Austria vs Bots

[georgefc3]

Doug

You wrote "Also, George and Trig, don't forget that you can "spectate" games... I've got both of yours in my list."

Oh! Cool!

I've spectated (if that is a word) T-0128.

Still unclear what the other English game is.

[georgefc3]

Doug and Trig

Made my move. Here is the link, for your convenience.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

I realized this is a fall move and I wanted a build. So I supported myself into Rumania with help from Serbia and Budapest. My move succeeded.

I also, interestingly, got into the Aegean. The Russia fleet in Rumania had no retreat and thus needed to disband. Which makes my life a little easier.

Russia advanced into Galicia. Shouldn't be a problem. I can support myself next season into Galicia and also support myself holding in Rumania

With the Fleet in the Aegean I can also support myself into Bulgaria (sc) (which will likely fail.

I feel right now like that cat that ate the canary.

Thoughts, comments or concerns?

[DougJoe]

Doug

You wrote "Also, George and Trig, don't forget that you can "spectate" games... I've got both of yours in my list."

Oh! Cool!

I've spectated (if that is a word) T-0128.

Still unclear what the other English game is.

It's mine, named "Identify" (long story, my bot games have "themed" names): https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429768

[DougJoe]

Doug and Trig

Made my move. Here is the link, for your convenience.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

I realized this is a fall move and I wanted a build. So I supported myself into Rumania with help from Serbia and Budapest. My move succeeded.

I also, interestingly, got into the Aegean. The Russia fleet in Rumania had no retreat and thus needed to disband. Which makes my life a little easier.

Russia advanced into Galicia. Shouldn't be a problem. I can support myself next season into Galicia and also support myself holding in Rumania

With the Fleet in the Aegean I can also support myself into Bulgaria (sc) (which will likely fail.

I feel right now like that cat that ate the canary.

Thoughts, comments or concerns?

Looks very good for you so far. This is where I think I'd prefer an army in Greece, as if you put a fleet on the SC of Bul, you can't use that to help support Rum (not that you will need it). Again, that's my personal preference. There's a lot of different ways to play this position based on what you think Turkey is doing to do. I would suspect that Russia's next moves are Gal->Rum S Sev. The only thing I would be nervous about is Turkish support from either BLA or Bul or both for that Russian move - but I'm probably overthinking it.

[Trigfea63]

I see I have some catching up to do. Doug, good point that you can "spectate" games. I'm now spectating both yours and George's. Makes them much easier to find.

Doug, you're in great shape. I don't have anything useful to add at this time.

George, one thought on yours. You, too, are in great shape. As to the upcoming moves:

Russia advanced into Galicia. Shouldn't be a problem. I can support myself next season into Galicia and also support myself holding in Rumania

With the Fleet in the Aegean I can also support myself into Bulgaria (sc) (which will likely fail.

These are solid moves, although, I agree with Doug, I'd rather have an army in BUL than a fleet. A different way to skin the cat could be to go for Galicia and Bulgaria in the spring: RUM-->BUL with 2 supports and Aegean-->CON to cut support (that also helps your pal Italy). You'll probably lose RUM to the Russian, but you'll have 4 armies surrounding it in the fall and you should be able to take it right back.

For my own game, I need another day to analyze and post my thoughts.

[georgefc3]

Doug...

You write

[/quote]
These are solid moves, although, I agree with Doug, I'd rather have an army in BUL than a fleet. A different way to skin the cat could be to go for Galicia and Bulgaria in the spring: RUM-->BUL with 2 supports and Aegean-->CON to cut support (that also helps your pal Italy). You'll probably lose RUM to the Russian, but you'll have 4 armies surrounding it in the fall and you should be able to take it right back.
[/quote]

This is very sensible. By the way I've completed the building phase. Germany got two builds. A fleet in Kiel and an army in Berlin.

