Proof God is real

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KalelChase
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Re: Proof God is real

#41 Post by KalelChase » Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:27 am

KalelChase wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:16 pm
1. You haven't defined God.
2. An infinite set of even numbers doesn't include a 7.
3. If you can imagine God into existence then I can imagine him out of existence. It's a wash.
4. You syllogism is ridiculous.
1. God would be an atemporal all-powerful thing. It would have to be a conscious entity to make it a God in a sense that's generally seen as a God.

2. It looks like a lot of people are going to the argument God can't hypothetically exist. Is there a proof for this I'm unaware of?

3. That's just proof it's possible for a world to exist without God. You're making the claim it's impossible for God to exist.

4. I will adjust it based on feedback once I learn more.


1. At the moment an atemporal 'thing' and an non-existent thing are the same, because we shouldn't believe something exists until we can detect it.

2. I've never ever said God can't hypothetically exist. You are attacking a straw man. I've asked about your position but you haven't asked about mine, but yet are commenting on it. I find this to mean you're not interested in discussing this in good 'faith'.

3. I absolutely have never made the claim that it's impossible for God to exist. You are simply arguing with a position you have no idea if I hold.

4. I appreciate you intent to adjust. It means there is an open possibility of honest discussion here.

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Re: Proof God is real

#42 Post by Fluminator » Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:53 am

It's hard to keep track of each person, sorry if I strawmanned you.

But isn't the larger point of 2 is that it's impossible for 7 to appear in even numbers, so no infinite set of even numbers will ever result in it.
Correlating that to "the universe being infinite won't necessarily produce a God if God is impossible"?
With so many other people making the God is impossible claim my mind jumped to that.

Most religious traditions have aspects of God entering or interfering with the timeline which would make it detectable.
(Most famous Christian one being Jesus)

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Re: Proof God is real

#43 Post by KalelChase » Sat Oct 22, 2022 7:26 pm

Check, no worries. I imagine you've got several passionate people responding to you.

You've described my #2 point exactly, even if there's infinity universes that doesn't mean god exists.

It's my position that the person making the claim has the burden of proof. In this case the existence of a god.

If I had to make a claim it would be along the lines of, "Based on the repeatable, testable evidence we've gathered so far the only honest answer is that we just don't know yet (Agnostic), and in light of that statement I don't think it's existence is likely enough to believe it to be the case (Atheist)." And by the way that's not only a deity, this is my position on ghosts, visiting extra-terrestrials, big-foot, esp, astrology, crystals, etc.

Even if I did give you that a God exists I don't think it's likely the God of Abraham. And even if I gave you the God of Abraham, the one from the bible is pretty much evil in my book.

I enjoy these discussions but if it's not working for you just let me know and I'll bow out of the thread.

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Re: Proof God is real

#44 Post by Fluminator » Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:12 pm

Haha, I wouldn't make this thread if I didn't enjoy these discussions.
I agree there are three distinct things when talking about Christianity
1. Is there a God
2. Does God have the attributes of the Judeo-Christian God
3. Is this God worth worshipping

And each one is a very separate issue.
There's not much point in talking about 2 or 3 unless we assume the statements above it are true.

In statement 1 the definition is important. When we talk about God, most people assume we're talking about a very specific God (usually Christian or Muslim in the west). But premise one is only interested in if there's a higher power.
Considering you said you don't believe there's enough evidence to believe in visiting ETs, ghosts, or higher spiritual realm I'm going to assume you don't believe in any higher power. (correct me if that's wrong)

Maybe some opener questions so I understand you a bit more.

What's your opinion on miracles? Have you ever read "Miracles" by Craig Keener?

Do you believe it's possible very advanced and powerful aliens exist within our universe. (Not asking if they've ever interacted with our planet)

What's your opinion on a story like this? https://thepulse.one/2021/08/22/biologi ... -of-twins/
(Extrasensory perception seems to be real in some cases)

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Re: Proof God is real

#45 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:46 am

Apparently nothing I've said is important any more. Enjoy your chat.
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.

