Forum moderation/activity discussion

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Jamiet99uk
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Re: Forum moderation/activity discussion

#81 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat Apr 15, 2023 12:27 am

flash2015 wrote:
Sat Apr 15, 2023 12:04 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:07 pm
I don't even think this is controversial.

We fought the entire Second World War.

Nazis should die. No controversy.
What makes a person a Nazi? I ask because it is pretty common these days for people in political discussions to call someone a Nazi. Some left leaning people in the US believe anyone that supports Trump is a Nazi. On some days it is DeSantis who is the Nazi. I moderate my own Politics forum and seen this happen many times.

Even if we all agreed on a certain set of extremist opinions that makes someone a Nazi, are you suggesting that that should be enough to sentence that person to death? If yes, I would argue that this very much is a controversial opinion.
I agree that it's a difficult, sliding, scale.

You may find this helpful:

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate ... y/neo-nazi
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: Forum moderation/activity discussion

#82 Post by teacon7 » Mon Apr 17, 2023 1:58 pm

Hey all. I have some good memories here. I signed up for webdip a looong time ago. obiwan-since-oh-before-you-were-born.gif. I (and my brothers) have brought a variety of people to the site to sign up and play games. I like that the people who gather here tend to be a bit more cerebral, strategic, even open to philosophical discussions and the like. There's something about that habit of mind that I find a kind of commonality with, even if the commonality is in a struggle. Inasmuch as my 2 cents is valuable feedback, you're welcome to keep reading.

Thank you Kestas and Zultar for making this site a possibility. Also farewell to Zultar I guess. Sad to see you go.


Lots of good insights on here already. Here's a couple thoughts I didn't see posted yet:

:: The lack of images is a feature, not a bug.
Believe it or not, the no-images policy (and the old forum lol) is why I played diplomacy at webdip. It drove the discussion toward the verbal, the long-form "verbal era" communication that was of course the norm in 1901. It's a feature because... there is no shortage of places nowadays to post memes. There is a decided shortage of places where the mode of communication requires facility with words. In the same vein, I like that there is a forum at all, regardless of how outdated it might look. Discord/live-chat is great, but in my mind there's a place/space for forum speed conversation as well.


:: Godwyn's Law
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:05 pm
Since we're all writing essays.

I was banned from the site for saying it's ok to violently stand up to Nazis.

My position was clear: You're a an outright Nazi, you give up the right to be treated sensibly and without violence. People have the right to kill you because you are a fucking Nazi.

Wanna ban me again?
Not that anyone cares what I think, but statements like this are why I haven't bothered to log on in 2+ years, and why I stopped trying to get people to come play diplomacy here. It's a call for physical violence, coupled with a high degree of politically convenient equivocation about the meaning of the term. There are real neo-national-socialists, yet there are far more intellectually lazy people using pejorative terms in contemporary political discourse to marginalize their perceived opposition. I choose to think that Jamie's smart enough to see why it's an unjust equivocation of terms, so it's hard not to get a whiff of malice under statements like his. Either way, calls for violence like that are in the same class as actual neo-nazis themselves calling for violence. If statements like these won't/can't be moderated, then the forum is already 4chan-adjacent, and it's just not worth it to spend the time here. Like many fora for discussion, people are going to disagree on the content of all the propositions. That's probably half the fun. We'd be better off for having a robust civil discussion on it anyway. But in my decision making matrix, discussion in a high-pejorative context is pretty low-value. Perhaps that's a reflection of my own thin skin, idk. But that's the feedback.



:: I'd rather have a tone police than a proposition police.
Let someone make a ridiculous assertion, but demand that they do it civilly. I've moderated discussions in a variety of non-webdip places, and I've noticed that the line for 'drama' tends to be when these boundaries aren't respected: Ad hominemns, Fallacies of composition ("anyone who doesn't agree with my political position is a {insert omnimalificent boogeyman}"), mischaracterization, and low-context emotion-posting. Don't post when you're hungry, horny, or angry, or drunk enough to appear like the above. I wonder how moderation policies would play out if enacted along the lines of "these forms of argument/assertion are illegal" rather than "this propositional content is illegal."



:: Alt accounts reduce accountability, ironically.
An unintended consequence of alt accounts might be a higher volume of low-accountability posts, which solves for toxicity. I don't spend a lot of time on 4chan, but my impression was that it's the premier place for anons to be anon. Look how that ended up. When people's reputation are on the line, they're more likely to moderate themselves. When alts are the norm, there's a temptation to ignore the consequences of our speech and actions. People already say stuff to each other online that they wouldn't in real life. How much worse would it be when someone's character and reputation is even *less* impacted by poor self-discipline?

Accountability doesn't have to mean silencing. A major ban could be inability to post on the forum. Minor 'warning' bans might include things like "limit on posting rate per day" or "if you continue these ad-hominems or fallacies of composition, it's gonna affect your %RR."