There is another advantage of an army in Bulgaria. One that has been weighing on my mind. I want to quickly gain a fleet in the Black Sea. Which means I need to get not only Con but a fleet in Bulgaria (nc). I can't use the sc to support into the Black. With an army in Bulgaria I can do a do-see-do. Con-Bul(sc), Bul-Gre and Aeg-Con. From there I can support myself into the Black.

Once in the Black I should be able to get Ankara and Sevastopol and quickly convoy armies north. This will aid in my dream of gaining St. Pete and Scandinavia.

I will wait for more feedback before making any moves. Doug, what is your game number and can you post a link to it?

Thanks

[DougJoe]

Doug...

You write

"These are solid moves, although, I agree with Doug, I'd rather have an army in BUL than a fleet. A different way to skin the cat could be to go for Galicia and Bulgaria in the spring: RUM-->BUL with 2 supports and Aegean-->CON to cut support (that also helps your pal Italy). You'll probably lose RUM to the Russian, but you'll have 4 armies surrounding it in the fall and you should be able to take it right back."

This is very sensible. By the way I've completed the building phase. Germany got two builds. A fleet in Kiel and an army in Berlin.

There is another advantage of an army in Bulgaria. One that has been weighing on my mind. I want to quickly gain a fleet in the Black Sea. Which means I need to get not only Con but a fleet in Bulgaria (nc). I can't use the sc to support into the Black. With an army in Bulgaria I can do a do-see-do. Con-Bul(sc), Bul-Gre and Aeg-Con. From there I can support myself into the Black.

Once in the Black I should be able to get Ankara and Sevastopol and quickly convoy armies north. This will aid in my dream of gaining St. Pete and Scandinavia.

I will wait for more feedback before making any moves. Doug, what is your game number and can you post a link to it?

Thanks

Actually, Trig wrote what you quoted (in blue), but that's OK. His thoughts on the spring turn are interesting, temporarily giving up Rum as a springboard to get Bul and then taking it back. I'm pretty sure I've done that trick before. Also, I went back through my Austrian solos and found only one where I actually needed a fleet in BLA. Not that you can't do that, but it may not be necessary and you may find those fleets being more useful for something else.

I suspect England will get StP before you do, but we'll see.

My game is https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429768

[georgefc3]

Thanks... I will try to keep that straight in the future.

I've checked out your game and "spectated" it.

I'm a little surprised. In your solo wins you moved against France early. In this game (Identify) you are moving Northward, towards Norway. Looks like Germany is in deep doo doo. I see you have both Norway and Denmark.

Ok, good start!

I will make my moves now.

[georgefc3]

Guys...

My moves were successful. I gained Bulgaria. Italy gained Smyrna, with the Turkish fleet there getting destroyed. Austria gains Rumania as expected but with a fleet. Turkey gains Sevastopol with his Black Sea fleet.

Interesting.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

In the fall it looks like I should be able to get both Constantinople and Rumania for a gain of two centers.

Germany has not made any gains in the North. It looks like everything is deadlocked over there. More good luck for me.

I am thinking this for the fall:

Support myself into Con. Support myself from Serbia into Rumania. Move Galician army to Ukraine.

Expect two builds in the fall.

Thoughts or comments?

[DougJoe]

Thanks... I will try to keep that straight in the future.

I've checked out your game and "spectated" it.

I'm a little surprised. In your solo wins you moved against France early. In this game (Identify) you are moving Northward, towards Norway. Looks like Germany is in deep doo doo. I see you have both Norway and Denmark.

Ok, good start!

I will make my moves now.

Yeah, I just decided this time to play the NTH/NWG opening. No logic behind it, just decided to do it differently this time.

Thoughts for F02:
I think that Russia is going to play the same moves, Swe->Nwy S StP. I also don't expect France or Germany to get a build and with Kie unoccupied, I am going to try for Sweden (Nwy S Den->Swe, Swe can't cut Nwy's support) and use NTH to protect Nwy, and move NWG to BAR. Edi will stay on the island as insurance for now, just in case France decides to do something weird with MAO. BAR can then put leverage on StP as needed and I can potentially get an army to St.P as opposed to a fleet. The build from Swe (and hopefully eventually StP) will more than likely be used in the assault on France. But we'll see what happens.

