Confusing idealogies

by **CaptainFritz28** » Sun Mar 31, 2024 2:20 pm

One thing that I'll never understand is the people that do worship Trump like a cult. They are few and far between, but they do exist, which to me is rather mind-boggling. I've never had trouble with denouncing them, as I think the point of this thread is. The only trouble I have is with the characterization that a majority of people who vote for him or are Republican are this way.

With this in mind, I will address the points here referring to the extreme minority which worships Trump in a cultish manner.

Anyone who says they are pro limited government, but then supports unlimited power to one individual, is a hypocrite.
Anyone who says they are pro free market, but then supports greater tax burdens, is a hypocrite.
Anyone who denounces authoritarianism, but then points to an authoritarian regime as an example of good government, is a hypocrite.

This means that, especially because of point 2, most of the Republican politicians are hypocrites. If that's the claim being made here, I wholeheartedly agree.
That said, unfortunately I see no better alternative, which is really rather sad to me. I'd rather have hypocrites in office who at least keep our economy strong and our foreign policy good than those who would turn America into Portland or LA.

by **orathaic** » Sun Mar 31, 2024 11:14 am

Is the Right Wing fascination actually not so much about the state, it is about having a single strong leader, which they see as able to do no wrong?

Like cult worship? It is fascist leaning (also an ideology associated with authoritianism) rather than Communist Authoritarian. But it follows all the typical fascist patterns that we saw in Europe in the 30s.

Big government can mean strong military and police to enforce order/prevent revolution from redistribution of property, rather than big social welfare programmes to redistribute wealth and prevent the social problems associated with poverty and thus remove the possibility of revolution by giving the revolutionaries a potential peaceful way of attaining their goals...

I don't think there is a contradiction there at all.

One is pro-wealth accumulation (the dragon like Hoarding which Billionaires demonstrate) and the other is anti-poverty. Very different world views.

by **orathaic** » Sun Mar 31, 2024 11:01 am

That said "Comminism" explicitly has only ever been formed by revolution taking power and redistributing wealth, usually in the name of the people but actually in practice the state was the main beneficiary, and the party/state.

One party states tend towards authoritarian, though examples like the Soviet Union and Communist China are states where the state was authoritarian and centralised before the revolution and they didn't change too much, except replacing (in the Russian case) the aristocracy with the tip echelons of the party...

So the question remains whether you can have Comminism without being authoritarian? The alternative examples or democratic socialism are following a different less authoritarian mode of development, not redistributing all the wealth, and (for example Sweden) retaining privileged monarchies which have long since lost their control and power of the state.

You can question whether they are communist, by definition, but they are certainly economically more equal and closer to the socialist ideal of a class-less society without the associated authoritarian character (which many, rightly, consider a part of the Soviet and Chinese systems).

The point being, American Right wing support for the authoritarian regime which Putin organises does seem at odds with the typical anti-Big Government position, whether you conflate Comminism/Socialism with Big Government or not.

Maybe it can be resolved...

by **orathaic** » Sun Mar 31, 2024 9:21 am

Let's be clear, any economic model can be authoritarian. Like a monarch with complete control of the state.

They could implement whatever type of system they wanted for the economy.

That said, a system where the monarchy retains power has to take into account the material reality of that state.

Contrasting the French and British monarchies, Britain tended toward spreading power out among the nobles to avoid rebellion, while France tended towards forcing nobles to attend court (and spending huge sums of money on clothes and jewels) to keep them under control (and thus away from their power base)...

Both examples had economic effects, but neither was the explicit goal of the Monarch. (Ie spending on French clothing and fashion likely had long term economic effects, and the spreading of power in the Britian is likely a large part of how the merchant classes grew and the society changed - far more gradually than the French revolution).

by **Crazy Anglican** » Sun Mar 31, 2024 1:12 am

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:01 pm
I don't think Biden is actually making most of the decisions and as such he's probably not a candidate I plan to vote for. I prefer my vote being used for Cornel West at this point.

Aww BB, weren't you the guy I had a spirited debate with back in 2016 (might have been another, but I thought it was you) and upon deciding to vote for Johnson you urged me not to throw my vote away? I Vote Biden, man. Any other vote is a vote for Trump.

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:41 pm
If your concern is caused by internet commenters and the news you watch, don't worry too much about it. On the news and on the internet, the most extreme opinions get the most clicks, and thus rise to the top of everyone's attention. That doesn't mean that the majority agrees with it.

Perhaps, but I still think that the most conservative move you can make is to vote against the candidate that actively sought to upend the peaceful transfer of power in 2020-2021. January 6th absolutely cured me of ever voting for Trump (I never did) nor will I vote a third party. Take a look at the solid conservatives that are voicing their opposition to the man. Cheney and Romney aren't nutjobs. These are long term civil servants who are blowing the whistle on their own party. Doesn't that concern you?

by **CaptainFritz28** » Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:37 am

Ah! Thanks for the clarification. Clearly I had a lapse in observation.

