Proof God is real

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Re: Proof God is real

#61 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:03 pm

JECE wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:27 pm
1. Satan the deceiver, who was created by God the omnipotent in order to more efficiently trick sinners into getting banished to the eternal fires of Hell. Ring a bell?
2. Humbug. You are the spawn of Satan, your parents' kid and Satan Himself, all three at the same time. There is no contradiction.
3. You need evidence that Satan is rooted in black magic occultism? Heresy!
1. I think that type of Satan is logically contradictory to God, because if God wanted people to go to hell, God would just send people there.
2. I'd need evidence that my parents were contacted by Satan to have itself, and I'd need evidence I have satanic powers that come from it to be swayed.
3. lol

I will note that it is interesting you can't respond with a single piece of hypothetical evidence that would make you change your mind. It makes it an unfalsifiable belief.

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Re: Proof God is real

#62 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:24 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:03 pm
My final answers to your questions respectfully are
1. Correct
2. Even if God cared about you, why is it necessary he has you believe him?
1. If I'm correct that you were talking about the Christian notion of God in your OP, why did you criticise me for correctly making that assumption?

2. If (a) he is kind and loving, and (b) believing in him is the only way to be saved from damnation, then surely he would want me to believe?
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Re: Proof God is real

#63 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:32 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:03 pm

Over the past 5 years we've engaged on religion or god many many times, and I'm pretty confident every time I've ask you to stop assuming what I believe because I DON'T believe in what most Christians believe. I don't get why you are so desperate to put beliefs on me that I don't have? Are you so desperate to attack Christians that any vague mention of religion sends you into a rage? I am confident I've clarified this with you at least 10+ times over the years and every time you completely ignore me and continue to strawman me, and this last post is the final straw in my attempts to engage with you. I am curious if you've ever even read a single one of my posts?
Ok look, I'm sorry if I make incorrect assumptions. Sometimes you aren't as clear as you think you are, and I feel I have to make an assumption or else I can't respond at all because you're not making much sense. I also find you, in particular, very difficult to read because you seem to flip from trolling to sincerity with only the slightest changes in tone.

Clearly, I do not understand your beliefs. I don't understand mainstream Christian beliefs, never mind the many variants of those, because they are founded on nonsensical concepts that I cannot conceive of on a basic level.
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Re: Proof God is real

#64 Post by JECE » Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:30 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:03 pm
JECE wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:27 pm
1. Satan the deceiver, who was created by God the omnipotent in order to more efficiently trick sinners into getting banished to the eternal fires of Hell. Ring a bell?
2. Humbug. You are the spawn of Satan, your parents' kid and Satan Himself, all three at the same time. There is no contradiction.
3. You need evidence that Satan is rooted in black magic occultism? Heresy!
1. I think that type of Satan is logically contradictory to God, because if God wanted people to go to hell, God would just send people there.
2. I'd need evidence that my parents were contacted by Satan to have itself, and I'd need evidence I have satanic powers that come from it to be swayed.
3. lol

I will note that it is interesting you can't respond with a single piece of hypothetical evidence that would make you change your mind. It makes it an unfalsifiable belief.
1. I don't see the contradiction. Through that type of Satan, God does just send people there.

2. I don't know. Try walking on water or something.

3. You can't just invert your belief and claim that the inverse is equally unfalsifiable. I mean, I guess that 'Charon is the unicorn shepherd of heaven.' is just as unfalsifiable as 'There is no such thing as a unicorn shepherd of heaven.', and for that matter, just as unfalsifiable as the Fluminatoristically "radical" idea that 'Unicorn shepherds of heaven are impossible.' But remember what my position really is (I did note, by the way, that you likewise never responded to this):
JECE wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:00 pm
For me, and probably for many other nonbelievers, it's even a step further [than gods being something that we don't believe exist]. While I do consider myself an atheist, it's technically not the case that I don't believe that gods exist, since the very words gods, God, fairies etc. have no meaning to me.
In that context, I can of course imagine nothing that would challenge my lack of belief in your God. This lack of imagination on my part does not signify that I hold an unfalsifiable belief.
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Re: Proof God is real

#65 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:34 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:24 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:03 pm
My final answers to your questions respectfully are
1. Correct
2. Even if God cared about you, why is it necessary he has you believe him?
1. If I'm correct that you were talking about the Christian notion of God in your OP, why did you criticise me for correctly making that assumption?

2. If (a) he is kind and loving, and (b) believing in him is the only way to be saved from damnation, then surely he would want me to believe?
1. You asked,
"You did not have the Christian / Hebrew notion of God in mind?

