War, what is it good for?

by **orathaic** » Thu Apr 18, 2024 7:02 am

Octavious wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 17, 2024 6:39 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:06 pm
So Israel provoked Iran by bombing their Embassy, what is the appropriate level of responce to someone blowig up your embassy and killing your citizens?

What would the US or UK do in these circumstances? How has this changed the media narratives /likely good of further deaths in Gaza?
The US and the UK generally speaking don't use embassies as military HQs from which to run paramilitary operations. There were very few diplomats in the consulate and rather a lot of high ranking military men, including the target General Zahedi, senior member of the Quds force that runs Iranian paramilitary operations in Syria and Lebanon. Using a diplomatic mission as cover for terrorist activities is an illegal act.

The appropriate response depends on what you want to happen. I frankly don't see how Iran's response was appropriate from any obvious perspective. It escalated tensions, it demonstrated Israel and her allies formidable defences, and it demonstrated the limitations of Iran's offensive capabilities. Unless it was a message from Iran's political leadership to its military forces that they should know the limits of their capabilities it doesn't make much sense, but that would imply that Iran is more divided and vulnerable than is generally believed.

The responce i would expect from Israel would the bombing Iranian drone factories. Because that at least could be seen as self-defence/pre-emptive strike. G7.

I doubt you would think it is appropriate for Iran to strike a military meeting of NATO high command or high level strategy meeting of US-Israeli military officials (say, in responce to an Israeli strike), so why is it ok for Iranian military officials to be targeted?

Sure, they can be considered a military target, which makes sense when you are at war. But being at war is something nobody wants... Apart from the people in Hamas who seek justice for Palestinians, and the Israel right wing who seek elimination of Gaza as an entity.

by **orathaic** » Thu Apr 18, 2024 6:57 am

Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 17, 2024 1:41 am
Or maybe Iran provoked Israel by sponsoring a terror group that murdered 1,000+ civilians last fall? Or the decades of support for Hamas and Hezbollah? Or their stated aim to get nuclear weapons and use them to finish what Hitler started?

Obviously Israel isn't blameless here but it's ridiculous to start the narrative at the embassy bombing, though that was indeed provocative.

You are right that starting the narrative with any one point is missing context.

But you are also missing the context of Hamas having their own autonomy.

Iran does support proxies in their efforts to undermine their enemies. But Hamas in particular exists and is willing to use force against Israel regardless of Iranian support. The lack of a peace process in Palestine is not something which you can pay entirely at Iran's door. Similarily Hezbollah in Lebanon have reasons to fight Israel of their own - see also the Israeli invasions of Lebanon.

It is only really the Houthis in Yemen who have been drawn into this conflict despite not having any particular/specific reason to want to fight Israel (in that their conflict has largely been with Saudi proxies, and an internal issue within Yemen, rather than being about Israel, Iran's support of them reflects their desire to undermine Saudi Arabia as the major political power within Islam... Which seems like an entirely different conflict for Iran).

It also lacks the context for why Iranians oppose the West at all, like why does the Iranian theocracy exist (as a backlash to CIA operations in Iran, and western exploitation of Iranian oil resources). It is arguable that Iran was actually correct to push foreign influences out and protect its own resource and people, it is unfortunate that doing so resulted in a proxy war where the US back Iraq in invading Iran and killing of hundreds of thousands of Iranians, and perhaps a million people in total (or maybe twice that, depending on who you count).

So yeah, their use of proxy forces to avoid a direct confrontation makes sense, and their reaction to decades of western influence makes a lot of sense. It is a shame that the Iranian nuclear deal was abandoned by Trump, when it might have been the begining of a new era of cooperation and peaceful relations with Iran.

by **Octavious** » Wed Apr 17, 2024 6:39 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:06 pm
So Israel provoked Iran by bombing their Embassy, what is the appropriate level of responce to someone blowig up your embassy and killing your citizens?

What would the US or UK do in these circumstances? How has this changed the media narratives /likely good of further deaths in Gaza?

The US and the UK generally speaking don't use embassies as military HQs from which to run paramilitary operations. There were very few diplomats in the consulate and rather a lot of high ranking military men, including the target General Zahedi, senior member of the Quds force that runs Iranian paramilitary operations in Syria and Lebanon. Using a diplomatic mission as cover for terrorist activities is an illegal act.

The appropriate response depends on what you want to happen. I frankly don't see how Iran's response was appropriate from any obvious perspective. It escalated tensions, it demonstrated Israel and her allies formidable defences, and it demonstrated the limitations of Iran's offensive capabilities. Unless it was a message from Iran's political leadership to its military forces that they should know the limits of their capabilities it doesn't make much sense, but that would imply that Iran is more divided and vulnerable than is generally believed.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Wed Apr 17, 2024 3:49 am

The fact that the attack did little damage is a testament to the fact that Israel is ready for such attacks... because they must be, due to Iran's terrorist proxies and attacks.

by **Esquire Bertissimmo** » Wed Apr 17, 2024 2:15 am

All the G7 leaders have begged Israel not to respond. At this point the risk of escalation seems somewhat low — no doubt Israel will keep up its not-so-covert operations to disrupt Iran, but no one seems to have an appetite for a hot war.

I saw a lot of mainstream news try to downplay Iran's attack because it was foreseeable and ultimately did little damage. I think that's not exactly the right way to think about it — this was not a particularly minor attack and the competent defense we saw was not guaranteed.

