Proof God is real

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Fluminator
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Proof God is real

#1 Post by Fluminator » Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm

1. If the universe always existed, everything possible has happened.
2. It is possible God exists.
3. Therefore God has happened.

Checkmate atheists.

(alternate if you don't believe premise 1)

1. If the universe had a beginning, something outside of time triggered it.
2. The atemporal thing is by all practical purposes a God.
3. Therefore God

Checkmate atheists again

locust
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Re: Proof God is real

#2 Post by locust » Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:25 am

1. If the egg had a beginning, something outside of the egg triggered it.
2. The non-egg thing is by all practical purposes a God.
3. Therefore God is a chicken.
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Doom427
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Re: Proof to Revolutionize the World

#3 Post by Doom427 » Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:40 am

1. If it cannot hatch from its shell, the chick will die without ever truly being born.
2. We are the chick; the world is our egg.
3. If we don't break the world's shell, we will die without truly being born.
4. Smash the world's shell, for the Revolution of the World.
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Re: Proof God is real

#4 Post by Bonatogether » Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:49 am

Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm
1. If the universe always existed, everything possible has happened.
2. It is possible i did ur mom
3. Therefore i did ur mom
ftfy
5

JECE
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Re: Proof God is real

#5 Post by JECE » Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:27 am

1
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Re: Proof God is real

#6 Post by French_boi » Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:56 am

Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm
1. If the universe always existed, everything possible has happened.
2. It is possible God exists.
3. Therefore God has happened.

Checkmate atheists.

(alternate if you don't believe premise 1)

1. If the universe had a beginning, something outside of time triggered it.
2. The atemporal thing is by all practical purposes a God.
3. Therefore God

Checkmate atheists again
Premise one is fundamentally flawed. You cannot assume that everything possible has happened - nor can you assume it to be possible for God to exist. It is also a little silly to think the universe must have had a beggining. we don't know that - nor should we assume it must have been triggered by something "outside of time"
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Fluminator
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Re: Proof God is real

#7 Post by Fluminator » Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:27 am

locust wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:25 am
1. If the egg had a beginning, something outside of the egg triggered it.
2. The non-egg thing is by all practical purposes a God.
3. Therefore God is a chicken.
Almost there, do that with the chicken now and keep working your way up.
Doom427 wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:40 am
1. If it cannot hatch from its shell, the chick will die without ever truly being born.
2. We are the chick; the world is our egg.
3. If we don't break the world's shell, we will die without truly being born.
4. Smash the world's shell, for the Revolution of the World.
I'm doing my part by contributing to climate change which will be a revolution.
Bonatogether wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:49 am
Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm
1. If the universe always existed, everything possible has happened.
2. It is possible i did ur mom
3. Therefore i did ur mom
ftfy
Accurate though! infinity is a big thing.
French_boi wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:56 am
Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm
-snip-
Premise one is fundamentally flawed. You cannot assume that everything possible has happened - nor can you assume it to be possible for God to exist. It is also a little silly to think the universe must have had a beggining. we don't know that - nor should we assume it must have been triggered by something "outside of time"
If the probability is more than 0, and you give an infinite amount of time for it to happen, it will happen. Maybe not on this planet earth, but there will be another planet earth exactly like this but one where I did ur mum.

I don't assume the universe had a beginning. I give both possibilities. It either has a beginning or it is infinite. Both premises are accounted for.

If I can imagine a God existing, it's possible.

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Re: Proof God is real

#8 Post by Octavious » Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:50 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:27 am
If the probability is more than 0, and you give an infinite amount of time for it to happen, it will happen. Maybe not on this planet earth, but there will be another planet earth exactly like this but one where I did ur mum.

I don't assume the universe had a beginning. I give both possibilities. It either has a beginning or it is infinite. Both premises are accounted for.

If I can imagine a God existing, it's possible.
There are a few problems with that. The first is that if you assume a finite number of universes, typically 1, then it falls down. God needs to exist at the beginning to qualify as God, so even if the universe lasts forever there's just the single event at which God has to be. No amount of imagining after the event can put him back.

That problem disappears if you assume an infinite number of universes, of course. Then you can try the imagining God trick to your heart's content. The trouble is, of course, you can also imagine a universe pretty much identical in which God doesn't exist, which leads to the inescapable conclusion that there may well be a God, but He's utterly pointless in the grand scheme of things.
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Re: Proof God is real

#9 Post by JECE » Wed Oct 19, 2022 1:51 pm

JECE wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:27 am
Best proof ever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XmtW_fIj68
This is, hilariously, way more relevant to the discussion than it should be. :lol:
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Re: Proof God is real

#10 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:18 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm
1. If the universe always existed, everything possible has happened.
2. It is possible God exists.
3. Therefore God has happened.

