What makes your life worth living?

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Fluminator
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#41 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:33 pm

I'll give the Christian interpretation since you don't fully understand their religious mythos and interpretation of God.

The Bible's creation myth for humans starts with a earth full of animals/plants/water/all the rest. God (or the Creator) wanted a special species in His image. This was essentially a higher state of consciousness and self awareness, it's up for debate exactly what this is. It's sort of like the philosophical question of what exactly separates us from animals.

Originally humans still weren't that separate from animals though, they didn't wear clothes, were unashamed of nakedness, and had no concept on what was right and wrong. Evil and Good wasn't even really a concept. (Like we don't consider mosquitos as evil creatures for biting us because there is no concept to them)

Eventually though, humans were given a choice. There was a "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and humans had the choice to eat from it. Up to this point they just trusted God's definitions, but humans were given the choice to seize autonomy and live by their own standards of good and evil, separate from God. The immediate next stories in the Bible show humans suck after they started going their own way. As a result suffering takes root.

Why did God allow humans to go this route? Why let them "eat the fruit" in the first place? It's not an easy question, but despite all the suffering, I'd still rather be a miserable human than a happy pig/cow/monkey etc. so perhaps it was a necessary step in our growth as a species even if it's an unpleasant one.

The Christian tradition gives an out from this human-ruled world and it even believes God personally and literally experienced all the suffering of the world in the manner through a human thought to be Jesus and to take upon Himself all the pain ever experienced. (Which if true would be a bit comforting knowing every misery is something God literally experiences with us)

Christians also believe God essentially is with us in the Holy Spirit if we invite it to help us through our suffering in this earthly transition phase. It's not there for people who don't want it though.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#42 Post by Octavious » Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:35 pm

The follow up, as you probably have guessed, is that if you believe the natural world isn't evil, then it is hard to justify calling God evil for creating it. If you believe that it is evil... you have my sympathy.
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#43 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:51 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:35 pm
The follow up, as you probably have guessed, is that if you believe the natural world isn't evil, then it is hard to justify calling God evil for creating it. If you believe that it is evil... you have my sympathy.
I believe that it is replete with numerous examples of needless suffering and pain. If this is simply because the natural world is a product of chance - then so be it, but if you tell me that the natural world was carefully created by a benign, loving, perfect being, then I find that fundamentally impossible to reconcile.
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#44 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:55 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:33 pm

But the natural world, with all of its magnificence and cruelty, is the same natural world for both observers. So, I ask you again, do you believe the natural world, evolution, life and death is evil?
The problem with this argument is that you could present a similar argument thus:

1. Dave trips down the stairs because he is being clumsy, and breaks his left ankle.

2. I push Dave down the stairs on purpose, causing him to break his left ankle.

Dave's ankle injury is the same in both cases.
Therefore in (2), I did nothing evil.
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#45 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:58 pm

Note that the construction of the argument is the same, in the sense that Octavious is saying, in effect:

Scenario (1): The natural world is full of pain and death and suffering; it came to be this way by random chance.

Scenario (2): The natural world is full of pain and death and suffering; it came to be this way because God specifically made it so, on purpose.

The natural world is full of the same pain and death and suffering in both cases.
Therefore in (2), God didn't do anything nasty.

I purport that this argument is nonsense.
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#46 Post by Octavious » Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:05 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:55 pm
Octavious wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:33 pm

But the natural world, with all of its magnificence and cruelty, is the same natural world for both observers. So, I ask you again, do you believe the natural world, evolution, life and death is evil?
The problem with this argument is that you could present a similar argument thus:

1. Dave trips down the stairs because he is being clumsy, and breaks his left ankle.

2. I push Dave down the stairs on purpose, causing him to break his left ankle.

Dave's ankle injury is the same in both cases.
Therefore in (2), I did nothing evil.
Perhaps the word evil is causing us unnecessary problems. Let's replace it with hate, as it is easy to understand hating a broken leg regardless of the motivation or lack thereof behind it.

Do you hate the natural world?
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#47 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:52 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:05 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:55 pm
Octavious wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:33 pm

But the natural world, with all of its magnificence and cruelty, is the same natural world for both observers. So, I ask you again, do you believe the natural world, evolution, life and death is evil?
The problem with this argument is that you could present a similar argument thus:

1. Dave trips down the stairs because he is being clumsy, and breaks his left ankle.

2. I push Dave down the stairs on purpose, causing him to break his left ankle.

Dave's ankle injury is the same in both cases.
Therefore in (2), I did nothing evil.
Perhaps the word evil is causing us unnecessary problems. Let's replace it with hate, as it is easy to understand hating a broken leg regardless of the motivation or lack thereof behind it.