You were only referring, in very general terms, to the general concept of a deity?"
And I said correct. And you go "Aha so you were talking about Christian God"
Are you trolling me as payback for the time I trolled you about circumcision or whatever? Anyway, pretend I reposted my long post here yet again, but update the number of times I've told you to be one higher again.

2. Tell me more about this part (b)? That sounds kind of scary. I would agree if you attach that out of the blue sure, yeah.

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Re: Proof God is real

#66 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:59 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:34 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:24 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:03 pm
My final answers to your questions respectfully are
1. Correct
2. Even if God cared about you, why is it necessary he has you believe him?
1. If I'm correct that you were talking about the Christian notion of God in your OP, why did you criticise me for correctly making that assumption?

2. If (a) he is kind and loving, and (b) believing in him is the only way to be saved from damnation, then surely he would want me to believe?
1. You asked,
"You did not have the Christian / Hebrew notion of God in mind?

You were only referring, in very general terms, to the general concept of a deity?"
And I said correct. And you go "Aha so you were talking about Christian God"
Are you trolling me as payback for the time I trolled you about circumcision or whatever? Anyway, pretend I reposted my long post here yet again, but update the number of times I've told you to be one higher again.
No I'm not trolling you, sorry. I misunderstood which part of the statement you were saying was correct. I wouldn't use capital "G" in "God" unless I was referring to that specific notion of "God". You'd avoid this kind of confusion in future if you said "god" or "gods".
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:34 pm
2. Tell me more about this part (b)? That sounds kind of scary. I would agree if you attach that out of the blue sure, yeah.
That's what Christians believe, I think, isn't it? You have to believe in God and accept Christ as your saviour or you will burn in hell for all eternity? No?

But I accept your clarification that you are not a Christian so, with that clarified, I accept that you do not believe such a thing.
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Re: Proof God is real

#67 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:02 pm

I'm not ignoring you Kalel, I'll get to you soon.
JECE wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:30 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:03 pm
JECE wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:27 pm
1. Satan the deceiver, who was created by God the omnipotent in order to more efficiently trick sinners into getting banished to the eternal fires of Hell. Ring a bell?
2. Humbug. You are the spawn of Satan, your parents' kid and Satan Himself, all three at the same time. There is no contradiction.
3. You need evidence that Satan is rooted in black magic occultism? Heresy!
1. I think that type of Satan is logically contradictory to God, because if God wanted people to go to hell, God would just send people there.
2. I'd need evidence that my parents were contacted by Satan to have itself, and I'd need evidence I have satanic powers that come from it to be swayed.
3. lol

I will note that it is interesting you can't respond with a single piece of hypothetical evidence that would make you change your mind. It makes it an unfalsifiable belief.
1. I don't see the contradiction. Through that type of Satan, God does just send people there.

2. I don't know. Try walking on water or something.

3. You can't just invert your belief and claim that the inverse is equally unfalsifiable. I mean, I guess that 'Charon is the unicorn shepherd of heaven.' is just as unfalsifiable as 'There is no such thing as a unicorn shepherd of heaven.', and for that matter, just as unfalsifiable as the Fluminatoristically "radical" idea that 'Unicorn shepherds of heaven are impossible.' But remember what my position really is (I did note, by the way, that you likewise never responded to this):
JECE wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:00 pm
For me, and probably for many other nonbelievers, it's even a step further [than gods being something that we don't believe exist]. While I do consider myself an atheist, it's technically not the case that I don't believe that gods exist, since the very words gods, God, fairies etc. have no meaning to me.
In that context, I can of course imagine nothing that would challenge my lack of belief in your God. This lack of imagination on my part does not signify that I hold an unfalsifiable belief.
1. Ok, if we go by that, I will say I don't believe that, but you can help convince me if you give me evidence of people who travelled to hell and report back with mostly consistent stories. If that's true I'd consider changing my mind.

2. I'm a lifeguard and it doesn't work. RIP

3. All I asked is for something that might change your mind so I can work on looking into it. Flash had no problem giving an example (he said look into the cause and effects of prayer). I don't get why you're so rustled lol. This isn't a trick question or a gotcha. I don't follow what equivalency you're trying to make.
If - as you admit - nothing you can imagine will hypothetically change your mind, it's kind of a conversation ender.
I guess you can continue to try to poke holes at my beliefs which is fine, but don't be confused that I was trying to figure out if anything would hypothetically change your mind. And I appreciate the honesty there isn't so I don't have to waste time lol.