Iran's attack may have slightly delayed Israel's assault on Gaza but I don't see it having a major impact on how that war develops unless something crazy happens soon (e.g., more attacks from Iran, a real push from Hezbollah, etc.).

by **Esquire Bertissimmo** » Wed Apr 17, 2024 1:41 am

Or maybe Iran provoked Israel by sponsoring a terror group that murdered 1,000+ civilians last fall? Or the decades of support for Hamas and Hezbollah? Or their stated aim to get nuclear weapons and use them to finish what Hitler started?

Obviously Israel isn't blameless here but it's ridiculous to start the narrative at the embassy bombing, though that was indeed provocative.

by **orathaic** » Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:06 pm

So Israel provoked Iran by bombing their Embassy, what is the appropriate level of responce to someone blowig up your embassy and killing your citizens?

What would the US or UK do in these circumstances? How has this changed the media narratives /likely good of further deaths in Gaza?

by **Jamiet99uk** » Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:03 pm

learnedSloth wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:05 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:11 pm

learnedSloth wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:48 pm

Of course God has more to offer, even the way of salvation, which leads to the eternal life. However, just the fear of God should make people consider their motives.

Why should I consider my motives in the face of someone whose main motivation is that of fear? How is that any different from a child, who obeys their abusive father to avoid being beaten?
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever. -- Psalm 111:10

The fear of the Lord just makes you do it.

Well screw you and screw him; I won't.

by **learnedSloth** » Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:05 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:11 pm

learnedSloth wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:48 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:27 am
You think God is loving, but you think the only way to make people behave is to have them be terrified of him.
Of course God has more to offer, even the way of salvation, which leads to the eternal life. However, just the fear of God should make people consider their motives.

Why should I consider my motives in the face of someone whose main motivation is that of fear? How is that any different from a child, who obeys their abusive father to avoid being beaten?

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever. -- Psalm 111:10

The fear of the Lord just makes you do it.

by **Jamiet99uk** » Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:15 pm

If your "God" was real, and was as described in scripture, I would hate him. He is a capricious despot. His demands are self-serving, his works are inconsistent, his lessons are unjust.

Fuck "Him". I feel assurance and satisfaction in my conclusion that there is no such fucking thing.

by **Jamiet99uk** » Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:11 pm

learnedSloth wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:48 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:27 am
You think God is loving, but you think the only way to make people behave is to have them be terrified of him.
Of course God has more to offer, even the way of salvation, which leads to the eternal life. However, just the fear of God should make people consider their motives.

Why?

Why should I consider my motives in the face of someone whose main motivation is that of fear? How is that any different from a child, who obeys their abusive father to avoid being beaten? For me, the right thing to do is to rise up and overthrow such an abuser. Christianity thinks otherwise because it is a centuries-outdated philosophy based on the worship of a violent, paternal, father figure.

The imaginary God you idolise is a violent, abusive parent who rules through fear and pain. It is just as well "he" does not exist.

by **learnedSloth** » Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:48 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:27 am
You think God is loving, but you think the only way to make people behave is to have them be terrified of him.

Of course God has more to offer, even the way of salvation, which leads to the eternal life. However, just the fear of God should make people consider their motives.

Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 14, 2024 3:09 pm
Hamas members are amongst the most God fearing people on earth lol, doesn't seem to be helping.

Source?

by **CaptainFritz28** » Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:54 pm

I'm not claiming that Christians are perfect, I've never claimed that. I'm not saying that Christian nations are pacifist either. I also find it highly unlikely that those in the Middle East would ever concert to Christianity.

However, I do believe that Christianity tends a nation towards less violence, and indeed less war. I've found a couple of studies on this, when I have more than 30 seconds to write I'll find them and paste them in here. I've done so before, I think in this very thread, but so far back that I'll not make you find them again.

by **Esquire Bertissimmo** » Sun Apr 14, 2024 9:51 pm

Fritz you must see how dumb Slot's argument is too.

Christian majority nations have never been pacifist. Your contention always seems to be "well they aren't *real* Christians", a cop out that only underscores how poor of a path to peace religiosity is.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Sun Apr 14, 2024 6:01 pm

Well, one religion is wrong, I guess they all must be!

What a silly argument lol.

by **Esquire Bertissimmo** » Sun Apr 14, 2024 3:09 pm

Hamas members are amongst the most God fearing people on earth lol, doesn't seem to be helping.

by **Octavious** » Sun Apr 14, 2024 12:09 pm

I have to admit that the whole God fearing philosophy is somewhat alien to me. I guess you could fear God in much the same way as you can fear the sea or a storm. It's not out to get you, but it is inherently powerful and not what you can call "safe". But I can't say I ever have.

Still, so far so good. It was a significant attack but, unless Iranian power is considerably less than we've been led to believe, not designed to inflict massive pain. We get a good demonstration of Israeli defensive capability and allied unity, which will hopefully act as a deterrent for future actions. The flag waving lunatic brigade in Iran seem to be satisfied and are celebrating (which I find genuinely mystifying, but gift horses and mouths and all that).

One thing that has become apparent, in both Israel and Ukraine, is that missiles are a lot less effective than public perception would have you believe

by **Jamiet99uk** » Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:27 am

learnedSloth wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 14, 2024 7:28 am

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 13, 2024 10:51 pm
I want world peace and the end of all wars forever, for what it's worth.
So do I, and I see only one way to it, as there will be wars at least as long as people fear one another more than God.

You think God is loving, but you think the only way to make people behave is to have them be terrified of him. Sounds pretty abusive.

by **learnedSloth** » Sun Apr 14, 2024 7:28 am

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 13, 2024 10:51 pm
I want world peace and the end of all wars forever, for what it's worth.

So do I, and I see only one way to it, as there will be wars at least as long as people fear one another more than God.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Sat Apr 13, 2024 10:51 pm

I want world peace and the end of all wars forever, for what it's worth.

War, what is it good for?

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