Checkmate atheists.

(alternate if you don't believe premise 1)
I don't believe premise #2
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Re: Proof God is real

#11 Post by KalelChase » Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:16 pm

1. You haven't defined God.
2. An infinite set of even numbers doesn't include a 7.
3. If you can imagine God into existence then I can imagine him out of existence. It's a wash.
4. You syllogism is ridiculous.
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Re: Proof Fluminator is not real

#12 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:50 pm

KalelChase wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:16 pm
1. You haven't defined God.
2. An infinite set of even numbers doesn't include a 7.
3. If you can imagine God into existence then I can imagine him out of existence. It's a wash.
4. You syllogism is ridiculous.
@Fluminator, actually, he's got a point.

Can you define "God" please?
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Fluminator
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Re: Proof God is real

#13 Post by Fluminator » Wed Oct 19, 2022 10:19 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:50 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:27 am
snip
There are a few problems with that. The first is that if you assume a finite number of universes, typically 1, then it falls down. God needs to exist at the beginning to qualify as God, so even if the universe lasts forever there's just the single event at which God has to be. No amount of imagining after the event can put him back.

That problem disappears if you assume an infinite number of universes, of course. Then you can try the imagining God trick to your heart's content. The trouble is, of course, you can also imagine a universe pretty much identical in which God doesn't exist, which leads to the inescapable conclusion that there may well be a God, but He's utterly pointless in the grand scheme of things.
re paragraph 1, I see your point, but if anything can eventually break the time barrier, it doesn't matter at what point it escapes. It fundamentally exists unchanging at all periods of time. So something outside of time at the beginning could have originated in the middle of the timeline.
(I personally don't even believe the universe is infinite though, I go the other way)

re paragraph 2, I can't imagine a universe without God. Everything breaks down if the universe created itself or always existed in a temporal bubble. (And anything outside of time is eternal and basically God)
JECE wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 1:51 pm
JECE wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:27 am
Best proof ever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XmtW_fIj68
This is, hilariously, way more relevant to the discussion than it should be. :lol:
Lol, well it's in the definition. My definition of the universe is literally everything. So technically God would be a part of the universe and it's essentially the universe creating itself. But it only makes sense to me if God is atemporal or infinity gets funky.
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:18 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm
snip
I don't believe premise #2
Can you prove it's impossible for God to exist?
KalelChase wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:16 pm
1. You haven't defined God.
2. An infinite set of even numbers doesn't include a 7.
3. If you can imagine God into existence then I can imagine him out of existence. It's a wash.
4. You syllogism is ridiculous.
1. God would be an atemporal all-powerful thing. It would have to be a conscious entity to make it a God in a sense that's generally seen as a God.

2. It looks like a lot of people are going to the argument God can't hypothetically exist. Is there a proof for this I'm unaware of?

3. That's just proof it's possible for a world to exist without God. You're making the claim it's impossible for God to exist.

4. I will adjust it based on feedback once I learn more.

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Re: Proof God is real

#14 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Oct 19, 2022 10:51 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 10:19 pm
I can't imagine a universe without God. Everything breaks down if the universe created itself or always existed in a temporal bubble. (And anything outside of time is eternal and basically God)
If you don't think it is possible for the Universe to have either created itself somehow, or always have existed, then why do you believe that God has one or both of those properties?

That is, you seem to believe that God exists without having been created, and/or that God has always existed.

Why is it possible for God to exist without being created, yet impossible for the universe to exist without being created?

Why is it possible for God to have always existed, yet impossible for the universe to exist without being created?
Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:18 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm
snip
I don't believe premise #2
Can you prove it's impossible for God to exist?
[/quote]

I could have a go, but I do not feel under any obligation to engage in that game with you. The burden of proof in this discussion lies in the person making the claim that God exists, not those suggesting they do not believe this wild claim.

As Bertrand Russell said:

"Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense."
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Fluminator
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Re: Proof God is real

#15 Post by Fluminator » Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:34 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 10:51 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 10:51 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 10:19 pm
I can't imagine a universe without God. Everything breaks down if the universe created itself or always existed in a temporal bubble. (And anything outside of time is eternal and basically God)
If you don't think it is possible for the Universe to have either created itself somehow, or always have existed, then why do you believe that God has one or both of those properties?

That is, you seem to believe that God exists without having been created, and/or that God has always existed.

Why is it possible for God to exist without being created, yet impossible for the universe to exist without being created?

