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My hardest one was England. I noticed France always seems to build a Bre fleet and go north. So I opened Eng. Basically, I couldn't get any momentum going, and got stuck in the corner.

RoganJosh wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:35 am

BobMcBob wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:44 am

Have you just had a really bad experience (or experiences) with Austria against the bots? Although I agree, if Italy attacks you straight off the bat in a bot game it is really hard to recover. Even just in normal gunboat it's really hard to recover.

Is there an example of someone who managed to solo as Austria in a bot game after being attacked by Italy in 01?

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=250825

But only because Turkey opened anti-Russia.

xorxes wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:42 am

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=250825

But only because Turkey opened anti-Russia.

Nice! Also, Italy still convoyed to Syria, and did not move into ADR + Alb. So, that is the first time I see an Italy that aborted its attack on Austria in 02.

RoganJosh wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:56 am

xorxes wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:42 am

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=250825

But only because Turkey opened anti-Russia.

Nice! Also, Italy still convoyed to Syria, and did not move into ADR + Alb. So, that is the first time I see an Italy that aborted its attack on Austria in 02.

Most importantly, Italy didn't open to Venice. It was clearly trying to do a Key Lepanto here. This was never an attack on Austria.

This was an early pre-upgraded Bot game also with Turkey opening against Russia.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=247371

Impressive.

I managed to get a 4WD after Italy attacked me, without Turkey opening against Russia. My problem was the imminent French solo, so I chickened out..

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=251697

Current Standings (if anyone is interested, also this is unofficial and might have some mistakes)

Bold have finished all three games, italics have not (number of games complete in brackets):

1) RoganJosh - 440
2) Scarabus - 420
=3) Genghiz - 400
=3) Xorxes - 400
5) bozotheclown - 340
6) rdrivera2005 - 300
=7) Floodgates - 280
=7) CaptainMeme - 280
9) Balki Bartokomous - 200
10) Claesar - 100 (2/3)
11) Chaqa - 80 (1/3)
12) tobieee911 - 60 (2/3)
13) KCelec - 40 (2/3)
=14) irilyth - 0 (0/3)
=14) edwolliver - 0 (0/3)
=14) Yuuki - 0 (0/3)
=14) TheGhostmaker - 0 (0/3)
=14) mhsmith0 - 0 (0/3)
=14) pyxxy - 0
=14) damo666 - 0
=14) badivan1 - 0

I've finally started, and am 0 - 2 so far. :^( Game three tomorrow!

Claesar wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:09 pm

RoganJosh wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:56 am

xorxes wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:42 am

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=250825

But only because Turkey opened anti-Russia.

Nice! Also, Italy still convoyed to Syria, and did not move into ADR + Alb. So, that is the first time I see an Italy that aborted its attack on Austria in 02.

Most importantly, Italy didn't open to Venice. It was clearly trying to do a Key Lepanto here. This was never an attack on Austria.

I would question the notion that nonconsensual invasion of your territory doesn't count as an attack just because you want to give it a fancy name, but it's true that Italy had weird plans in that game. Also Russia held in Warsaw, which is also unusual. So it was a strange game start altogether.

xorxes wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:36 am

I would question the notion that nonconsensual invasion of your territory doesn't count as an attack just because you want to give it a fancy name, but it's true that Italy had weird plans in that game.

A Key Lepanto is a well-known opening in which Italy moves through Trieste with Austria's permission. You can't get permission in a gunboat game, obviously, so it's interesting that the bots sometimes try it. :^)

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepanto_opening)

irilyth wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:10 pm

A Key Lepanto is a well-known opening in which Italy moves through Trieste with Austria's permission. You can't get permission in a gunboat game, obviously, so it's interesting that the bots sometimes try it. :^)

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepanto_opening)

I presume the bots only learned from Gumboat games. So they do a Key Lepanto because some human did it too. Probably most of those are mine..

Claesar wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:20 pm

irilyth wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:10 pm

A Key Lepanto is a well-known opening in which Italy moves through Trieste with Austria's permission. You can't get permission in a gunboat game, obviously, so it's interesting that the bots sometimes try it. :^)

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepanto_opening)

I presume the bots only learned from Gumboat games. So they do a Key Lepanto because some human did it too. Probably most of those are mine..

Bots learned from all press variants so it's not too surprising they try this on occasion

Key lepantos aren’t unheard of in gunboat. They just require a knowing and competent Austrian player to recognize them, as well as proper tactics and positioning by Italy as he needs to make it abundantly clear that he isn’t attacking. Sending one army to Trieste and the other to Apulia is usually a good indicator that he is trying a key and one can easily recognize that with no press.

bo_sox48 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:51 pm

Key lepantos aren’t unheard of in gunboat. They just require a knowing and competent Austrian player to recognize them, as well as proper tactics and positioning by Italy as he needs to make it abundantly clear that he isn’t attacking. Sending one army to Trieste and the other to Apulia is usually a good indicator that he is trying a key and one can easily recognize that with no press.

So it's probably more likely to work in high-cost or private games, right?

That’s probably a fair assumption but I don’t have any statistics.

bo_sox48 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:51 pm

Key lepantos aren’t unheard of in gunboat. They just require a knowing and competent Austrian player to recognize them, as well as proper tactics and positioning by Italy as he needs to make it abundantly clear that he isn’t attacking. Sending one army to Trieste and the other to Apulia is usually a good indicator that he is trying a key and one can easily recognize that with no press.

What is Austria supposed to do in F01 when they had no warning that a Key Lepanto was coming? Alb S Ser-Gre? Then Austria's fleet is out of position to help against Turkey. If the fleet moves to Greece, where does Austrian A Ser go to let Italy move there? And what is then Italy's second build? A Ven? It's hard to see any upside for Austria even if Italy miraculously ends up in Serbia. Doesn't Key Lepanto require prior coordination so that Austria opens with Bud S Vie-Gal or something?

Do you have any successful examples of Key Lepanto working in gunboat or for bots?

xorxes wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:56 pm

Doesn't Key Lepanto require prior coordination so that Austria opens with Bud S Vie-Gal or something?

The point of the Key Lepanto isn't usually that you coordinate it; Italy strongarms Austria into accepting a Key so they don't lose Trieste.

So yeah, it's worse for Austria than a regular Lepanto. That's by design.

(Am I wrong in this? Maybe I'm wrong - I've never participated in a Key).

Don't do the original Key Lepanto; do an improved variant:
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=222952

I don't like gunBOT games for exactly the same reasons i don't like anonymous gunBOAT games - you have no chances of divining what your neighbour is going to do. If you have press you can talk (that's what Dip is about imho), if you don't have press at least you have reputation, but in anon gunboat you don't have anything.
Which shows how amazing the bots are - they are just the unpredictable dirty dastard bastards you meet in any anonymous gunboat, and they risk to be more clever too
And when i see someone who passed the cutoff getting 0 in the final round, well, i suppose it confirms my stance

A true key requires that coordination, which is why xorxes is right that you don't see immediately successful ones in gunboat. The only way a key, or should we just go ahead and say "key," works in gunboat is Italy forcing it on Austria and Austria adjusting on the fly, which is pretty much impossible to do well unless Italy clears the Ionian in F01. I don't think I've ever seen that happen in gunboat.

The way a "key" usually goes in gunboat if Italy doesn't back off it after 1901 is Italy ends up in Trieste, picks and chooses when the right times are to tap Serbia for a year or two, and shoots Austria in the foot constantly until things eventually clean themselves up. Usually Austria is near dead or actually dead and an I/R develops. Can work out great for Italy, but obviously an I/R isn't a key.