webdiplomacy.net

Posted: **Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:30 pm**

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:15 pm
But I will answer the question now that I have seen it asked:

If an omnipotent / omniscient God existed, he would know what he needed to do to change my mind, and he would easily be capable of doing it.

To date, either (a) he does not exist, or (b) he has not done it.

If it's B, is there anything else that would convince you?

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:17 am**

Aha, Fluminator is back from his November holidays and this thread has come back to life.

So, premise (b) of my above statement. Well, this actually assumes quite a few things, such that:

1. God exists,
2. God is omnipotent and omniscient,
3. God loves me,
4. God is aware I do not believe he exists,
5. God has not made any effort to prove to me that he exists.

In that situation, literally, we must conclude that God does not want me to believe that he exists. Why must we conclude that? Because an omnipotent God that wants me to believe in him would easily be able to persuade me to believe - or else he is not omnipotent.

Either he has chosen not to reveal himself to me, or he is not omnipotent, or he does not exist.

So, all of that being the case, no. There is nothing else that would convince me of the existence of an omnipotent God who is deliberately using his limitless powers to prevent me from perceiving of him. How could I possibly be convinced in that situation? The idea is impossible.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:17 pm**

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:17 am
Either he has chosen not to reveal himself to me, or he is not omnipotent, or he does not exist.

In what way would it be advantageous to God for you to know He exists? There must be the possibility of doubt for faith to have any meaning. There has to be the possibility of God's non existence for humanity to have any freedom. If everyone lived with complete certainty that God exists, the absolute knowledge that they will be judged, then they would spend their lives as slaves to the holy book. There would be no difference between good and bad as everyone would have to follow the same path regardless.

The lack of certainty, the existence of doubt gives us the freedom to stray, and those who devote themselves to following the teachings of God do some because they want to. Those who wish to do good to others do so because it feels right.

If God wanted to make a universe in which everyone lives for 70 years exactly, during which time they wake up, sing hymns, pray, drink water and eat fruits day after day like robotic monks, then He could have done so. And it would be absolutely pointless and a very pale reflection of the universe as we experience it.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:32 pm**

This discussion reminds me of

Blaise Pascal wrote: There is enough light for those who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition.

The purpose of this setup is qualification:

In the 3rd chapter of his Gospel, John wrote: 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:42 pm**

Fundamental misunderstanding of mathematics

"infinities" are not all equal

(E.g., there are infinite numbers, and there are infinite odd numbers - are they the same?)

Hence, there is no correlation between the "always existed" infinite time and the "everything that can happen" infinite possibilities

Of course, the more valuable argument is seen in some later comments -

If the de facto "god" of this "proof" has no verifiable impact on our lives, then debating whether it exists has no more value than the "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" query - pointless, unimportant and silly

If you want to believe in a god merely because it is hypothetically possible that one exists among the countless possibilities, knock yourself out!

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:27 pm**

I just realised that someone may find himself in the aforementioned situation that he is afraid to come to the light. I don't want to leave you to despair; people often find themselves in situations that are impossible - for them:

In the beginning of his 8th chapter, Jeremiah wrote: THE word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

I recollect also that professional potters store the shards of vessels that the oven broke for material to their best pottery.

The Bible is full of characters that couldn't imagine what God put them through to prepare them for their life.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:35 pm**

A more vivid way of showing the utter pointlessness of this argument is:

If we accept the premise that "everything that can possibly happen has happened" then I posit the following must have happened:

There was a god, who was foolish and created artificial intelligence which soon surpassed god's own capabilities, and which 3-D printed a newer, more powerful god, which then murdered the first god before malfunctioning and destroying the AI, then committed suicide, leaving the universe as we now find it, with no god.

If you are truly committed to the notion that "everything that can possibly happen has happened" then you must admit with absolute certainty that this explanation of the universe is true

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:38 pm**

aardvarkarmy wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:35 pm
A more vivid way of showing the utter pointlessness of this argument is:

If we accept the premise that "everything that can possibly happen has happened" then I posit the following must have happened:

There was a god, who was foolish and created artificial intelligence which soon surpassed god's own capabilities, and which 3-D printed a newer, more powerful god, which then murdered the first god before malfunctioning and destroying the AI, then committed suicide, leaving the universe as we now find it, with no god.

If you are truly committed to the notion that "everything that can possibly happen has happened" then you must admit with absolute certainty that this explanation of the universe is true

It depends on whether you would describe the above happening as "possible".