Do you hate the natural world?
No, because I don't believe it is the result of a planned design by an omnipotent being.

If I did have any reason to think that the world was made by some kind of omnipotent being, my view might be different.
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#48 Post by Octavious » Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:02 pm

Why? Surely it is either hateful or it isn't, regardless of motivation?
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#49 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:15 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:02 pm
Why? Surely it is either hateful or it isn't, regardless of motivation?
No. Of course not. Pushing someone down the stairs with the intention of harming them might be called a hateful act. Someone tripping down the stairs and sustaining the same injury would not be the result of any hateful act. You are trying to score silly debating points against me by using arguments designed to trap me, but I am not interested in your games.
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#50 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:23 pm

Can I ask why death is a bad thing Jamiet?

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#51 Post by Octavious » Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:39 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:15 pm
Octavious wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:02 pm
Why? Surely it is either hateful or it isn't, regardless of motivation?
No. Of course not. Pushing someone down the stairs with the intention of harming them might be called a hateful act. Someone tripping down the stairs and sustaining the same injury would not be the result of any hateful act. You are trying to score silly debating points against me by using arguments designed to trap me, but I am not interested in your games.
You're focusing on the motivation which is a dead end as far as the discussion goes, as you could argue that God acts from the best interests of all which we simply don't understand from our limited perspective, or you could simply argue that he's cruel. And as His motivation is completely unknowable that's the end of it.

But you can say whether or not you hate the result regardless of the motivation of the possible actor. Do you hate broken legs? Do you hate the natural world?
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#52 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:39 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:23 pm
Can I ask why death is a bad thing Jamiet?
You'd like to know why the death of a small child from malaria is a "bad thing" ?

This is something you'd like to have explained to you, is that correct?
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#53 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:43 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:39 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:15 pm
Octavious wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:02 pm
Why? Surely it is either hateful or it isn't, regardless of motivation?
No. Of course not. Pushing someone down the stairs with the intention of harming them might be called a hateful act. Someone tripping down the stairs and sustaining the same injury would not be the result of any hateful act. You are trying to score silly debating points against me by using arguments designed to trap me, but I am not interested in your games.
You're focusing on the motivation which is a dead end as far as the discussion goes, as you could argue that God acts from the best interests of all which we simply don't understand from our limited perspective, or you could simply argue that he's cruel. And as His motivation is completely unknowable that's the end of it.

But you can say whether or not you hate the result regardless of the motivation of the possible actor. Do you hate broken legs? Do you hate the natural world?
I have had a broken arm, twice actually. I hated having a broken arm. I am willing to assume that I would also hate having a broken leg.

I do not "hate the natural world" but I repeat that I do not hate the natural world because I assume it to have occurred by chance. I repeat that part because it is important to my answer.

You are arguing that the motivation of the possible actor is irrelevant. I dispute that argument, since we got to this point due to my reaction to someone claiming that God is all loving. So they were talking about God's motivation, and claiming to know what it was. You are saying that person was wrong - but it was the source of this part of the discussion, so it is relevant.
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#54 Post by Crazy Anglican » Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:05 pm

@learnedsloth

How dare you answer the OP's question honestly and just as he asked it? You sir, awaken the ire of the internet trolls ;-)

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#55 Post by Crazy Anglican » Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:30 pm

As to making life worth living,

It was a good weekend:

I went to the wedding of a good friend's daughter. Lovely young lady, I remember the first time I laid eyes on her, in an incubator, hours after she was born. Her sister served as matron of honor and is sadly going through a divorce, so she needed someone to watch her three year old while she attended to wedding duties. So, we took him to dinner and lunch the next day. Little thief took my French fries with reckless abandon. Then we chased him around the local science museum. Introduced him to Darrell who was patiently pulling a carriage down the street for his driver and a couple of tourists. Made race car noises as we hit cracks in the sidewalk. Kept him in constant motion for about three hours then gave him a sugary snack. One the sugar crash hit, he was out like a light for two hours; just in time to get him ready for the ceremony.

Arriving there we sat with members of one of the martial arts organization with which I am affiliated. We had quite the good time talking, eating, dancing, and toasting the happy couple. After it was over we were informed the the venue staff was going home and we should tidy up the place. My boys and I and several members of the above mentioned organization helped to pack up the place and got back to the hotel late and exhausted. In short, I felt needed and was happy to help wherever I could and can't think of a wedding I have enjoyed more (except my own, of course).