[DougJoe]

Guys...

My moves were successful. I gained Bulgaria. Italy gained Smyrna, with the Turkish fleet there getting destroyed. Austria gains Rumania as expected but with a fleet. Turkey gains Sevastopol with his Black Sea fleet.

Interesting.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

In the fall it looks like I should be able to get both Constantinople and Rumania for a gain of two centers.

Germany has not made any gains in the North. It looks like everything is deadlocked over there. More good luck for me.

I am thinking this for the fall:

Support myself into Con. Support myself from Serbia into Rumania. Move Galician army to Ukraine.

Expect two builds in the fall.

Thoughts or comments?

Seems like a workable plan.

[DougJoe]

Thanks... I will try to keep that straight in the future.

I've checked out your game and "spectated" it.

I'm a little surprised. In your solo wins you moved against France early. In this game (Identify) you are moving Northward, towards Norway. Looks like Germany is in deep doo doo. I see you have both Norway and Denmark.

Ok, good start!

I will make my moves now.

Yeah, I just decided this time to play the NTH/NWG opening. No logic behind it, just decided to do it differently this time.

Thoughts for F02:
I think that Russia is going to play the same moves, Swe->Nwy S StP. I also don't expect France or Germany to get a build and with Kie unoccupied, I am going to try for Sweden (Nwy S Den->Swe, Swe can't cut Nwy's support) and use NTH to protect Nwy, and move NWG to BAR. Edi will stay on the island as insurance for now, just in case France decides to do something weird with MAO. BAR can then put leverage on StP as needed and I can potentially get an army to St.P as opposed to a fleet. The build from Swe (and hopefully eventually StP) will more than likely be used in the assault on France. But we'll see what happens.

Now *that* was an interesting turn!

Russia decided to destroy the fleet in Sweden rather than retreat, which is great and St.P will fall next turn and be a build for 03. France is going hard to Italy and will get more than likely get at least one build next year. Germany did not tap Burgundy with Munich like I thought he might (I forgot about that when I said I didn't expect G to get a build) and so F/G bounced in Belgium again.

So what to build? I think it should be a fleet in London, and then we start thinking about attacking France? I don't know if it will be an attack on Bre this year or a move on Por the next... but I think I want to leave Germany alone for now?

[georgefc3]

Ok, that didn't work as I expected.

Turkey supported Russia in Rumania, so that move failed. Everything else worked.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

[georgefc3]

Only one build, I built in Vienna.

Still no dominant power in the North. Turkey has two units, one in Ankara, the other in (hard to spell) Sevastopol.

My planned moves

A Ukr - Mos
A Ser - Rum (with support from Budapest and Bulgaria)
A Vie - Gal
F Con - Bla
F Aeg - Con

Thoughts, comments or suggestions?

[DougJoe]

Ok, that didn't work as I expected.

Turkey supported Russia in Rumania, so that move failed. Everything else worked.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

That's *exactly* the kind of thing that I was thinking about before vis-a-vis R/T - the bots *do* sometimes support each other when then need to and to my thoughts it seems that R/T re-aligns itself faster than most.

Only one build, I built in Vienna.

Still no dominant power in the North. Turkey has two units, one in Ankara, the other in (hard to spell) Sevastopol.

My planned moves

A Ukr - Mos
A Ser - Rum (with support from Budapest and Bulgaria)
A Vie - Gal
F Con - Bla
F Aeg - Con

Thoughts, comments or suggestions?

An alternative I would consider is:
A Ukr->Sev (Leaves the army in Ukr to go after Sev in the fall if Sev bounces BLA, also, if Sev does not bounce BLA and War does not bounce Gal, that leaves Gal/Ukr to go after War while Rum/BLA takes Sev.)
A Bud->Rum
A Vie->Gal
A Ser S Bud->Rum (Serbia stays because it can defend both Tri and Gre, just in case, whereas Bud only defends Tri)
F Con->BLA (Mostly so the Russian fleet can't retreat to BLA)
A Bul can either S Bud-Rum or AEG->Con, but it must stay in place to prevent the retreat there from Rum. A self bounce with Bul/AEG would also work, but I think it's just safer to support Con in.