What do you want me to say to your post I never responded to? If the words have no meaning to you so be it? Were you asking for a definition?

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Re: Proof God is real

#68 Post by JECE » Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:05 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:02 pm
What do you want me to say to your post I never responded to? If the words have no meaning to you so be it? Were you asking for a definition?
Didn't you already give a definition for your God at some point? I'm not asking you to say anything in particular. But if the word has no meaning for me, it's odd that you would keep trying to get me to question whether gods exist.
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Re: Proof God is real

#69 Post by JECE » Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:09 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:02 pm
JECE wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:30 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:03 pm
1. I think that type of Satan is logically contradictory to God, because if God wanted people to go to hell, God would just send people there.
1. I don't see the contradiction. Through that type of Satan, God does just send people there.
1. Ok, if we go by that, I will say I don't believe that, but you can help convince me if you give me evidence of people who travelled to hell and report back with mostly consistent stories. If that's true I'd consider changing my mind.
Can't you ask one of your angel friends to take a look for you?
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Re: Proof God is real

#70 Post by Fluminator » Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:37 pm

KalelChase wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:45 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:12 pm
Haha, I wouldn't make this thread if I didn't enjoy these discussions.
I agree there are three distinct things when talking about Christianity
1. Is there a God
2. Does God have the attributes of the Judeo-Christian God
3. Is this God worth worshipping

And each one is a very separate issue.
There's not much point in talking about 2 or 3 unless we assume the statements above it are true.

In statement 1 the definition is important. When we talk about God, most people assume we're talking about a very specific God (usually Christian or Muslim in the west). But premise one is only interested in if there's a higher power.
Considering you said you don't believe there's enough evidence to believe in visiting ETs, ghosts, or higher spiritual realm I'm going to assume you don't believe in any higher power. (correct me if that's wrong)

Maybe some opener questions so I understand you a bit more.

What's your opinion on miracles? Have you ever read "Miracles" by Craig Keener?

Do you believe it's possible very advanced and powerful aliens exist within our universe. (Not asking if they've ever interacted with our planet)

What's your opinion on a story like this? https://thepulse.one/2021/08/22/biologi ... -of-twins/
(Extrasensory perception seems to be real in some cases)
My Answers/FU Questions
Agreed let's focus on #1. Higher Power is fine as a label - but to be more specific I think we should be using a Highest Power. Can we agree that what we would define as a H.P. is a free-willed agent with power to create the (an) universe (and any subset of events lower than that), or if ever proven universes/multi-verse?

My position is that I don't believe that the existence of a H.P. has met it's burden of proof.

Can we agree that a miracle is an event that seemingly breaks our current understanding of the the laws of science (physics/chemistry/etc.)? It is not something that could occur but is really, really unlikely. If agreed, then unless it happens frequently enough to measure then we can't demonstrate that it exists to a level that we should believe in it. Also, if it did happen in a way that we could confirm and measure some aspect of it that would in no way point to a divine source. The simpler answer is that something is going on that we don't understand and it's worth more investigation. - Never read the book.

*** I think off topic, but going to answer for the sake of completeness ***

I am unfamiliar with The Pulse, but from what I can see the website & the article you link to is full of conspiracy theories and pseudoscience, neither of which is anything to base a belief on. It mixes very layman terms around quantum physics with 'spirituality'. I think this is a whole 'nother can of worms and I think it will dilute our conversation so I'm going to set it down.

On your claim about ESP being 'real in some cases', I'd love a link to a peer-reviewed paper on a double-blind test that was published in reputable journal.

The jury's still out on very advanced and powerful aliens existing in our universe. I do not believe they exist as of yet, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. I think it's possible, but I also think it's possible that we're the first, or we're the only (which would be very sad, but is certainly an option). Unfortunately we only have one data point on a life generating/sustaining environment so there's not much to base a conclusion on. I'm willing to throw aliens and ghost in the conversation, but only as a benchmark of how gullible or skeptical people are.

*** End of tangent ***

My Questions for you.
A. What do you think, by a rough percentage, the chances are that there is a H.P.? 99.999%... 100%?

B. What is the best external evidence you think demonstrates the existence of a H.P.? By external I mean something that you see/experience that is transferable to my experience... i.e. I can do my own test and get the same compelling results?

C. What is the best internal/personal experience you think points to the existence of a H.P.? I'd love to hear about a moment or moments of revelation that solidified your belief to the % certainty above.