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Re: Proof God is real

#46 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:01 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:46 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:04 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:21 pm


There's no positive evidence for it though, so I don't entertain it.
Ok but you did not back up the pretty radical claim God is Impossible, so I'm content continuing to assume God is possible.
You haven't backed up your radical claim either, other than demanding that other people should provide irrefutable evidence to disprove it, which in itself is not any kind of proof.
I've already clarified I'm not asking you to disprove God. So I wasn't sure how to respond to this without just repeating myself.

What type of evidence would you want that would make you start to reconsider?
I know what evidence convinces me, but I don't want to waste time if it's not something you'd find compelling.

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Re: Proof God is real

#47 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:07 am

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:01 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:46 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:04 pm

Ok but you did not back up the pretty radical claim God is Impossible, so I'm content continuing to assume God is possible.
You haven't backed up your radical claim either, other than demanding that other people should provide irrefutable evidence to disprove it, which in itself is not any kind of proof.
I've already clarified I'm not asking you to disprove God. So I wasn't sure how to respond to this without just repeating myself.

What type of evidence would you want that would make you start to reconsider?
I know what evidence convinces me, but I don't want to waste time if it's not something you'd find compelling.
I have lived for 41 years without encountering anything that puts the idea of a possible God into my mind.

I think the concept of "God" is absurd. I cannot imagine "God". I cannot conceive of "God". I do not know what you are talking about. When you start to mention "God" my immediate reaction is that you are mentally ill.

Give me some evidence that God has a tangible form. What form does that take? Why have I never perceived God? What does God look like? Why does God not show himself to us mortals as he showed himself to Adam? If God can perceive the level of confusion about his existence, why does he not simply reveal himself?

If God is real, WHY ARE WE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION BECAUSE HE COULD JUST FUCKING PROVE IT ANY TIME HE LIKES, FOR FUCK'S SAKE
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.

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Re: Proof God is real

#48 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:18 am

Can we remove Christianity from the equation, and replace the term "God" with "Higher Power" for now?

Would miraculous events help sway you to believe there's a higher power?

Would you be open to advanced aliens existing within the universe?

Would you be open to things many people describe as "spiritual" or "supernatural" as things we don't understand yet because the universe is very complicated and we barely understand how it works? Would it sound less mentally ill then?

If you turned around and saw an angel appear out of nowhere telling you there is a higher power, would that change your opinion, or would you assume you were hallucinating and having a mental breakdown?

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Re: Proof God is real

#49 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:25 am

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:18 am
Can we remove Christianity from the equation, and replace the term "God" with "Higher Power" for now?

Would miraculous events help sway you to believe there's a higher power?

Would you be open to advanced aliens existing within the universe?

Would you be open to things many people describe as "spiritual" or "supernatural" as things we don't understand yet because the universe is very complicated and we barely understand how it works? Would it sound less mentally ill then?

If you turned around and saw an angel appear out of nowhere telling you there is a higher power, would that change your opinion, or would you assume you were hallucinating and having a mental breakdown?
You started our arguing for the existence of the Christian God.

Are you now abandoning that position?
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.

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Re: Proof God is real

#50 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:28 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:07 am
If God is real, WHY ARE WE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION BECAUSE HE COULD JUST FUCKING PROVE IT ANY TIME HE LIKES, FOR FUCK'S SAKE
Ultimately if you believe in the Christian God and you can't answer this question, I don't care what else you have to say.

You claim God is all-powerful, yet he can't even convince me he is possible. Pretty shit, then.
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.

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Re: Proof God is real

#51 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:57 am

I'm abandoning this discussion with you.
I did not start by arguing for the Christian God. The first post is any God and later occasionally into a monotheistic God. You keep bringing the Christian God into this.

It's really hard to believe your not arguing in bad faith right now.
I'm not abandoning a Christian God by talking through a smaller claim.

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Re: Proof God is real

#52 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:14 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:28 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:07 am
If God is real, WHY ARE WE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION BECAUSE HE COULD JUST FUCKING PROVE IT ANY TIME HE LIKES, FOR FUCK'S SAKE
You claim God is all-powerful, yet he can't even convince me he is possible. Pretty shit, then.
Why would God care what you think? Not a compelling argument to me.

If there would be one thing impossible for God though, it probably would be talking to you

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Re: Proof God is real

#53 Post by JECE » Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:12 pm

My theory is that Fluminator is actually irreligious, and that God sent him to webDiplomacy to test the faithful and troll the unfaithful.

