Por/Spa/Mar?
  • You would have to help Germany take Gas, and even then Mar will most likely be the first center to fall (which involves you tapping Spa) unless Germany decides to tap Mar and support you into Spa from WES with Gas (so you can tap Por with MAO). But the odds of bot Germany getting that sequence right... and Italy looks like he's on his way over there, too, which complicates things.
I noticed you just stopped the game in the link you gave, which makes everything I just wrote moot... generally, I find that weakening France, and then going after Germany (sometimes Russia through StP as well) has worked - but you need Germany, Russia, and sometimes Italy to all get on board with that plan, and if Germany nor Italy attacks France and France and Russia attack you, it's tough.

Also, I'd encourage you to check this game out: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=339763

Always give the bots every opportunity you can to make mistakes. Most of the time they won't, but every now and then one like this one happens.
1

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#12 Post by georgefc3 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:12 pm

Thanks for the response. I will study these games.

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#13 Post by georgefc3 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:21 pm

Interesting. You completely abandoned Norway in season 1, getting Belgium instead.

I liked the way you were able to gain Iberia. Very instructive.

DougJoe
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Re: Bot Talk

#14 Post by DougJoe » Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:28 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:33 am
Joe - my suggestion is to try again.

In three of the five games where I was playing Austria Italy was my friend or neutral. In two of the five games I was able to get an easy win.

With good play and an Italian friend Austria has a good game.
I'm assuming you're responding to me, although, FYI, I tend to use the "Doug" part of "DougJoe" rather than the "Joe" part.
I don't know if you caught that I've played 51 game as Austria - "try again" isn't a problem for me. ;) I do tend to play the games out to the bitter end, which isn't something that everyone does.
georgefc3 wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:36 am
Oh... And Joe - what do you think of building the fleet in Trieste in season 1?

In this game the fleet was pretty useful.
Yeah, it looked like it was, and it worked, and that's what matters.

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#15 Post by georgefc3 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:29 pm

You won after having been reduced to two centers and two units in Spring '19.

Amazing!

Grats on a very interesting win!

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#16 Post by georgefc3 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:48 pm

Doug

You write "I do tend to play the games out to the bitter end, which isn't something that everyone does.".

I am net to the site. I was doing horribly at first. I got my first win as Germany on Saturday. According to the search function I have played 53 games with 12 wins. If things go south I tend to quit (vote for a draw).

Basically I have been looking for a "winning formula" if there is one. And I also am interested in figuring out how the bots "think" and act.

One thing I notice about bots is that if you are allied with them (and winning) they will stay loyal to you. You can be setting up a four center stab and they will leave themselves open and let you win.

A little odd. Definitely not like human players.

Trigfea63
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Re: Bot Talk

#17 Post by Trigfea63 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:47 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:41 pm
georgefc3 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:51 am
Hey Everyone

I've been using this thread to talk about my games. Mostly to brag about my wins but also to discuss strategy and the bots sometimes odd (or weak maybe) behavior.

I have managed to win with all the powers except England. I recently won with Russia. It was a tough game but I was able to pull it off.

I've tried several times with England and been unsuccessful. Here is my latest attempt:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429233

According to Brother Bored the best strategy for England in gunboat is to go after France from the start. Here is the link:

https://brotherbored.com/gunboat-diplom ... %20Gunboat.

So far I have come up with nothing. Has anyone else had success with England? Suggestions, comments, game links of successful games?

Thanks!
England is my 2nd worst power, only 14 solos in 51 games. Feel free to look at any of my games (both successful and not) at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

(Aside: Since you've read the BrotherBored stuff, one reason I keep track of all of this data is because I was curious how my experiences in the bots games compared with his gunboat tier list.)

I'm not sure if I have any "magic" advice for England, other than the statement that I don't think I've had a game as England where I've had a long term alliance with bot France. In a way, I feel that E/F somewhat mirrors I/T in terms of the bots. Bot Turkey seems heavily skewed to eventually attack Italy... I would say the same thing of bot France eventually attacking England. So generally as England, even if France and I are working together, I'm always looking for an opportunity to stab when he's weak. For example, https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=367215 , where Germany played such a bizarre opening that I couldn't resist the urge to attack him right away. I though I dodged a bullet in S04 when France moved MAO to WES instead of IRI - at that point I think I decided, even though we appeared to have a good thing going, that it was time for our partnership to end.

Your current game is interesting.
  • You at least got a bot Germany that wanted to attack France
  • You got into Brest, but as so often happens with E vs. F, you lost it. I've done the same thing.
  • At this point, France now only has one fleet, which is good for you, but without the defend from StP Germany popped Norway. So now you have a choice to make. Do you turn around and start trying to fight Germany, or do you stay the course and try to work with Germany to crack Por/Spa/Mar?
  • You would have to help Germany take Gas, and even then Mar will most likely be the first center to fall (which involves you tapping Spa) unless Germany decides to tap Mar and support you into Spa from WES with Gas (so you can tap Por with MAO). But the odds of bot Germany getting that sequence right... and Italy looks like he's on his way over there, too, which complicates things.
I noticed you just stopped the game in the link you gave, which makes everything I just wrote moot... generally, I find that weakening France, and then going after Germany (sometimes Russia through StP as well) has worked - but you need Germany, Russia, and sometimes Italy to all get on board with that plan, and if Germany nor Italy attacks France and France and Russia attack you, it's tough.

Also, I'd encourage you to check this game out: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=339763

Always give the bots every opportunity you can to make mistakes. Most of the time they won't, but every now and then one like this one happens.
I think as England you have to be persistent, and prepared to defend your home centers when France/Germany try to invade, which they usually do. (I think that's true against human players, too.) I have a much smaller dataset than Doug's against the bots but I have won as England 3 times. In 2 of those 3 I was not doing particularly well at the beginning. In this one France attacked pretty hard, then when I finally managed to fend that off, Germany attacked pretty hard. I was down to 1 home center, and later down to 2 supply centers total. But then, an opportunity arose and I ended up winning: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=406529

In this other one, Germany got the early advantage, then some time later France gained momentum, but then a few years after that I was able to get the upper hand on both of them: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=360881

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#18 Post by georgefc3 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:24 pm

Ok... The lesson with England is that there is no "easy" way to get a win. You need persistence (and luck) to get the win.

Funny... With the exception of Russia this wasn't necessary with the other powers. Even Austria. With Austria all I needed was Italy not to attack me. Then I could make forcing moves and take the rest of the map.

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#19 Post by georgefc3 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:25 pm

If you want... I can play an Austria game and give a play by play.

georgefc3
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Re: Bot Talk

#20 Post by georgefc3 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:44 pm

And if you (Doug or Trig) wanted to set up an English game complete with play by play, I would like that. I would read it and comment on it.

If you could, create a new topic "England vs Bots"

Thanks

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