:: ChaqaGPT
Chaqa wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:18 am
We should put ChatGPT in charge of moderating the forum
This is a fascinating idea! I'm very curious to see how this would play out. Also curious to see if chatGPT could analyze a block of rhetoric, reliably to determine the forms of argument employed, and how fair it'd really be.
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Re: Forum moderation/activity discussion

#83 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Apr 17, 2023 2:55 pm

Hey Teacon!

Nice to see you.
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: Forum moderation/activity discussion

#84 Post by JECE » Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:24 am

teacon7 wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 1:58 pm
:: I'd rather have a tone police than a proposition police.
Let someone make a ridiculous assertion, but demand that they do it civilly. I've moderated discussions in a variety of non-webdip places, and I've noticed that the line for 'drama' tends to be when these boundaries aren't respected: Ad hominemns, Fallacies of composition ("anyone who doesn't agree with my political position is a {insert omnimalificent boogeyman}"), mischaracterization, and low-context emotion-posting. Don't post when you're hungry, horny, or angry, or drunk enough to appear like the above. I wonder how moderation policies would play out if enacted along the lines of "these forms of argument/assertion are illegal" rather than "this propositional content is illegal."
You'll probably change your mind after reading these posts from a few months ago:

viewtopic.php?p=317439#p317439

viewtopic.php?p=317488#p317488

viewtopic.php?p=317492#p317492
See my full Profile:
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/profile.php?userID=17421

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Re: Forum moderation/activity discussion

#85 Post by Chaqa » Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:29 pm

JECE wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:24 am
teacon7 wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 1:58 pm
:: I'd rather have a tone police than a proposition police.
Let someone make a ridiculous assertion, but demand that they do it civilly. I've moderated discussions in a variety of non-webdip places, and I've noticed that the line for 'drama' tends to be when these boundaries aren't respected: Ad hominemns, Fallacies of composition ("anyone who doesn't agree with my political position is a {insert omnimalificent boogeyman}"), mischaracterization, and low-context emotion-posting. Don't post when you're hungry, horny, or angry, or drunk enough to appear like the above. I wonder how moderation policies would play out if enacted along the lines of "these forms of argument/assertion are illegal" rather than "this propositional content is illegal."
You'll probably change your mind after reading these posts from a few months ago:

viewtopic.php?p=317439#p317439

viewtopic.php?p=317488#p317488

viewtopic.php?p=317492#p317492
Three posts from one person.

Maybe he's the problem

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Re: Forum moderation/activity discussion

#86 Post by Octavious » Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:34 pm

What is the problem, out of curiosity?
I eat cookies to improve my snacking experience

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Re: Forum moderation/activity discussion

#87 Post by dargorygel » Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:58 pm

Octavious wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:34 pm
What is the problem, out of curiosity?
High rate of heart disease, high and growing taxes, and the ever uncreasing emotional effect of aging. Why do you ask?
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Re: Forum moderation/activity discussion

#88 Post by JECE » Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:47 pm

Chaqa wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:29 pm
JECE wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:24 am
teacon7 wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 1:58 pm
:: I'd rather have a tone police than a proposition police.
Let someone make a ridiculous assertion, but demand that they do it civilly. I've moderated discussions in a variety of non-webdip places, and I've noticed that the line for 'drama' tends to be when these boundaries aren't respected: Ad hominemns, Fallacies of composition ("anyone who doesn't agree with my political position is a {insert omnimalificent boogeyman}"), mischaracterization, and low-context emotion-posting. Don't post when you're hungry, horny, or angry, or drunk enough to appear like the above. I wonder how moderation policies would play out if enacted along the lines of "these forms of argument/assertion are illegal" rather than "this propositional content is illegal."
You'll probably change your mind after reading these posts from a few months ago:

viewtopic.php?p=317439#p317439

viewtopic.php?p=317488#p317488

viewtopic.php?p=317492#p317492
Three posts from one person.

Maybe he's the problem
Obviously so, but point being that policing the 'tone' of messages is not enough to make this Forum a nice place to visit.
See my full Profile:
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/profile.php?userID=17421

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Re: Forum moderation/activity discussion

#89 Post by Octavious » Wed Apr 19, 2023 10:34 am

The forum has to be an interesting place to visit. Ultimately this is a website that hosts a niche game that glorifies, amongst other things, arguments, deception, and treachery. Nice is not one of our strengths, but curiosity, debate, and competitive spirit are
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Re: Forum moderation/activity discussion

#90 Post by Octavious » Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:32 pm

dargorygel wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:58 pm
Octavious wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:34 pm
What is the problem, out of curiosity?
High rate of heart disease, high and growing taxes, and the ever uncreasing emotional effect of aging. Why do you ask?
If only age truly was uncreasing... I get new creases every month
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Re: Forum moderation/activity discussion

#91 Post by Johnny Big Horse » Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:49 am

To me, I know, I am not a power user, but I will give my 2 cents anyway. No, I won't, because I know that I will be attacked as hateful. I like to go to FTF tournaments, when I am not banned, and I don't want to make enemies.