I recognized that Brainbomb mentioned Communism/Socialism, but I had thought the major points of his post were in reference to authoritarianism.

by **Jamiet99uk** » Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:16 am

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:38 am
The Republican Party of the United States has long held the position that Democrats were communists; fascists and corrupt. Specifically focusing on the argument that big government, big taxes and wealth redistribution make democrats Russian Thugs.

Now as Trump has become ever popular their love for Vladimir Putin has increased. I was at a social gathering the other day where a very conservative individual was complimenting Putin for having the guts to murder his political rivals, was saying America needs to be more like russia and torture terror suspects by chopping off their limbs and appendages. overall saying Putin knows how to get things done.

How did we get here? Russia is far from being a democracy but I thought the Republican party hated dictators, hated corrupt socialist countries and dispised big goverment. Correct me if im wrong but isnt Russia a huge government? Which is very corrupt and still mostly just its same old communist identity?

Why are Trump Republicans self identifying now as pro big government - moderate communist dictators now? Am I overreaching making this assertion?

I have highlighted the multiple references to communism (and one to socialism) in Brainbomb's opening post, for the benefit of Capt.Fritz, who apparently totally failed to notice them.

by **Jamiet99uk** » Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:14 am

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 30, 2024 9:37 pm
Fair enough. Brainbomb was referring to the authoritarian parts of Putin's regime, and Jamie responded talking about Communism. It seemed that Jamie was equating the two, but now I see that I misunderstood.

Uh, no. I was not the person that brought up communism.

Brainbomb made specific reference to communism in the first sentence of the opening post of this thread. I was responding to that post. I suggest you read it again.

by **Jamiet99uk** » Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:13 am

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:19 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:20 pm
You appear to be confused, Brainbomb. Russia today is not communist or socialist at all. The USSR ceased to exist in 1991. Putin's Government is quite conservative and has much in common with US Republicanism, in fact.
I was under the impression that Russia is still run by Oligarchs or an Authoritatian Dictatorship?

What does that have to do with Socialism?

Russia is technically a democracy but almost all political and economic control is the the hands of a small elite of wealthy and well-connected people. Similar to the USA really.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Sat Mar 30, 2024 9:37 pm

Fair enough. Brainbomb was referring to the authoritarian parts of Putin's regime, and Jamie responded talking about Communism. It seemed that Jamie was equating the two, but now I see that I misunderstood.

by **orathaic** » Sat Mar 30, 2024 7:33 pm

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:19 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:20 pm
You appear to be confused, Brainbomb. Russia today is not communist or socialist at all. The USSR ceased to exist in 1991. Putin's Government is quite conservative and has much in common with US Republicanism, in fact.
I was under the impression that Russia is still run by Oligarchs or an Authoritatian Dictatorship?

Oligarchs (whether they are still in power or not) are a very distinct organising principle from a single state communist party...

Comminism doesn't requires authoritarian dictatorshop, nor are the two equivalent.

Not sure where you would get a contrary idea.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:41 pm

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:01 pm
Whether we get along is very much irrelevant if the mass majority has these ideas.

I should explain that I am a lifelong democrat but I dont support Abortion; and I am mostly disappointed in where were at as a country politically. I dont think Biden is actually making most of the decisions and as such hes probably not a candidate I plan to vote for. I prefer my vote being used for Cornel West at this point. Hearing people talk about Russia like they are an example of what America should be like is disturbing. And I do wonder if Trump supporters en masse have these opinions now also

You're a great example of my point. The parties are much more nuanced than the media makes them out to be. I've heard conservative talk show hosts call all Democrats fascists for opinions that only a minority holds. I've seen liberal politicians label all Republican fascists for opinions that a select few politicians push for.

If your concern is caused by internet commenters and the news you watch, don't worry too much about it. On the news and on the internet, the most extreme opinions get the most clicks, and thus rise to the top of everyone's attention. That doesn't mean that the majority agrees with it.

I see reason to believe that a small chunk of Republicans do think that Putin's Russia is doing better than Biden here in the U.S., but I don't see reason to believe that that is a majority or even worth giving much thought to. Maybe the next few years will prove me wrong, who knows, but at this point, I don't think its an opinion held by many more than the wackiest of Republicans.

by **brainbomb** » Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:01 pm

Whether we get along is very much irrelevant if the mass majority has these ideas.

I should explain that I am a lifelong democrat but I dont support Abortion; and I am mostly disappointed in where were at as a country politically. I dont think Biden is actually making most of the decisions and as such hes probably not a candidate I plan to vote for. I prefer my vote being used for Cornel West at this point. Hearing people talk about Russia like they are an example of what America should be like is disturbing. And I do wonder if Trump supporters en masse have these opinions now also

by **CaptainFritz28** » Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:34 pm

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:20 pm
Countless examples of stances and policies and youll keep repeating “well goarsh theres wackos on both sides hurhuehurhry”

I'm sure mocking each other will really help us see the other side for what it really is, hmm? If your interests are merely to mock, then good day, as you merely wish to waste my time and don't really want to get to the truth of the matter. Otherwise, let's have a civil discussion.