Why is it possible for God to have always existed, yet impossible for the universe to exist without being created?
Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm

Can you prove it's impossible for God to exist?
I could have a go, but I do not feel under any obligation to engage in that game with you. The burden of proof in this discussion lies in the person making the claim that God exists, not those suggesting they do not believe this wild claim.

As Bertrand Russell said:

"Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense."
By most definitions, I do consider God a part of the universe, so yes I do believe the universe created itself in that way. It's just that it has to be an atemporal force that existed for anything to make sense. But if definitionally it's better I say an atemporal aspect of the universe created the spacetime, I can work with that.

I'm not asking you to disprove God. I'm asking you to prove that God is impossible. That's a very different thing and you are making a pretty radical claim.

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Re: Proof God is real

#16 Post by Yigg » Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:18 am

*wags finger*

That's bait.

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Re: Proof God is real

#17 Post by JECE » Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:44 am

Fluminator wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 10:19 pm
JECE wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 1:51 pm
JECE wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:27 am
Best proof ever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XmtW_fIj68
This is, hilariously, way more relevant to the discussion than it should be. :lol:
Lol, well it's in the definition. My definition of the universe is literally everything. So technically God would be a part of the universe and it's essentially the universe creating itself. But it only makes sense to me if God is atemporal or infinity gets funky.
Fluminator wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:34 pm
By most definitions, I do consider God a part of the universe, so yes I do believe the universe created itself in that way. It's just that it has to be an atemporal force that existed for anything to make sense. But if definitionally it's better I say an atemporal aspect of the universe created the spacetime, I can work with that.

I'm not asking you to disprove God. I'm asking you to prove that God is impossible. That's a very different thing and you are making a pretty radical claim.
Either you have an extrordinary capacity for doublethink, or you're taking being a devil's advocate to the point of trolling.
  • Asking somebody to disprove your God is the exact same thing as asking somebody to to prove that your God is impossible.
  • The concepts of time and infinity have no relevance to the proof laid out in that YouTube video. Whether your God is atemporal or not doesn't help you make sense out of anything.
As for a proof, how about this? If your claim is unfalsifiable, it is false. Checkmate.
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Re: Proof God is real

#18 Post by Bonatogether » Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:26 am

JECE wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:44 am

As for a proof, how about this? If your claim is unfalsifiable, it is false. Checkmate.
if your claim is unfalsifiable, it does not meet the standard of evidence to be used in any rigorous setting, but that doesn't mean it is actually false
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Fluminator
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Re: Proof God is real

#19 Post by Fluminator » Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:46 am

JECE wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:44 am
Fluminator wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 10:19 pm
JECE wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 1:51 pm


This is, hilariously, way more relevant to the discussion than it should be. :lol:
Lol, well it's in the definition. My definition of the universe is literally everything. So technically God would be a part of the universe and it's essentially the universe creating itself. But it only makes sense to me if God is atemporal or infinity gets funky.
Fluminator wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:34 pm
By most definitions, I do consider God a part of the universe, so yes I do believe the universe created itself in that way. It's just that it has to be an atemporal force that existed for anything to make sense. But if definitionally it's better I say an atemporal aspect of the universe created the spacetime, I can work with that.

I'm not asking you to disprove God. I'm asking you to prove that God is impossible. That's a very different thing and you are making a pretty radical claim.
Either you have an extrordinary capacity for doublethink, or you're taking being a devil's advocate to the point of trolling.
  • Asking somebody to disprove your God is the exact same thing as asking somebody to to prove that your God is impossible.
  • The concepts of time and infinity have no relevance to the proof laid out in that YouTube video. Whether your God is atemporal or not doesn't help you make sense out of anything.
As for a proof, how about this? If your claim is unfalsifiable, it is false. Checkmate.
"God is impossible" is radically different from "God doesn't exist". If you don't see that I'm not sure where to go from there.

Compare
"There is not a flying spaghetti monster" to "A flying spaghetti monster is impossible"

Will respond to rest soon

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Re: Proof God is real

#20 Post by JECE » Thu Oct 20, 2022 3:30 am

Bonatogether wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:26 am
JECE wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:44 am

As for a proof, how about this? If your claim is unfalsifiable, it is false. Checkmate.
if your claim is unfalsifiable, it does not meet the standard of evidence to be used in any rigorous setting, but that doesn't mean it is actually false
A claim that we know will forever be unfalsifiable is highly suspect since the claim was presumably designed to be unfalsifiable, and in any case a claim that will eternally be impossible to investigate cannot meaningfully be debated.
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