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:52 pm**

Octavious wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:17 pm
If God wanted to make a universe in which everyone lives for 70 years exactly, during which time they wake up, sing hymns, pray, drink water and eat fruits day after day like robotic monks, then He could have done so. And it would be absolutely pointless and a very pale reflection of the universe as we experience it.

I think the argument that a loving God meticulously and perfectly designed a world of unpredictable pain, suffering, mutilation and death because otherwise things would be a bit boring, is frankly fucked up.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:53 pm**

To me that's like saying it's ok to occasionally punch or stab your loved ones because that makes their lives more interesting.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:10 pm**

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:38 pm

aardvarkarmy wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:35 pm
A more vivid way of showing the utter pointlessness of this argument is:

If we accept the premise that "everything that can possibly happen has happened" then I posit the following must have happened:

There was a god, who was foolish and created artificial intelligence which soon surpassed god's own capabilities, and which 3-D printed a newer, more powerful god, which then murdered the first god before malfunctioning and destroying the AI, then committed suicide, leaving the universe as we now find it, with no god.

If you are truly committed to the notion that "everything that can possibly happen has happened" then you must admit with absolute certainty that this explanation of the universe is true
It depends on whether you would describe the above happening as "possible".

Well, if you define the existence of a god as "possible", I begin with that as my first premise

If you further posit that such a god might be omnipent, then everything else in my scenario flows unobstructed from that premise - don't believers like to say the "all things are possible with god"?

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:14 pm**

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:52 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:17 pm
If God wanted to make a universe in which everyone lives for 70 years exactly, during which time they wake up, sing hymns, pray, drink water and eat fruits day after day like robotic monks, then He could have done so. And it would be absolutely pointless and a very pale reflection of the universe as we experience it.
I think the argument that a loving God meticulously and perfectly designed a world of unpredictable pain, suffering, mutilation and death because otherwise things would be a bit boring, is frankly fucked up.

precisely correct. What we can all see with our own eyes in this world utterly obviates the possibility of a god who is both omnipotent and all-good. Any god that exists is either a pathetic weakling or is a vicious and sadistic monster.

I'm completely comfortable believing in neither

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:50 pm**

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:17 am
Aha, Fluminator is back from his November holidays and this thread has come back to life.

So, premise (b) of my above statement. Well, this actually assumes quite a few things, such that:

1. God exists,
2. God is omnipotent and omniscient,
3. God loves me,
4. God is aware I do not believe he exists,
5. God has not made any effort to prove to me that he exists.

In that situation, literally, we must conclude that God does not want me to believe that he exists. Why must we conclude that? Because an omnipotent God that wants me to believe in him would easily be able to persuade me to believe - or else he is not omnipotent.

Either he has chosen not to reveal himself to me, or he is not omnipotent, or he does not exist.

So, all of that being the case, no. There is nothing else that would convince me of the existence of an omnipotent God who is deliberately using his limitless powers to prevent me from perceiving of him. How could I possibly be convinced in that situation? The idea is impossible.

I wish it was a vacation lol. I was moving which is always fun in the winter.

Ok we can assume God exists and we can assume it is omnipotent and omniscient. If it makes you feel better we can assume this God loves you too. If those premises are true than God would know you don't believe in God's existence.

Your premise 5 still doesn't necessarily come from that. There are still a couple possibilities.
It could be
A. God has given you free will and doesn't want to force your belief in Him (which is a loving thing to do imo)
B. You haven't been convinced *yet* and it could still be coming later. Maybe if God is real there is a reason to have you experience a bit of life without the knowledge.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:53 pm**

Octavious wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:17 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:17 am
Either he has chosen not to reveal himself to me, or he is not omnipotent, or he does not exist.
In what way would it be advantageous to God for you to know He exists? There must be the possibility of doubt for faith to have any meaning. There has to be the possibility of God's non existence for humanity to have any freedom. If everyone lived with complete certainty that God exists, the absolute knowledge that they will be judged, then they would spend their lives as slaves to the holy book. There would be no difference between good and bad as everyone would have to follow the same path regardless.

The lack of certainty, the existence of doubt gives us the freedom to stray, and those who devote themselves to following the teachings of God do some because they want to. Those who wish to do good to others do so because it feels right.