Fluminator, what's a specific positive evidence you'd want that would make you consider that you're the spawn of Satan? The more specific the better.
See my full Profile:
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/profile.php?userID=17421

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Re: Proof God is real

#54 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:20 pm

To convince me I'm a spawn of Satan I'd need:
1. To get a more specific definition of Satan
2. Evidence that I am not my parent's kids and came from another source
3. Evidence that this other source is rooted in black magic occultism

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Re: Proof God is real

#55 Post by JECE » Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:27 pm

1. Satan the deceiver, who was created by God the omnipotent in order to more efficiently trick sinners into getting banished to the eternal fires of Hell. Ring a bell?
2. Humbug. You are the spawn of Satan, your parents' kid and Satan Himself, all three at the same time. There is no contradiction.
3. You need evidence that Satan is rooted in black magic occultism? Heresy!
See my full Profile:
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Re: Proof God is real

#56 Post by KalelChase » Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:45 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:12 pm
Haha, I wouldn't make this thread if I didn't enjoy these discussions.
I agree there are three distinct things when talking about Christianity
1. Is there a God
2. Does God have the attributes of the Judeo-Christian God
3. Is this God worth worshipping

And each one is a very separate issue.
There's not much point in talking about 2 or 3 unless we assume the statements above it are true.

In statement 1 the definition is important. When we talk about God, most people assume we're talking about a very specific God (usually Christian or Muslim in the west). But premise one is only interested in if there's a higher power.
Considering you said you don't believe there's enough evidence to believe in visiting ETs, ghosts, or higher spiritual realm I'm going to assume you don't believe in any higher power. (correct me if that's wrong)

Maybe some opener questions so I understand you a bit more.

What's your opinion on miracles? Have you ever read "Miracles" by Craig Keener?

Do you believe it's possible very advanced and powerful aliens exist within our universe. (Not asking if they've ever interacted with our planet)

What's your opinion on a story like this? https://thepulse.one/2021/08/22/biologi ... -of-twins/
(Extrasensory perception seems to be real in some cases)
My Answers/FU Questions
Agreed let's focus on #1. Higher Power is fine as a label - but to be more specific I think we should be using a Highest Power. Can we agree that what we would define as a H.P. is a free-willed agent with power to create the (an) universe (and any subset of events lower than that), or if ever proven universes/multi-verse?

My position is that I don't believe that the existence of a H.P. has met it's burden of proof.

Can we agree that a miracle is an event that seemingly breaks our current understanding of the the laws of science (physics/chemistry/etc.)? It is not something that could occur but is really, really unlikely. If agreed, then unless it happens frequently enough to measure then we can't demonstrate that it exists to a level that we should believe in it. Also, if it did happen in a way that we could confirm and measure some aspect of it that would in no way point to a divine source. The simpler answer is that something is going on that we don't understand and it's worth more investigation. - Never read the book.

*** I think off topic, but going to answer for the sake of completeness ***

I am unfamiliar with The Pulse, but from what I can see the website & the article you link to is full of conspiracy theories and pseudoscience, neither of which is anything to base a belief on. It mixes very layman terms around quantum physics with 'spirituality'. I think this is a whole 'nother can of worms and I think it will dilute our conversation so I'm going to set it down.

On your claim about ESP being 'real in some cases', I'd love a link to a peer-reviewed paper on a double-blind test that was published in reputable journal.

The jury's still out on very advanced and powerful aliens existing in our universe. I do not believe they exist as of yet, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. I think it's possible, but I also think it's possible that we're the first, or we're the only (which would be very sad, but is certainly an option). Unfortunately we only have one data point on a life generating/sustaining environment so there's not much to base a conclusion on. I'm willing to throw aliens and ghost in the conversation, but only as a benchmark of how gullible or skeptical people are.

*** End of tangent ***

My Questions for you.
A. What do you think, by a rough percentage, the chances are that there is a H.P.? 99.999%... 100%?

B. What is the best external evidence you think demonstrates the existence of a H.P.? By external I mean something that you see/experience that is transferable to my experience... i.e. I can do my own test and get the same compelling results?

C. What is the best internal/personal experience you think points to the existence of a H.P.? I'd love to hear about a moment or moments of revelation that solidified your belief to the % certainty above.