Thanks for engaging. I keep talking to people to find that next level of compelling evidence on this topic and haven't found anything new that isn't wishful thinking (I just want it to be true), or lame (what if you're wrong), in over a decade.
I tried to keep this short and failed lol.

For questions A.
Complete tangent on how I got to that number, but I got 79%. But the chance it is a higher power that takes interest in humans is less.
In terms of H.P. behind this universe it’s really hard to give an exact percentage because I have such a small picture of existence. I’d say I’m about 70% certain that I’ve experienced things in my life that were caused by a non-human conscious higher power. 25% that it’s a higher impersonal force that gives off the appearance of intelligence. And then 5% it was all coincidence or group hallucinations or stuff like that. I’d probably dop that 5% to a 1% when I account for other people’s experiences and stories I’ve heard over the years.
But that non-human higher power doesn’t necessarily have to be the creator of the universe behind it. It could be something within the universe still.

I’d give it a 1% chance that our universe has always existed with our current understanding of linear time. If there was an infinite amount of time before now, it doesn’t make sense and breaks down. Which means to me our universe or time originated from something outside of spacetime. So 99% chance something outside of spacetime created our universe.

I’d give it an 80% chance that whatever initiated our universe and its timeline had consciousness making it fit our definition. If we consider that anything outside of time is eternal and never changes, the only thing that I know of right now that could initiate something outside of time is a consciousness. If it didn’t have a consciousness. the atemporal thing could never decide to do anything, it’s at steady state. And I know consciousness exists here so I don’t think it’s a massive leap that maybe something outside of our universe has it too. (And I’ve seen consciousness create worlds when I sleep in my dream, so I can imagine a much more powerful consciousness creating even more intricate worlds). The extra 20% is hopefully accounting for my lack of imagination to picture an atemporal non-conscious entity with agency.

So maybe I’d put it at 79%, but odds are lower that it interferes in the effect of humans and that what people mistake for the Highest Power is just advanced beings we don’t understand.
B. As you alluded to in your answer about miracles, the point of miracles and supernatural experiences is they AREN’T reproducible and they’re extraordinary events. If they were consistent and reproducible, that would point to evidence against it being divine and just some natural law or force. But I would recommend you research cases of previous miracles or asking religious people for any personal miracles they experiences and see how convincing they are. That was partly why I asked you about miracles.

To transfer to you, I’d recommend praying for things that can’t be explained by placebo. What’s the worst that will happen if it fails? Obviously if it's something like "have this couch levitate" or "help me win the lottery" I suspect you won't have much luck.

C. I've had dealings with the occult world that were pretty convincing to me that there are higher powers (not necessarily Highest Power). I know it makes me sound crazy or superstitious. I would rule off all my experiences as hallucinations if I wasn't with other people at the time who have the same memories. (I've considered group hallucination, or an elaborate practical joke but both were less likely when I account for similar stories from other people I hear)
I've seen a couple miraculous healings. Both my best friend and mom received prayer that instantly fixed their vision and chest pains respectively. Placebo was not adequate to me.

Followup to some of my questions, The ESP stuff I was curious on because you mentioned a lot of things in that genre as not believing there was enough evidence for.
ESP is usually the most basic form of that world and if you accept it as a scientific thing it might be a reasonable source of knowledge. I might come back to that later.

I like bringing up aliens because there are a lot of people who are okay with advanced aliens but not God, and it always confused me, but it looks like you're pretty consistent there. This is too long so I'll just stop this post here though haha
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Re: Proof God is real

#71 Post by JECE » Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:53 pm

What sort of consciousness or agency do you need to go KA-BOOM?
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Re: Proof God is real

#72 Post by Fluminator » Thu Oct 27, 2022 12:25 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:59 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:34 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:24 pm


1. If I'm correct that you were talking about the Christian notion of God in your OP, why did you criticise me for correctly making that assumption?

2. If (a) he is kind and loving, and (b) believing in him is the only way to be saved from damnation, then surely he would want me to believe?
1. You asked,
"You did not have the Christian / Hebrew notion of God in mind?

You were only referring, in very general terms, to the general concept of a deity?"
And I said correct. And you go "Aha so you were talking about Christian God"
Are you trolling me as payback for the time I trolled you about circumcision or whatever? Anyway, pretend I reposted my long post here yet again, but update the number of times I've told you to be one higher again.
No I'm not trolling you, sorry. I misunderstood which part of the statement you were saying was correct. I wouldn't use capital "G" in "God" unless I was referring to that specific notion of "God". You'd avoid this kind of confusion in future if you said "god" or "gods".
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:34 pm
2. Tell me more about this part (b)? That sounds kind of scary. I would agree if you attach that out of the blue sure, yeah.
That's what Christians believe, I think, isn't it? You have to believe in God and accept Christ as your saviour or you will burn in hell for all eternity? No?