I think the hypersensitivity has killed public discourse. There are some very vocal proponents of silencing people who may not be whatever they call us, but who just have open minds and think for ourselves.

I hate forums now, and actually, this one at Webdip, I mostly avoid because these hypersensitive people are so infuriating to me. They find fault in comments that are not offensive. If I speak out, I am certain to be flamed... so why do it? I don't know how many are like myself. But I bet there are many.

You are in a hard spot here. It is a divided world between those who oppose free speech and those who just want to speak. Why would a forum owner placate those who want to oppose free speech?

Suppose for instance they were banned from these forums (I am not suggesting you do this), then they might find another forum to speak on, and I bet, they would eat their own, finding someone among themselves who was "offensive."

It makes me hate the world.
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Re: Forum moderation/activity discussion

#92 Post by Johnny Big Horse » Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:55 am

From the article referenced on the first page: https://unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how ... ty-spiral/

A purity spiral occurs when a community becomes fixated on implementing a single value that has no upper limit, and no single agreed interpretation. The result is a moral feeding frenzy.

But while a purity spiral often concerns morality, it is not about morality. It’s about purity — a very different concept. Morality doesn’t need to exist with reference to anything other than itself. Purity, on the other hand, is an inherently relative value — the game is always one of purer-than-thou.

It’s not just another word for ‘woke culture’, or even ‘cancel culture’, or ‘virtue signalling’. Even though intersectional social justice is a pretty great breeding ground for purity spirals, it is one among many. Nor is it confined to the Left: neo-Nazi groups offer some of the clearest examples of purity spirals: the ongoing parsing of ethnic purity into ever-more Aryan sub-groups. Perhaps the most classic one of all hails from Salem, Massachusetts.
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Re: Forum moderation/activity discussion

#93 Post by flash2015 » Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:32 am

Johnny Big Horse wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:49 am
To me, I know, I am not a power user, but I will give my 2 cents anyway. No, I won't, because I know that I will be attacked as hateful. I like to go to FTF tournaments, when I am not banned, and I don't want to make enemies.

I think the hypersensitivity has killed public discourse. There are some very vocal proponents of silencing people who may not be whatever they call us, but who just have open minds and think for ourselves.

I hate forums now, and actually, this one at Webdip, I mostly avoid because these hypersensitive people are so infuriating to me. They find fault in comments that are not offensive. If I speak out, I am certain to be flamed... so why do it? I don't know how many are like myself. But I bet there are many.

You are in a hard spot here. It is a divided world between those who oppose free speech and those who just want to speak. Why would a forum owner placate those who want to oppose free speech?

Suppose for instance they were banned from these forums (I am not suggesting you do this), then they might find another forum to speak on, and I bet, they would eat their own, finding someone among themselves who was "offensive."

It makes me hate the world.
The US has always had its religious people that more than in other western countries want to impose their ideas about morality on the rest of the population. Many believe they have a monopoly on morality. I am not a fan.

But it does feel like there is now a new moral absolutism taking shape and it is coming from secular progressives. I always knew there was some level of exaggeration, from climate change to BLM...but I thought to myself "But the overall cause is good, the people are coming from good intentions"...so I was willing to give it a pass.

But then things changed. Several months ago in one of the discussions I have periodically on other websites I decided some of the rhetoric coming from a progressive was a bit much even for me...so I called it out. This turned out to be the first time I would be called a Nazi. So I was really troubled when Jamie said confidently "All Nazis should be murdered". After having this experience I think to myself a little "does that include me"?

In the intervening period and involving myself in more political discussion I have realized that there is a real force trying to stop you from questioning any of the progressive rhetoric/dogma (which happened even here in one of the political threads). The force is incredibly strong especially for people or organizations that are seen as being part of the "tribe/religion" (e.g. the activists claiming that the NYT was transphobic a few months ago).

In my Political group recently a progressive was claiming "all right wingers are evil" over the trans issue. In trying to tell him to tone it down and I was called a bigot and a megalomaniac. In his eyes there was no middle ground - if I wasn't 100% behind the cause and all its rhetoric/dogma I was equivalent to someone from the far-right. This is insane.

I recently watched the Contrapoints video on the JK Rowlings situation...as I have liked some of her videos in the past. Essentially the argument was made that activists are justified in using "illiberal methods" to fight against those that disagree with them. "It is OK if we behave badly". Democracy is a compromise. We accept the compromise over the "tribal/political violence and instability" alternative. What is being advocated is to essentially throw that compromise away. These extremists don't understand the danger in what they are doing. It scares me a bit.

Anyway I had to get this off my chest. If this was out of line, please delete.
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