[Trigfea63]

Here are my thoughts on the three games.

First, George's game:

Ok, that didn't work as I expected.

Turkey supported Russia in Rumania, so that move failed. Everything else worked.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

That's *exactly* the kind of thing that I was thinking about before vis-a-vis R/T - the bots *do* sometimes support each other when then need to and to my thoughts it seems that R/T re-aligns itself faster than most.

Only one build, I built in Vienna.

Still no dominant power in the North. Turkey has two units, one in Ankara, the other in (hard to spell) Sevastopol.

My planned moves

A Ukr - Mos
A Ser - Rum (with support from Budapest and Bulgaria)
A Vie - Gal
F Con - Bla
F Aeg - Con

Thoughts, comments or suggestions?

An alternative I would consider is:
A Ukr->Sev (Leaves the army in Ukr to go after Sev in the fall if Sev bounces BLA, also, if Sev does not bounce BLA and War does not bounce Gal, that leaves Gal/Ukr to go after War while Rum/BLA takes Sev.)
A Bud->Rum
A Vie->Gal
A Ser S Bud->Rum (Serbia stays because it can defend both Tri and Gre, just in case, whereas Bud only defends Tri)
F Con->BLA (Mostly so the Russian fleet can't retreat to BLA)
A Bul can either S Bud-Rum or AEG->Con, but it must stay in place to prevent the retreat there from Rum. A self bounce with Bul/AEG would also work, but I think it's just safer to support Con in.

I mostly agree with your choices, and I like Doug's modifications, too.
**UKR-SEV vs UKR-MOS. I might lean toward UKR-MOS. Russia might move WAR-MOS to block. If he does, and if you don't move UKR-MOS, Russia ends up in MOS, and Germany probably ends up in WAR. I expect you don't want Germany taking WAR.
**SER-RUM vs BUD-RUM. I see the merits of both. SER-RUM is more aggressive, and positions you better for further offensive maneuvers. BUD-RUM is safer, in case Italy turns on you.

Next, Doug's game:

Now *that* was an interesting turn!

Russia decided to destroy the fleet in Sweden rather than retreat, which is great and St.P will fall next turn and be a build for 03. France is going hard to Italy and will get more than likely get at least one build next year. Germany did not tap Burgundy with Munich like I thought he might (I forgot about that when I said I didn't expect G to get a build) and so F/G bounced in Belgium again.

So what to build? I think it should be a fleet in London, and then we start thinking about attacking France? I don't know if it will be an attack on Bre this year or a move on Por the next... but I think I want to leave Germany alone for now?

You might also consider going after Germany next. Your units are well-positioned to descend on Germany, and they're pretty far out of position to take on France. Maybe SWE-->Baltic, EDI-->convoy to DEN to start? If you really want to look friendly to France, you could even move LON-->YOR.

Finally, my game:
It's not going great. I need to make riskier moves that have a chance of gaining me centers. I'm considering taking a gamble on trying to be friendly to France, hope he doesn't attack, and go after STP/Scandinavia:
NTH-->SKA
NWG-->NTH
LON S BRE-ENG
NWY-->SWE (will bounce)

In the fall NWY can take a stab at STP if that looks promising. SWE will also be a possibility, or maybe DEN. I'm halfway regretting the bounce in Belgium. It would be better to have the NTH fleet in SKA right now. But then France would have 6 units on the board, not 5 ...

I welcome your thoughts, I don't see any great courses of action. Running back to the Isles to defend against France before he attacks seems wasteful, and could become a self-fulfilling prophesy, given the way the bots think. It also means I have a tough time growing, and Germany probably comes after me once he's taken SWE. If I get squeezed between France and Germany it's game over.