But I accept your clarification that you are not a Christian so, with that clarified, I accept that you do not believe such a thing.
Understood. How about I'll use this going forward,
Yahweh - Jewish deity
Elohim - Christian deity
God - generic Monotheistic Highest Power deity
god - generic pagan polytheistic deity.

There are 3 main dominant thoughts in Christianity on your question about them - Universalists, Inclusivists, and Exclusivists.

Universalist was the most popular Christian view from about 100 A.D to 400 A.D. around the time of Augustine I believe. (Don't know exactly when it transitioned, as the church got more political power, things switched more and more.)
Universalists believed that everyone will eventually go to heaven, but that there might be a purgatory stage for the bad ones because justice still needs to happen. They don't believe that the punishment is worthy of eternal damnation however. Probably the two most famous early church fathers who believed this were Origen and Athanasius. This view is a lot less popular now in modern Christianity. Quite a few Gnostic Christians I know still hold to this, and more liberal Christians from mainline sects.

Inclusivism is the belief that the Christian God will save people (through Jesus) who don't necessarily know anything about theology or religion. Essentially the person could be a Christian without knowing it. This would include many people in other religions. C.S. Lewis (author of Narnia) is probably the most famous recent Christian who holds to this. Maybe Billy Graham would be more famous (I don't know how well known he is outside of Protestant circles). This view is a lot more common among modern Catholics and mainline Protestants. Evangelical Protestants usually disagree with this. I don't know enough about Eastern Orthodox to get a good pulse on them. They still believe some people are not saved.

Exclusivists are Christians who believe you have to know who God and Jesus are to be saved. These are most common in Protestant Evangelical circles. You could probably further break this group into 2 between Calvinists and Arminians. Calvinists believe that the Christian God only makes Himself known to a select few to be set apart, and that everyone else will never be saved or believe due to a preordained election process. Arminians believe everyone has a chance of learning and that it is imperative that mission trips and evangelizin happens to save as many people from hell forever.

There's also a sizable sect in Christianity who don't believe in hell but annihilationist which is the belief that unbelievers no longer exist instead of an eternal torture chamber.

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Re: Proof God is real

#73 Post by Fluminator » Thu Oct 27, 2022 12:28 am

JECE wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:53 pm
What sort of consciousness or agency do you need to go KA-BOOM?
This much
|----------------------------------------------|

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Re: Proof God is real

#74 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:58 pm

@Flum:

Which sort of god do you believe in?

Why do you think it is important to prove to us that he is real?

Why do you think you are having such a hard time proving it?
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Re: Proof God is real

#75 Post by Fluminator » Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:26 pm

1. I believe in a god who's the perfect summation of existence. There can only be one distinct perfect thing.
2. Because it's fun to try to figure this stuff out as a hobby. Not a whole lot else going on in this forum, and politics is way too depressing right now.
3. If it was easy, this debate would have been resolved 10,000+ years ago.

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Re: Proof God is real

#76 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Oct 27, 2022 8:18 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:26 pm
I believe in a god who's the perfect summation of existence. There can only be one distinct perfect thing.
Therefore you believe that God cannot create perfect things, and is therefore not omnipotent?
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Re: Proof God is real

#77 Post by Fluminator » Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:22 am

God can't create a rock so big it can't be moved.
God couldn't create a married bachelor.
God couldn't create a limited perfect being.

If those things result in God not being omnipotent, then no, God isn't omnipotent.

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Re: Proof God is real

#78 Post by JECE » Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:48 am

Fluminator wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:22 am
God can't create a rock so big it can't be moved.
God couldn't create a married bachelor.
God couldn't create a limited perfect being.

If those things result in God not being omnipotent, then no, God isn't omnipotent.
God must not be very imaginative, then. A rock so big it can't be moved, a married bachelor and a limited perfect being all seem perfectly possible to me.
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Fluminator
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Re: Proof God is real

#79 Post by Fluminator » Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:38 am

Could you imagine a square circle?

PRINCE WILLIAM
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Re: Proof God is real

#80 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:51 am

Fluminator, Origenism was condemned by the ecumenical synods (he was not excommunicated though because he had died before the synod), and Augustine's opinion was treated as such until very later when Catholic Church found it useful to sell forgiveness for a price. East Orthodox Church, while holding Augustine as a saint, denies this theological view. Most dogmas do.

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