So, Yeah, for me I do think that the people around me with whom I have relationships do make life worth living. Through good times and bad, it is good to have that support. When my mother passed away this past year, the very same family with whom I celebrated last weekend, handled everything at my home allowing me to mourn with my family.
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#56 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:33 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:39 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:23 pm
Can I ask why death is a bad thing Jamiet?
You'd like to know why the death of a small child from malaria is a "bad thing" ?

This is something you'd like to have explained to you, is that correct?
Yes please.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#57 Post by JRoz » Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:50 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:44 am
JRoz wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:32 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:03 pm


Bullshit, nonsense, hogswallop.

The concept of a loving, redeeming God is inconsistent with God's slaughter of babies and toddlers on a regular basis. Either God does not exist or he is evil based on his own capricious demands. Horrible.

Do what you want.
With love in your heart.
If this is your understanding of God I would highly encourage you to read the Bible, as you will discover that this is not the God of the Bible. God is sovereign over all creation and all knowing, but He is not the one who perpetrates the evil you speak of.

The very fact that God sent His only son, Jesus, to die on the cross so that all who believe will have a right relationship with Him shows that God cannot be evil. In fact sending His only son to die as an atoning sacrifice for our sins, even though we did not love Him and rebel against Him, is love itself.
I would highly encourage you to look at the world around you, in which babies and infants die painful deaths in their dozens every day, and ask yourself "why does God will this?"

You will tell me, of course, that these babies and toddlers, who God deems fit to die painful, horrible deaths, are sinners, due to original sin.

I say, you can fuck off.
Your assumption is that God is morally responsible for humanity's suffering, when in fact it is a our sin that causes us to suffer. This is a massive topic but I'll give a short answer. It is clear that God takes no delight in humanity's suffering. There are many verses that affirm this, two being Laminations 3:31-33 and Ezekiel 18:32. One of the reasons why God sent Jesus to die so that there will come a time where all sorrow, pain, and suffering comes to an end for eternity.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#58 Post by JRoz » Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:56 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:47 am
JRoz wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:32 am
In fact sending His only son to die as an atoning sacrifice for our sins, even though we did not love Him and rebel against Him, is love itself.
Also, even just figuratively, I'm amused you think that sending your son to his death is the greatest act of love.

What if I had a son, and I arranged for him to be killed, just to prove to you that I was a loving person? Would you praise me? Or would you think me a monster?
Your hypothetical situation does not work at all. Jesus's death on a cross is not merely a demonstration of God's love for His people but an act that brings salvation to those who repent and believe. If you were to sacrifice your son it would have no effect on your relationship/standing with God because your son's sacrifice cannot pay for your sins, as such it would not be a praiseworthy act even if it was done out of your love for another person. Jesus's death has meaning because as the Son of God, who is God Himself, and the only human who lived a perfect life, He is able to take the sins of mankind upon Himself, meaning all who repent and believe have a right relationship with God.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#59 Post by Tolstoy » Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:31 am

MajorMitchell wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:55 pm
Correction, it is an autobiography, written in code by Emperor Claudius and he hid it before his death, it was undiscoverd for ~1,700 years and is not "censored" or edited, changed by his successors
So Robert Graves is not the true author of "I, Claudius"?

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#60 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:21 am

JRoz wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:50 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:44 am
JRoz wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:32 am


If this is your understanding of God I would highly encourage you to read the Bible, as you will discover that this is not the God of the Bible. God is sovereign over all creation and all knowing, but He is not the one who perpetrates the evil you speak of.

The very fact that God sent His only son, Jesus, to die on the cross so that all who believe will have a right relationship with Him shows that God cannot be evil. In fact sending His only son to die as an atoning sacrifice for our sins, even though we did not love Him and rebel against Him, is love itself.
I would highly encourage you to look at the world around you, in which babies and infants die painful deaths in their dozens every day, and ask yourself "why does God will this?"

You will tell me, of course, that these babies and toddlers, who God deems fit to die painful, horrible deaths, are sinners, due to original sin.

I say, you can fuck off.
Your assumption is that God is morally responsible for humanity's suffering, when in fact it is a our sin that causes us to suffer. This is a massive topic but I'll give a short answer. It is clear that God takes no delight in humanity's suffering. There are many verses that affirm this, two being Laminations 3:31-33 and Ezekiel 18:32. One of the reasons why God sent Jesus to die so that there will come a time where all sorrow, pain, and suffering comes to an end for eternity.
Ok so just to be clear, if a 6 month old baby gets a painful disease and dies, this is just and proper, because the baby is sinful and deserves to suffer. This is your view?

@Oct: See, as I mentioned, here is a Christian arguing that babies are sinful from birth.
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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