[georgefc3]

Trig and Joe

I decided to go with my original moves. I am not worried about Italy turning on me. I am his friend and in my Austrian games where we have been allied he has never stabbed me. As you guys point out, this is a weakness of the bot programming. Trieste has been open from the beginning...

Well, I did get bounced in Moscow. Not from Warsaw but from St. Pete instead. England is now in St. Pete and the Russian unit retreated to Livonia.

Turkey did move to Con so I got bounced there. Not really a big problem. I can support myself there in the Spring and win Ankara next year.

Here is the current map.

By the way, my dreams of winning St. Pete and Scandinavia aren't looking so hot right now. Unless England gets stabbed.

Quick link, for your convenience:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

Thought, comments, suggestions?

[georgefc3]

My thoughts on next moves

Try for War, Sev and cover Tri and Gre.

Trig and Joe - how often do the bots stab? Is that a real possibility here?

If so I can cover Greece and Trieste...

[DougJoe]

My thoughts on next moves

Try for War, Sev and cover Tri and Gre.

Trig and Joe - how often do the bots stab? Is that a real possibility here?

If so I can cover Greece and Trieste...

Based on Italy's moves, I think you're ok here. Nap->TYS is pretty low key. I think you have the correct read on the bot, that he's docile.

Trig and Joe

I decided to go with my original moves. I am not worried about Italy turning on me. I am his friend and in my Austrian games where we have been allied he has never stabbed me. As you guys point out, this is a weakness of the bot programming. Trieste has been open from the beginning...

Well, I did get bounced in Moscow. Not from Warsaw but from St. Pete instead. England is now in St. Pete and the Russian unit retreated to Livonia.

Turkey did move to Con so I got bounced there. Not really a big problem. I can support myself there in the Spring and win Ankara next year.

Here is the current map.

By the way, my dreams of winning St. Pete and Scandinavia aren't looking so hot right now. Unless England gets stabbed.

Thought, comments, suggestions?

Nothing specific at this point, your position appears to be pretty good. What are you going to do with the two builds you should get this year?

[DougJoe]

Finally, my game:
It's not going great. I need to make riskier moves that have a chance of gaining me centers. I'm considering taking a gamble on trying to be friendly to France, hope he doesn't attack, and go after STP/Scandinavia:
NTH-->SKA
NWG-->NTH
LON S BRE-ENG
NWY-->SWE (will bounce)

In the fall NWY can take a stab at STP if that looks promising. SWE will also be a possibility, or maybe DEN. I'm halfway regretting the bounce in Belgium. It would be better to have the NTH fleet in SKA right now. But then France would have 6 units on the board, not 5 ...

I welcome your thoughts, I don't see any great courses of action. Running back to the Isles to defend against France before he attacks seems wasteful, and could become a self-fulfilling prophesy, given the way the bots think. It also means I have a tough time growing, and Germany probably comes after me once he's taken SWE. If I get squeezed between France and Germany it's game over.

Such is the paradox of the English.

I have seen bot Germanies in the past take Sweden and stop there as far as Scandinavia goes... but I'm not sure I have a good read on this bot Germany as to what he's trying to do. Sweden, I think, but the build in Berlin is confusing... going after Russia harder? France will most likely move into Bur, which (hopefully) will cause G to stop fussing around in Tyo and move back to Munich.

France doesn't appear to have anyone actively attacking him right now, which makes me nervous. It's hard to say right now if bouncing Bel was the right move as you don't know what France's 3rd build would have been in Mar. (I've never seen the bots waive a build, FYI). Is F Mar this turn better or worse than F Bre next? Would he have built an army there? Maybe seeing the build would have given you a better read on his intentions, I dunno.

At least you don't have Russia fighting in the north as well, and Norway is safe for a little while. You can take a potshot at St.P, but I'm guessing Russia will defend it from GoB instead of going for Sweden? No idea.

Personally, I'd be tempted to leave Germany alone and play NTH S Lon -> ENC, NWG->NAO, Nwy S Den-Swe. It's going to be a hard fight either way.