Thanks for engaging. I keep talking to people to find that next level of compelling evidence on this topic and haven't found anything new that isn't wishful thinking (I just want it to be true), or lame (what if you're wrong), in over a decade.

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Re: Proof God is real

#57 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:22 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:57 am
I'm abandoning this discussion with you.
I did not start by arguing for the Christian God. The first post is any God and later occasionally into a monotheistic God. You keep bringing the Christian God into this.

It's really hard to believe your[sic] not arguing in bad faith right now.
I'm not abandoning a Christian God by talking through a smaller claim.
Wait, so, when you originally posted this:
Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm
1. If the universe always existed, everything possible has happened.
2. It is possible God exists.
3. Therefore God has happened.

Checkmate atheists.

(alternate if you don't believe premise 1)

1. If the universe had a beginning, something outside of time triggered it.
2. The atemporal thing is by all practical purposes a God.
3. Therefore God

Checkmate atheists again
You did not have the Christian / Hebrew notion of God in mind?

You were only referring, in very general terms, to the general concept of a deity?
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.

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Re: Proof God is real

#58 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:23 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:14 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:28 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:07 am
If God is real, WHY ARE WE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION BECAUSE HE COULD JUST FUCKING PROVE IT ANY TIME HE LIKES, FOR FUCK'S SAKE
You claim God is all-powerful, yet he can't even convince me he is possible. Pretty shit, then.
Why would God care what you think? Not a compelling argument to me.
You people keep telling me that he loves me.

Doesn't that indicate that he would care?
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.

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Re: Proof God is real

#59 Post by ShankaDaWanka » Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:37 pm

Yigg wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:18 am
*wags finger*

That's bait.
Perhaps. But this is fun to watch.

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Re: Proof God is real

#60 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:03 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:22 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:57 am
I'm abandoning this discussion with you.
I did not start by arguing for the Christian God. The first post is any God and later occasionally into a monotheistic God. You keep bringing the Christian God into this.

It's really hard to believe your[sic] not arguing in bad faith right now.
I'm not abandoning a Christian God by talking through a smaller claim.
Wait, so, when you originally posted this:
Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm
1. If the universe always existed, everything possible has happened.
2. It is possible God exists.
3. Therefore God has happened.

Checkmate atheists.

(alternate if you don't believe premise 1)

1. If the universe had a beginning, something outside of time triggered it.
2. The atemporal thing is by all practical purposes a God.
3. Therefore God

Checkmate atheists again
You did not have the Christian / Hebrew notion of God in mind?

You were only referring, in very general terms, to the general concept of a deity?
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:23 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:14 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:28 am

You claim God is all-powerful, yet he can't even convince me he is possible. Pretty shit, then.
Why would God care what you think? Not a compelling argument to me.
You people keep telling me that he loves me.

Doesn't that indicate that he would care?
Over the past 5 years we've engaged on religion or god many many times, and I'm pretty confident every time I've ask you to stop assuming what I believe because I DON'T believe in what most Christians believe. I don't get why you are so desperate to put beliefs on me that I don't have? Are you so desperate to attack Christians that any vague mention of religion sends you into a rage? I am confident I've clarified this with you at least 10+ times over the years and every time you completely ignore me and continue to strawman me, and this last post is the final straw in my attempts to engage with you. I am curious if you've ever even read a single one of my posts?

What do you mean "You people". What am I? What do I believe? You don't even know despite how many times I've tried engaging with you on this topic and clarifying. I've tried to better understand where you're coming from by asking broader questions, but you just blatantly ignored it in this thread and were like "NO I WANT TO ATTACK CHRISTIAN BELIEFS SO DEFEND THIS YOU FUCKER". The only genuine post I've ever seen from you was the suffering one in the other thread which I still appreciate, but it definitely took a lot to get even that and I had to wade through a barrage of sarcastic and dismissive posts to get to it, and it's just not worth it for me.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt but the fact you're still trying to bullhorn your stereotyping and strawmanning on me even when I directly ask you to stop. I am completely out of ideas on how to engage with you and would rather engage with people like KalelChase who I will respond to when I get the chance. (At work right now though)

My final answers to your questions respectfully are
1. Correct
2. Even if God cared about you, why is it necessary he has you believe him?

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