Yes, I'm saying that the stances and policies you bring up are the stances and policies of the wackos. If I said that the Democrat party can be characterized as murderers because of the law in California that would have allowed the killing of babies up to thirty days after birth, you would say that a minority holds this view and it is not indicative of the party's position. If I said that all Denocrats want reeducation camps and to use the justice system to take out all their political opponents because some of the higher ups call for that, you would say that again, these are the wackos who are not a good picture of the majority.

Example after example, policy after policy, I could go through a list of things that you would think are a great mischaracterization of your party, because they are the stances and policies put forward by the nutcases within it.

What I'm saying is that the stances and policies you refer to are the same thing. Yes, there are extremists on the right, and I (along with what I believe to be a majority of Republicans) think they're fools.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:26 pm

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:18 pm
Republicans support ending the war in Ukraine by saying they would stop funding Ukraines role, that Nato is on its own and america would not get involved if Russia attacked Nato members, and the latest I have heard is they support Ukraine giving up large tracts of land and conceding defeat. Ive heard Republicans saying Navalny got what he deserved for taking too many risks and they dont sympathize with him.
ive heard the dont say gay law was devised by Putin, in Russia and is championed by the entire Republican party as a centerpeice of their worldview.

If you're referring to what people say on the internet... yeah. Some people do say those things. Perhaps it is enough to be worried, maybe you're right. I suppose I would compare that to Hillary Clinton talking about sending Republicans to reeducation camps, and all the people that have supported such things or pushed for it on the internet. I could also liken it to people calling for Texas' secession.

There are people that want all those things, yes. But I don't think that any of those examples are indicative of the party on the whole. I don't imagine you want to send Republicans to reeducation camps, following in the footsteps of Hitler and Stalin, just as I, a Texan, don't want to secede. It's indicative, rather, of the extreme division in America. Some Republicans think, "well, if the Democrats call me a racist Nazi, I might as well be one," and the same sort of thing on the other side. Are these real people? Yes. Would the vast majority of the party agree with them? I don't think so.

by **brainbomb** » Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:20 pm

Countless examples of stances and policies and youll keep repeating “well goarsh theres wackos on both sides hurhuehurhry”

by **CaptainFritz28** » Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:19 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:20 pm
You appear to be confused, Brainbomb. Russia today is not communist or socialist at all. The USSR ceased to exist in 1991. Putin's Government is quite conservative and has much in common with US Republicanism, in fact.

I was under the impression that Russia is still run by Oligarchs or an Authoritatian Dictatorship?

by **brainbomb** » Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:18 pm

Republicans support ending the war in Ukraine by saying they would stop funding Ukraines role, that Nato is on its own and america would not get involved if Russia attacked Nato members, and the latest I have heard is they support Ukraine giving up large tracts of land and conceding defeat. Ive heard Republicans saying Navalny got what he deserved for taking too many risks and they dont sympathize with him.
ive heard the dont say gay law was devised by Putin, in Russia and is championed by the entire Republican party as a centerpeice of their worldview.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:17 pm

Wattsthematter wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:38 pm

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:45 am

I was at a social gathering the other day where a very conservative individual was complimenting Putin for having the guts to murder his political rivals, was saying America needs to be more like russia and torture terror suspects by chopping off their limbs and appendages. overall saying Putin knows how to get things done.
This fellow is just an idiot. I've also spoken with a Democrat who complimented Sadam Hussein for his work and political methods.

There are idiots on both sides, don't let them give you an idea of what the party in general believes.
As someone familiar with rural Appalachia... there sure are a lot of idiots, enough for me to think BB has a point here

Sure, and as someone familiar with the urban centers of Texas, I've seen a lot of idiots on the other side, hence my statement.

If BB's point is to say we're all screwed and there's going to be a civil war because there are so many irrational sheep on both sides, then sure, that point could be made. But I don't think we're TOO far gone... not yet at least.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:10 pm

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:52 pm
Lets back up a second and just say that thinking torture of terror suspects is and has been totally acceptable to Republicans since the Bush Era. That much is true and we know this took place in Guantanamo during the war on terror. And the notion that America has gone soft and that Russia has the right idea on using torture and mutilation is just how you exude toughness.

Guantanamo bay is not something a lot of people know about. It has become more mainstream, but for a while it was covered up. And despite the Democrats promises to close it down, they've made no attempt to do so despite having 11 years of presidents in office.

But again, where do you see this in actuality? I've only ever heard that Republicans agree with Putin from... Democrat news sources.

Although I would agree with you on a point very similar to this: it seems that more Republicans tend to be for the use of the military for a wide variety of things which... really should have a declaration of war first. This isn't isolated to Republicans, I've seen it on both sides, but Republican politicians, at least, tend to be a bit too trigger happy when it comes to using our military. I wouldn't want to see a president MTG.

Confusing idealogies

Post a reply

Expand view Topic review: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies

Re: Confusing idealogies