If God wanted to make a universe in which everyone lives for 70 years exactly, during which time they wake up, sing hymns, pray, drink water and eat fruits day after day like robotic monks, then He could have done so. And it would be absolutely pointless and a very pale reflection of the universe as we experience it.

That's an interesting take.
If God set up a world like in Dungeon's and Dragon's where God is basically an NPC you can interact with, it kind of takes away any free will in how you live and ruins the whole point.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:56 pm**

aardvarkarmy wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:35 pm
A more vivid way of showing the utter pointlessness of this argument is:

If we accept the premise that "everything that can possibly happen has happened" then I posit the following must have happened:

There was a god, who was foolish and created artificial intelligence which soon surpassed god's own capabilities, and which 3-D printed a newer, more powerful god, which then murdered the first god before malfunctioning and destroying the AI, then committed suicide, leaving the universe as we now find it, with no god.

If you are truly committed to the notion that "everything that can possibly happen has happened" then you must admit with absolute certainty that this explanation of the universe is true

Fair enough haha. That's why I don't believe in the infinite spacetime theory in the first place because after an infinite amount of time it would have been destroyed by now.

I believe the second premise, not the first, but the first was to get ahead of the atheists saying I can't assume spacetime had a beginning.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:57 pm**

Fluminator wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:56 pm

aardvarkarmy wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:35 pm
A more vivid way of showing the utter pointlessness of this argument is:

If we accept the premise that "everything that can possibly happen has happened" then I posit the following must have happened:

There was a god, who was foolish and created artificial intelligence which soon surpassed god's own capabilities, and which 3-D printed a newer, more powerful god, which then murdered the first god before malfunctioning and destroying the AI, then committed suicide, leaving the universe as we now find it, with no god.

If you are truly committed to the notion that "everything that can possibly happen has happened" then you must admit with absolute certainty that this explanation of the universe is true
Fair enough haha. That's why I don't believe in the infinite spacetime theory in the first place because after an infinite amount of time it would have been destroyed by now.

I believe the second premise, not the first, but the first was to get ahead of the atheists saying I can't assume spacetime had a beginning.

So, here is the crux of the issue -

OF COURSE "it is possible that god exists."

An atheist who grounds their views in evidence-based reason will always acknowledge the possibility of being wrong. Show me proof and I'll sign on.

Because an atheist who grounds their views in evidence-based reason will NEVER assert something as an absolute immovable truth without a damn good foundation of verifiable evidence.

Believers, on the other hand, often attempt to pigeon-hole their views into the vocabulary of evidence-based reason, but it is a definitionally impossible task: "faith" is - by definition - accepting a position without sufficient evidence.

A real believe can NEVER acknowledge that "it is possible that god does not exist", much less acknowledge that the "god of the gaps" in our understanding is shrinking to minuscule proportions.

Because the day a believer accepts that a god is not necessary for understanding anything about our world or about ourselves, that is the day "faith" dies

Posted: **Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:37 am**

Fluminator wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:50 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:17 am
Aha, Fluminator is back from his November holidays and this thread has come back to life.

So, premise (b) of my above statement. Well, this actually assumes quite a few things, such that:

<Things>

I wish it was a vacation lol. I was moving which is always fun in the winter.

Your premise 5 still doesn't necessarily come from that. There are still a couple possibilities.
It could be
A. God has given you free will and doesn't want to force your belief in Him (which is a loving thing to do imo)
B. You haven't been convinced *yet* and it could still be coming later. Maybe if God is real there is a reason to have you experience a bit of life without the knowledge.

If it's A: Then my lack of belief in God is rational, and he cannot condemn me to hell because of it.

If it's B: Well I don't know but it seems unlitkely.

Posted: **Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:19 am**

Fluminator wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:50 pm
God has given you free will and doesn't want to force your belief in Him (which is a loving thing to do imo)

Just the other day I was roasting people alive and felt so at peace with myself knowing that I was doing something so loving.

After all, I had given them free will at one point in the past to avoid me.

Posted: **Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:33 am**

Yes, to paraphrase George Carlin, when you ponder the possibility that god CREATED a special place to punish you for your transgressions with an eternity of agony and fire and torment and torture and fear and horror and grief and suffering and misery... it's only because he loves you so deeply

Posted: **Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:36 am**

Why are you all always so desperate to link God with hell lol. Are you afraid to face the idea of God on its own so you bring in hell to make it easier to argue against?

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